HS Girls Basketball with Strobes

[Big K]

Here are a couple of shots from an early season tourney I covered tonight. 1/250 ISO 200 f/5. Strobes mounted on railing about half way up stands and bounced off the wall behind where I was sitting.

[andrewdorian]

Wow - nice pics, did you work with the school beforehand to allow for the strobs?

[Big K]

Thanks. Yeah I contacted the AD earlier this week and talked with all the coaches and officials before the games. The only time I have had any problems was when I was shooting strobes direct and not bounced and the complaining party was the scorers bench. Go figure.

[HighPixel]

NICE! Very even with minimal shadow. Great job.
HP

[vetkrazy]

Nice job on the lighting. I have spent a lot of time on the scorers table in my time and can tell you that direct strobes are a killer. Everyone at the table goes home with a headache.

[Zivnuska]

I like the second pic.

[clarence]

NICE! Very even with minimal shadow. Great job.
HP

I agree.

The best strobe setup is one where the pictures don't look strobed.

The bounce used here makes this look as if it's simply a nicely lit arena.

8 PW's in your equipment list. How many strobes did you use here? 580EX's?

[Big K]

I agree.

The best strobe setup is one where the pictures don't look strobed.

The bounce used here makes this look as if it's simply a nicely lit arena.

8 PW's in your equipment list. How many strobes did you use here? 580EX's?

I used two, the Elinchrom Rangers.

The excessive PW's are due to a couple of reasons. 1) When shooting weddings or things like that, using the flash sensors to trigger the flashes would cause them to fire every time someone with a P&S took a shot which really gets irritating. 2) When using the 580's there is not much choice but multiple PW's. The Canon IR trigger is junk unless the flashes are in very specific locations which is also very irritating.

[jharms1]

Great job! Can you give a better explanation of your setup? Were the strobes mounted on rails and turned around backwards so that bounced off the wall? I assume that you were lighting only one side of the court, correct?

I've been taking volleyball pics using two 580 EX's triggered with PWs. I've had decent but mixed results. Hot and cold spots, shadows, wood grain reflection on the girls legs. Yours looks very smooth and well exposed. I'm interested to learn more and if I can get similar results using flashes as strobes. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Big K]

Great job! Can you give a better explanation of your setup? Were the strobes mounted on rails and turned around backwards so that bounced off the wall? I assume that you were lighting only one side of the court, correct?

I've been taking volleyball pics using two 580 EX's triggered with PWs. I've had decent but mixed results. Hot and cold spots, shadows, wood grain reflection on the girls legs. Yours looks very smooth and well exposed. I'm interested to learn more and if I can get similar results using flashes as strobes. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I was back for night two of the tourney tonight and took a couple of setup shots to help better show what I did.

The first is from the opposite end. You can see the strobes near the left and right edges of the photo on the rail. The second gives you an idea how far off the floor and how far from the wall they were mounted.

I aimed them up slightly in an attempt to use as much of the white wall as possible but not have it hit too low on the wall. I was afraid if I aimed them too low I would be way too hot in each of the corners.

I also wanted to get part of the light to bounce off the ceiling to hopefully even things out better and it seