Why can't any hosting service get it RIGHT ?

[klynam]

I've been struggling over my website for quite some time. Should I do it all myself? Should I download a template and modify it or go with a hosted solution? Flash or html? Music or no music? Blah, blah, blah. Due to my limited technical abilities, I've decided on a hosted solution.

Here are a few things I want:


A "custom" look and feel, preferably my own design, that I can change from time to time
Elements of "flash" or at least the appearance of (flash, javascript, etc.) in my navigation, galleries, etc.
Dynamic photo galleries that reconcile any number of images I upload
Multiple options for actually viewing my galleries (eg. litebox style, photo stacks, scrolling photo strips, etc.)
Complete control over all text formats via CSS
Fast uploading of photos w/ easy gallery management
Slideshow creation w/ custom parameters (format, music, transitions, timing, etc.)
A music player that supports (my) mulitple tracks and volume/playback controls
Web-based controls and content management (as opposed to traditional site management via code changes, ftp, etc.)
Integrated ordering, printing and fulfillment by a quality lab
Customizable sales system (price sheets, packages, discounts, etc.)


A few things I don't want:


I do not want to be a programmer and/or take tons of time to operate the site!
I don't want to be locked into a "contract" (I want month-to-month)
I do not want to pay hundreds every month for my online presence!!!


There are more on my "wish list" and I'm not trying to give an exhaustive list here, just offering a few ideas.

YES - I know what you're going to say: "No problem, (vendor-X) has all that, just sign up with them!"

Well, no they don't.

"Oh yeah? What about (vendor-Y), they do!"

Uh, actually, no they dont either.

"Then you need (vendor-Z), they really have it all!"

Sure they do, and for $3500+ a year they dang well better have it all.

The point is, each service has several good PIECES of the perfect hosting solution, but no one has it all; and the service each one has is locked down to their specific approach to a solution.

It is SO MADDENING!!!!

For instance, Exposure Manager (who I use and recommend) is a great resource for ordering and fulfillment. Pricesheets, packages, quality, affordability - all that is very, very good. But their online presence is SO restrictive. Yes, they have slideshows and "dynamic" galleries but very limited customization available in the form of header/footer and CSS styles. The overall format of EM is basically locked down. And when you suggest something, they basically say you don't need that because what they offer is all anyone really needs.

Hmmm, okay...

Let's move to PhotoBiz (who I also use and recommend) PB has cool flash-template sites that you can switch between freely. But again, they miss the mark in the details. For instance, the music player has no volume, playback, or track controls. And while they do offer 20-30 free music tracks for your site, the only way to hear the dang things is actually installing each track on your site pages one-by-one, regenerating your site, and clicking through the pages to hear the music. Can you say DORKY?!?! The online management tools are decent, but a little clunky. Color settings are okay. Font settings are abysmal. Want to "customize" a site with your logo? Sure, but they only support JPG (no transparency) so your logo shows up as a clunky box on the page. Not exactly a "custom" look is it? When you suggest something to PB, they always respond very politely: thank you for the recommendation, we've taken it under advisement. And nothing happens.

How about BluDomain? Lots of nice designs, but more expensive and absolutely the worst support in the industry (at least by all accounts on here, I have no personal experience with them.)

Creative Motion Designs? Expensive, and many of the same issues as PhotoBiz.

We could keep going, but there is no need. Each one of the services out there started out with an idea - a good idea - and implemented it. The trouble is, in doing so without true foresight as to what the market would want and how technology would change, they each painted themselves into a corner with their solution.

Obviously, each solution does fit a lot of clients, so they are still in business. But someday, a service is going to come along with true VISION that puts all these elements (not just my ideas, but many many more) together in a completely dynamic and flexible package, with quality service and affordable prices, and they will dominate the market.

In fact, talking through this has really helped me and I'd like to put some of MY money where my mouth is. If there are any developers out there willing work together on creating such a service, please contact me directly by PM.

[bacchanal]

TBH, you're kind of asking for a lot from one service, esp given that you don't want to do any custom coding.

You might look into squarespace. They do month to month and there is really no knowledge of css or programming needed. Their service is a little different, and you'd have to combine it with something like zenfolio or smugmug to get your order fullfillment. Their system also isn't as flexible as you seem to want, but they make up for it in security and ease of use.

You could maybe hire someone to do a custom wordpress template for you and then just set it up on a standard web host.

[klynam]

TBH, you're kind of asking for a lot from one service, esp given that you don't want to do any custom coding.

Actually, it really isn't that much to ask. ALL of these features exist in some form or another on these services. So we know the capabilities exist. It's the approach each service took for original development, and subsequently take to enhancement that inherently limits each solution.

[klynam]

Just spoke with a programmer - probably the first of many to come. Showed him each of the following and explained the strengths/weaknesses...

Exposure Manager
SmugMug
ZenFolio
BluDomain
Creative Motion Designs
PhotoBiz

His first significant comment was basically, "Looks like these services are all doing similar things in different ways. Each one has strong pieces, but no one offers all the pieces in one solution."

Exaaaacccttttlllyyyyyy!!!

Now I need $10K seed capital to start the development contract, against an estimated $30-$50K total investment for delivery....

(In case you're wondering, this developer works for my 9-5 employer and happened to walk into the office this morning!!!)

Which of course brings us back to the core question: Does anyone really care about this but me?

[tracknut]

I will hazard a guess. If there were consistent need and demonstrated customers for a "do it all " product like you're describing, then odds are some entrepreneurial type would have done it already. So my guess is that as in everything else, if what you want happens to correspond with what 90% of the rest of the world wants, then you're going to find plenty of solutions. But if you're in that 10%, you're in what is usually called "custom", because nobody can see how to make a successful business from it.

Dave

[Hurk]

Hi Klynam,

I'm not as experienced as many people here, but I hear what you are saying. I invested in FlickR, and found it to be too social. I checked out SmugMug and thought it was good, but it wasn't everything I was looking for. I also checked out BluDomain, Zenfolio and others, but I'm still up in the air. Nothing has jumped out at me and said "This one fits my needs".

I don't think my needs are that great, and if I combined what I wanted from each site, I'd have what I want, but obviously I can't do that, so I continue searching for the perfect photo host for me.

I'll keep trying...

[EnronRocks]

To start a competing program to Zenfolio or any site like that you need capital. Lots of it, the software design isn't where the costs end. Copyrights, Patents, Servers to host if you are doing it like Zenfolio or SmugMug. That is why there are still no complete solutions to what you are looking for.

To be honest, it would be a total waste of money to invest in building "the perfect" software, because there is no such thing.

[jbergdoll]

Take the time to develop your own site that fits your needs or hire someone else to do it.

[brecklundin]

You might look at ASPDotNetStoreFront (http://www.aspdotnetstorefront.com/) as a starting point for what you are looking for...it's a very advanced, stable and secure store front package that integrates with DotNetNuke which can function as your CMS...plus it's all customizable via XML and CSS w/o fiddling with the core code. It also integrates with all the major payment processors and merchant account systems.

It's not cheap and will still take some custom work but it's far easier than trying to get it all from ground zero. And a lot cheaper.

[narlus]

Here are a few things I want:

A "custom" look and feel, preferably my own design, that I can change from time to time
A few things I don't want:

I do not want to be a programmer and/or take tons of time to operate the site!

the two lead items contradict each other rather severely.

[klynam]

the two lead items contradict each other rather severely.

There is absolutely NO contradiction in these items. That is the ENTIRE point of my post.

Take the time to develop your own site that fits your needs or hire someone else to do it.

The point is not something just for ME - I can do that. I'm talking about a robust solution for MANY photographers who would rather shoot than deal with website issues - and would like that option for less than $2K-$3K-$4K+ per year.

To be honest, it would be a total waste of money to invest in building "the perfect" software, because there is no such thing.

So let's just shut down the trademark and patent office, there's nothing left to create or improve upon...:rolleyes:

[klynam]

I will hazard a guess. If there were consistent need and demonstrated customers for a "do it all " product like you're describing, then odds are some entrepreneurial type would have done it already. So my guess is that as in everything else, if what you want happens to correspond with what 90% of the rest of the world wants, then you're going to find plenty of solutions. But if you're in that 10%, you're in what is usually called "custom", because nobody can see how to make a successful business from it.

from my original post...

Obviously, each solution does fit a lot of clients, so they are still in business. But someday, a service is going to come along with true VISION that puts all these elements (not just my ideas, but many many more) together in a completely dynamic and flexible package, with quality service and affordable prices, and they will dominate the market.

There is a VERY TRUE saying among long-time sales professional that goes like this...

"People don't know what they want, because they don't know what's available."

The issue is NOT a lack of demand for the capabilities I am suggesting. The issue is a lack of market AWARENESS on the part of the market as to what is possible, and a general market WILLINGNESS to: a) accept what is made avialable to them as complete and sufficient; and b) accept denials from these services for every enhancement request.

I have never, E-V-E-R, seen a programming challenge that couldn't be sovled when one of the PROGRAMMERS decided it was necessary.

[narlus]

There is absolutely NO contradiction in these items. That is the ENTIRE point of my post.

well i guess you need to state it a bit more clearly...you want a custom design of your choice, but don't want to code it.

[SlowBlink]

You have some pretty specific requests for the service and it would take some pretty robust software to handle it. I don't need half of what you're asking for and the next poster may not need any of it. This is why good web developers make good money.

If I like a milkshake with 8 different flavours of fruit I'm not going to drive all over the country trying to find a diner that has it. I'll have to hire someone to make it or learn how to make it myself.

Remember with your needs there are a thousand other people with a dozen different needs each to build the perfect solution. A good designer/coder is the only way you get what you specifically need and nothing more.

[klynam]

well i guess you need to state it a bit more clearly...you want a custom design of your choice, but don't want to code it.

I'm talking about "design" in a VISUAL sense, not a programatic sense, and I'm not talking about A (singular) website. I can do a one-off website. I'm talking about an end-to-end web-based solution for photographers.

If I was personally capable of CODING such a thing, I wouldn't be venting my ideas to the world. I'd be developing it myself to bring to market...

[klynam]

Remember with your needs there are a thousand other people with a dozen different needs each to build the perfect solution. A good designer/coder is the only way you get what you specifically need and nothing more.

Apparently I am incapable of articulating my thoughts, becuase several of you keep telling me the same thing in reply. I will try one more time, and then give up...:rolleyes:

I am NOT talking about a one-off website. I'm talking about the online services currently avialable to photographers, and how each of them fall short in some form or fashion.

Yes, yes, yes...Each of these services has clear strengths. And enough photogs want these strengths to keep them in business. Service A is great at fulfillment and order processing. Service B has neat flash layouts. Service C has great pricing and file management. Etc., etc. etc.

I agree and that goes directly to my point (and frustration) which is simply this...

1. Each service is content with THEIR own solution.
2. None of them are interested trying to aggregate and leverage the strong points of each service into a single, affordable solution!!!

[SlowBlink]

I get what you mean but you started off talking about the front end as well. With the list of requests you started off with I estimated you'd need 4 or 5 mysql databases. That might be part of the reason this kind of service isn't available right now.

Hey I feel your frustration, I've looked at least a thousand templates and gave up trying to fins something close that was cheap and workable. And that's just the front end.

[brecklundin]

sigh....I had a nice reply, but you know what? not worth it...I see no other way to present the issue from a developer's perspective. can it be done? YES, will it be done? YES, will it be done tomorrow? NO...will it be done to satisfy one person w/o significant cost to that person...NO.

[narlus]

btw, besides taking a long time to initially load, yr site has a typo ("portrtait")

[sapearl]

Well, I've been sort of following this.....:rolleyes:.... and I'm a little baffled.

Yes, it would be wonderful if somebody out there built SOMETHING that was PERFECT that suited EVERYBODY. But the wonderful thing about the world and the creative aspect of photography, business models and initiative is that everybody is a little bit different in how they see fit to conduct their business.

You say:

1. Each service is content with THEIR own solution.

I don't know if this is true, but I'll take your word for it. They are likely content with their own solution because it A. Turns a profit for them B. Is relatively easy to manage C. Their employees are trained and fluent in it's use, D. It works, and D. It would cost money to come up with a new system along with the aggravation of a beta and break-in period.

You also state:

2. None of them are interested trying to aggregate and leverage the strong points of each service into a single, affordable solution!!!

That's a pretty big presumption on your part. How do you know - did you ask them? I'll bet that when their developers came up with THEIR solution, they believed it was the best for the money and delivered no more or less than what they decided they needed.

From their framework, your concept of a strong point may actually be a weakness or even hassle to administer within their business model.

Apparently I am incapable of articulating my thoughts, becuase several of you keep telling me the same thing in reply. I will try one more time, and then give up...:rolleyes:

I am NOT talking about a one-off website. I'm talking about the online services currently avialable to photographers, and how each of them fall short in some form or fashion.

Yes, yes, yes...Each of these services has clear strengths. And enough photogs want these strengths to keep them in business. Service A is great at fulfillment and order processing. Service B has neat flash layouts. Service C has great pricing and file management. Etc., etc. etc.

I agree and that goes directly to my point (and frustration) which is simply this...

1. Each service is content with THEIR own solution.
2. None of them are interested trying to aggregate and leverage the strong points of each service into a single, affordable solution!!!

[sapearl]

Btw Kevin, nice looking work on your site. Interesting that initial old time movie start effect.

[jra]

I think you're on to something :) I agree that the current offering of professional photography web building services (at least for those of us that aren't web developers) can be improved. I certainly hope you can come up with some great ideas and affordable ways to implement them. It's always nice to see new ideas and products that expand our options. Please keep us updated.

[klynam]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. First a few answers...

btw, besides taking a long time to initially load, yr site has a typo ("portrtait")

Thanks for the heads up on the typo, I'll fix that today. As for the loading time, it one of those hosted solutions I talk about so it's their flash, db, server(s), etc. and out of my control.

sigh....I had a nice reply, but you know what? not worth it...I see no other way to present the issue from a developer's perspective. can it be done? YES, will it be done? YES, will it be done tomorrow? NO...will it be done to satisfy one person w/o significant cost to that person...NO.

I've offered to front some of the initial dev costs, but no, I cannot finance the entire development. So I am looking for parties to partner with in a business venture. As of this morning, I have a PHP programmer on board and hosting solution in place. I'm speaking with a number of Flash/Action Script programmers this week and at least two major photo labs here in the Dallas area after the first of the year.

Btw Kevin, nice looking work on your site. Interesting that initial old time movie start effect.

Thank you for the good words. As for the movie-effect, it is part of the template I chose with that company. I'd love to share it - for that matter, I'd love to alter the parameters of it - but alas, I have no control over it...as I've been pointing out this entire time.


(sapearl - long post w/ reponses to my post - no need to quote here)

Great post - I'll respond later this morning. Off to the 9-5 now...

[klynam]

okay - continuing...

(I edited out the long, long, long reply I wrote over the last 2 hours because there's no sense in going on...)

Like I said in my original post, "why can't these services get it right?" Each of these companies has a great solution, but they drop the ball in the details due to a classic "good enough" mentality.

So why did I choose PhotoBiz? Good price. Nice templates. Decent tools. Liked the calendar/scheduling function.

Why did I choose Exposure Manager? Good product selection. Good ordering functions (price sheets, etc.) Fair pricing. Fast, hi-quality order fulfillment.

Do I support, use and recommend PhotoBiz? Yes!
Do I suppose, use and recommend Exposure Manager? Yes!
Am I happy with my choices? Yes, up to a point.
Would I like improvements? Absolutely!

So in the end, I'm guilty as charged for expecting too much for too little and I need to shut up; which I will now do on this post.

Now, I will start a new post to request features for a new photo hosting/ordering service. If anyone in the market cares to act on the posted requests, more power to them.

Thanks for playing along, please exit stage right to funway...

[poloman]

Your choices are clear
You can continue to scream
You can put up enormous capitol and time to engineer your chosen solution
You can settle on a service that you think may be your best choice
Simply choose.......

[klynam]

once again - another responder misses the point - I'm not talking about a solution for ME !!! I've made my choice (for now) with PhotoBiz and Exposure Manager.

I'm talking about ALL the hosting solutions out there that either: a) insist on sticking to "their way" instead of aggregating/integrating as many strong points as possible to create a truly premium solution; b) offer lots of features but charge such a high price as to make usage for most photographers unaffordable.

[poloman]

I look forward to your providing us with a solution.
It is action that makes things happen. :)

[sapearl]

Hi Kevin - hope it works out for you. Sounds like you're on track with those developers you've teamed up with. Let us know what you think of Photobiz and Exposure after a while.

As far as those firms that stick to their models - well, we've been over that. They are convinced that they are doing the right thing according to their numbers so they have no incentive to change.

As for your statement: "b) offer lots of features but charge such a high price as to make usage for most photographers unaffordable," I hear you on this one. I sometimes get contacted by these kinds of firms who feel they are the end all/be all at a terrific price. Again, I feel it's terrifically high except that they don't see it that way.

It's all a matter of mindset :lol::lol:.

once again - another responder misses the point - I'm not talking about a solution for ME !!! I've made my choice (for now) with PhotoBiz and Exposure Manager.

I'm talking about ALL the hosting solutions out there that either: a) insist on sticking to "their way" instead of aggregating/integrating as many strong points as possible to create a truly premium solution; b) offer lots of features but charge such a high price as to make usage for most photographers unaffordable.

[brecklundin]

once again - another responder misses the point - I'm not talking about a solution for ME !!! I've made my choice (for now) with PhotoBiz and Exposure Manager.

I'm talking about ALL the hosting solutions out there that either: a) insist on sticking to "their way" instead of aggregating/integrating as many strong points as possible to create a truly premium solution; b) offer lots of features but charge such a high price as to make usage for most photographers unaffordable.

I wish you luck but what I read in reality is no different then those who say "...I gonna show eBay how to run a real auction site..." every time some tiny issue (or large like more fees) gets their knickers in a twist.

When you ask WHY a company does not simply , to your words, aggregate, the features you like from a site into theirs...well, it's called either patent or copyright infringment. You would be surprised at things which would be infringing. People who do not see software as a creative work which combines art as well as technical innovation never really "get it"...there is so much beyond the simple functionality of the web app/site. Security being the biggest...I would say a true commercial startup would require $10M of investment capital and take 2-3 years to go live as a beta.

Of course you could do an open source thing over at somewhere like Source Forge...and, oh yeah, just wait until you try and get a bunch of developers to agree on the languages, coding standards, development environment, database platform, server OS...and it snowballs from there...it will take a year to design the functionality and create your API framework...

Like I said I wish you well, but truly I am not sure you fully appreciate the size of such a venture...it will be, if nothing else, an adventure you won't soon forget. Or maybe you will wish you could...hehehehe...

[totamus]

I am a web designer and photographer and I agree that there isn't a perfect solution, so I have been trying to make a good solution. Here is a link to a photography web site I designed, and am planning to market. www.AirFestPhotos.com. I would REALLY appreciate everyone's input on the design. Note that with each photo, you can view a larger image by clicking the photo being displayed. Thanks in advance!

[klynam]

Totamus - I replied to your post via PM...

[klynam]

I wish you luck but what I read in reality is no different then those who say "...I gonna show eBay how to run a real auction site..." every time some tiny issue (or large like more fees) gets their knickers in a twist.

You're right: Everyone thinks they have a better solution - including me. Some people take it to the next level...and the next...and the next. Some hit a few roadblocks and decide it's just not worth the effort. Others find their idea was actually not better at all, or completely unfeasible. I'm still trying to figure out where I am on this one...

The frustrating thing is being able to see a solution SO CLEARLY but having no way to actually make it happen. I'm not a Flash/ActionScript coder. I don't have $50K to launch my vision or buy into an existing company to affect change. But I do have a clear head and I know there are easily implemented improvements that are being ignored.

When you ask WHY a company does not simply , to your words, aggregate, the features you like from a site into theirs...well, it's called either patent or copyright infringment.

I understand you premise entirely, but come on. Are you suggesting someone has a patent on being able to upload your own background graphic to a flash website? (Service A offers it, Service B does not.) A patent on a mullti-track flash audio player with volume and playback controls? (Service C offers it, but service D doesn't.) A patent on different slideshow transitions? (Service E offers it, but service A doesn't.) A patent on letting clients select "favorites" on their proofing gallery? (you get the picture...)

I'm not talking about proprietary code and backend architecture. I'm talking about SIMPLE FEATURES that are selectively employed/ignored by each service out there.

This means two things: a) a critical mass of users want each one of these features or NO service would offer them; and b) everyone is missing out on other features or has to select multiple services (like me) to get a fuller set of features.

You may see this a differentiation within the market. I see it as problematic and a massive untapped opportunity for someone to capitalize on!

I would say a true commercial startup would require $10M of investment capital and take 2-3 years to go live as a beta.

Well on this one point I hope you are wrong. So far I've spoken with 3 programming groups. Each have quoted $20K-$50K in development and 2-3 months to launch. Provided: I pay for everything (no coop venture) and aggregate the best parts of each system into a detailed project plan with very specific scope and sequence, and provide all the user interface design (visual on-screen appearance, not code). Which I am very capable of doing. I just don't have $50K laying around.

Like I said I wish you well, but truly I am not sure you fully appreciate the size of such a venture...it will be, if nothing else, an adventure you won't soon forget. Or maybe you will wish you could...hehehehe...

I look forward to your providing us with a solution.
It is action that makes things happen.

Yeah, I know: put your money where your mouth is. I don't have the money. I'm not a code developer. I don't have any delusions of grandeur.

My only hope is the dialogue may cause some existing service to stop asking, "What can we get by with and still make money?" And start asking, "What's the most we can possibly offer our client's and still make money?"

We know it's possible - becuase so many features are already successfully deployed in the market. It's just a matter of some service choosing to be the definitive leader.

[sapearl]

Kevin - you probably answered your own question here. Many of us feel the same. We CLEARLY see the result we want, but can't make it happen. As stated earlier that's typically because of
1. Lack of capital.
2. Intellectual propery issues.
3. Copyright restrictions,
4. Coding that isn't cost effective.

If these improvements are so easy to implement, then why hasn't it already happened? Both the web and digital photography have been around for a little while now ;). - Stu

......The frustrating thing is being able to see a solution SO CLEARLY but having no way to actually make it happen. I'm not a Flash/ActionScript coder. I don't have $50K to launch my vision or buy into an existing company to affect change. But I do have a clear head and I know there are easily implemented improvements that are being ignored.
.......

[klynam]

If these improvements are so easy to implement, then why hasn't it already happened?

Same planet, different worlds.

You are asking this as a rhetorical question, assuming changes are not that feasible becuase they are not already implemented by these visionary developers.

I'm asking the question in earnest, assuming change IS feasible becuase I see them implemented in other solutions, and I know how reluctant developers really are to change the solutions they bring down from the mountain.

[sapearl]

So then, that is the $64,000 question - when you ask them, what explanation do they give for not doing it?

And no, not a rhetorical question at all. I work in a large communications company and we are faced with this sort of thing all the time.

Same planet, different worlds.

You are asking this as a rhetorical question, assuming changes are not that feasible becuase they are not already implemented by these visionary developers.

I'm asking the question in earnest, assuming change IS feasible becuase I see them implemented in other solutions, and I know how reluctant developers really are to change the solutions they bring down from the mountain.

[klynam]

The explanation I get (from developers) usually falls into one of three categories...

1. Defiance: Sorry, our system is designed exactly right and is exactly what every user needs. Use it and like it or go somewhere else. (can't do much with that can you?)

2. Denial: No one wants that...you're the only one who has ever asked for it...if more people want it, maybe we'll consider it. (really? how did it get to be a top request on your support forum???)

3. Glad handing: Thanks for that excellent suggestion, we've taken it under consideration. (lather-rinse-repeat with every request)

Although not a large comm company, I too work with IT staff every day. I understand legitimate technological and resource challenges. But I am always amazed what developers can do when THEY decide something needs to be done, and how everything else is - without fail - not technically impossible...just completely unfeasable, utterly unaffordable, and totally unnecessary.

[klynam]

Ok...potentially Game Over here!!!

For flexible, dynamic site creation and customization, David Jay at ShowIt has pretty much knocked the ball out of the park with his Adobe Air application:

http://www.showitfast.com
http://www.showitfast.com/sites/
http://tutorials.showitfast.com/#/products/

The only MAJOR things (yes, in my opinion) missing are:

1. Password protected client galleries
2. On-line proofing (feedback/commenting, rankings, favorites, etc.)
3. Print/product ordering/payment processing/fulfillment on a per-photo basis

The password protection may be there, but I couldn't find it. And he does provide a way for end client's to order custom books from created slideshows. But custom product ordering on a photo-by-photo basis is still missing.

Overall, pretty freakin impressive and EXACTLY what I've been talking about - except for the price...alas...

For my level of photography, and given what is still not available, nearly $500/yr ($39/mo) is too much money. Though I'm sure many pros will consider this an absolute bargain. But in the present state, even with no further enhancements, I'd pay $250/yr in a heartbeat. If he would package his other workflow tools with it, $500/yr would have photogs beating down his door...heck, maybe they are already!

I'm going to download and try it tomorrow. I may have a new site online tomorrow night. I may breakdown and buy it ALL tomorrow and be ready to take my online presence to the next level entirely!

Or maybe not...I'm nothing if not decisive...well, for the most part...

[sapearl]

OK Kevin, maybe I'm getting cranky in my old age, but after reading your post #37 I was a bit stunned. I don't see how David Jay has nearly knocked the ball out of the park for your needs if you found so much wrong with it.

But the really REALLY big reason you can't find what you are looking for is because YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR IT. You said so yourself. If you want custom service you have to design it yourself, or pay somebody to do it for you. And there's no shame in that - I feel the same way.

In all honesty, I don't like DJ's recurring montly charge of $39 either because I am a cheap SOB. But that is NOT a lot of money for the FT working pro who is bringing in a steady income.

You want to have it all Kevin, but you don't want to pay for it. Sorry if I'm blunt, but in view of what you've just said I understand what the real problem is now.

[A. Kaus]

For what it's worth, Smugmug may have a lot of what you are looking for . . . and it's not expensive. You can customize as much as you want and their support is excellent and quick.

[klynam]

SAPearl...

I didn't find THAT much wrong with DJ's solution. My point was what he has accomplilshed and made available, and the path he is taking with his solution; not what is still lacking in his solution.

[Jamie Holladay]

How about we keep this on the topic at hand and leave the cute remarks for another day? Sounds likes plan A to me. Plan B sounds more like a rod going through an engine 1/2 way around the track. Which means time to put it in the hauler and take it back to the shop. So I vote for Plan A.

[klynam]

You want to have it all Kevin, but you don't want to pay for it. Sorry if I'm blunt, but in view of what you've just said I understand what the real problem is now.


Two years ago, DJ's solution was impossible at any price - the technology didn't even exist. Had someone asked for that solution at $39/mo, they would have been ridiculed for wanting "everything for nothing." But because it now exists, such features and price point are accepted as completely reasonable.

Two years from now, who knows? I bet we can ALL agree there will be even better solutions available, possibly for even less money. But because such a solution doesn't exist at this moment, I'm ridiculed for wanting "everything for nothing."

How about I take the first step to reconcilliation...fair enough?

I was at fault from the beginning of this topic. I should never have said "Why can't any hosting service get it RIGHT?" As one poster said, that put me and the post on track as a rant.

I should have said - in all honesty - "Isn't it amazing what hosting options we have available? Join me in creating a post of your preferred hosting solutions and why you like their service best!"

Is it too late to change course?

[sapearl]

So long as people are still breathing, it's never too late to change course. No blood was shed :D.

This proposition of yours is VERY well stated. You have keen insight and some intriguing ideas. Unfortunately you have to polish your presentation skills. No offense intended, but that's probably why several developers blew you off. They may have been turned off by your delivery.

We live and learn.

.......I should have said - in all honesty - "Isn't it amazing what hosting options we have available? Join me in creating a post of your preferred hosting solutions and why you like their service best!"

Is it too late to change course?

[klynam]

Yes, I've been told that before. ;-)

Turns out a difficult pesonality with wealth/authority is considered to have dogged determination and vision, who expects and accepts only the best from those around them. While the same difficult personality without wealth/authority is a jerk who needs to work on their people skills. At the office, I'm the former. On POTN, I'm the latter.

Perspective is everything and perception is reality. But I'm trying to become better BOTH here and there!

[sapearl]

hmmmm.... interesting comments you make Kevin.

On POTN we generally cannot tell who is wealthy or not, unless that person states his or her case; we are all naked here except for the work we post - and some of that is REAL naked. The only folks who have true authority here are the mods ;). So, you have wealth in the office but not on POTN? Just ribbing you.... :lol:

[klynam]

LOL - I misspoke (again) - I am blessed in many ways, but not "wealthy" in a worldly sense. I was equating wealth/authority for illustrative purposes along the lines of the golden rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

[klynam]

So, changing course as promised...my favorite aspects of the two solutions I currently use for my online presence...

PhotoBiz (front end website / portfolio)


Easy to use site administration w/ a nice user interface (not perfect, but pretty good)
Many nice website designs to choose from
Free to switch website designs at anytime and at no cost (and the change is instantly live - pretty cool)
Reasonably affordable ($125 setup + $15/mo, includes 1 domain registration, and 200 photos which is plenty for my online "portfolio")


Exposure Manager (client galleries, proofing, and ordering)


Affordable (<$10 month)
Plenty of room (at my buy level) for the amount of photography I handle
Low comission on sales
Excellent quality products (prints, specialty items, etc.)
Fast, accurate order fulfilmment (yet to have a single client complaint)
Very robust sales administration (pricesheets, product packages, coupons/vouchers, much more)
They handle everything (from secure payment processing to delivery) and cut me a check
Reasonably easy to customize the look to reflect my front-end website


These two services give me a really nice looking, and very functional, end-to-end solution for less than $25 per month.

[sapearl]

Maybe I misunderstand, but does this mean you can only upload 200 shots/month at this level of payment?

......PhotoBiz (front end website / portfolio)

.......Reasonably affordable ($125 setup + $15/mo, includes 1 domain registration, and 200 photos which is plenty for my online "portfolio").......

[_aravena]

Yes, 200 photos a month. I checked out the place and even they can't word it properly. :rolleyes:

So yeah, $225 a year and you can upload 1400 photos. Good luck wedding photographers. You're site shouldn't be MySpace where you have to change it every month to keep up with Tom.

[sapearl]

Ouch - that's pretty restrictive and not at all attractive to my workflow.

I am averaging proof galleries of 450 - 575 per wedding, and sometimes as many as 3-5 weddings per month. This deal wouldn't even cover half a wedding, and at $225 a year then. You find this attractive Kevin?

Yes, 200 photos a month. I checked out the place and even they can't word it properly. :rolleyes:

So yeah, $225 a year and you can upload 1400 photos. Good luck wedding photographers. You're site shouldn't be MySpace where you have to change it every month to keep up with Tom.

[poloman]

Have you checked out Zenfolio?
If you want a super customized up front, you can do that and then link into your galleries on Zenfolio. You can also use your own domain name. Cost is $100 a year for a premium account. They have steadily improved the interface and services.

[cdifoto]

Ouch - that's pretty restrictive and not at all attractive to my workflow.

I am averaging proof galleries of 450 - 575 per wedding, and sometimes as many as 3-5 weddings per month. This deal wouldn't even cover half a wedding, and at $225 a year then. You find this attractive Kevin?
I don't think it's a proofing solution, just a portfolio. So the 200 photo limit wouldn't be a huge deal.

Even so, I hate restrictions.

[sapearl]

Absolutely.

.......

[klynam]

yep - 200 pics is pretty restrictive - and they also count any music tracks uploaded against the photo allotment (a 2mb music track = 10 photos)

I didn't really like that restriction, but this is the new me and I'm not going negative! :-)

cdifoto is correct: That's just my front end "portfolio" website.

All proofing/ordering is done with Exposure Manager - which gives me much more room to work with an (in my opinion) vastly superior ordering capabilities.

So for about $25/mo (on average) I have a pretty good front end, a pretty good back end, and a pretty good integration (visually) between the two.

Having said that, I just dont have the volume of business most of you do, so I'm no where near hitting any of the limits of PhotoBiz or Exposure Manager.

As an aside - and not going negative, its the new me remember! :-) - but all this IS why I started this thread the way I did: A little frustrated that I couldn't fine a single source solution in my price range.

[sapearl]

Sounds like you have a workable plan then Kevin - ;).

I believe that part of the initial problem is you made it sound like you had a really long laundry list of needs. In view of this latest I see that it's not the case. Looks like you're rollin' now......

yep - 200 pics is pretty restrictive - and they also count any music tracks uploaded against the photo allotment (a 2mb music track = 10 photos) .........ot going negative (its the new me, remember! :-) ) but that IS why I started this thread the way I did: A little frustrated that I couldn't fine a single source solution in my price range.

[klynam]

LOL - it started with the thought of single source solution at my price level, becuase both PB and EM are pretty close to that now. Each one is just missing a few of the other one's key ingredients.

But once I started doing research on what everyone ELSE was offering, it turned into a slippery slope (for me) laundry list of "why can't they" ideas.

So yes, I've arrived at a workable solution at a feature/value level that works for me.

Back to the new direction of the post...how are the rest of you solving this and what are the strong points of your solutions?

[cdifoto]

Back to the new direction of the post...how are the rest of you solving this and what are the strong points of your solutions?
I proof via my website. I only sell standard prints through it though. Custom work is phone-in, since you can't really automate the sale of an album, gallery wrap, etc anyway. They have too many configuration options and therefore prices.

Strong: Integrated. Strong branding. Costs me no more than my hosting. Reliable. I have full access to all files that make it work because it's mine.

Weak: Basic. Limited in functionality because I'm stupid with code/php.

[klynam]

Give yourself more credit cdifoto. Your site is very functional and code drives that! I wish I could write code...lol

[cdifoto]

I didn't actually write it. I just hacked the **** out of something that already existed as open-source. :D

The gallery is just a drop-in flash module from SlideShow Pro. The proofing isn't linked from the front end.

You can see how it works here: http://test.cdifoto.com.

Extremely simple, but it does what I need it to do with no additional costs. Each client gets a lastname.cdifoto.com subdomain that points to their proof gallery.

[Hurk]

I didn't actually write it. I just hacked the **** out of something that already existed as open-source. :D

The gallery is just a drop-in flash module from SlideShow Pro. The proofing isn't linked from the front end.

You can see how it works here: http://test.cdifoto.com.

Extremely simple, but it does what I need it to do with no additional costs. Each client gets a lastname.cdifoto.com subdomain that points to their proof gallery.

Believe it or not, your site is almost exactly what I want from a site. If I had any skill whatsoever in code, I'd try to mimic that... but I don't. Good work on it!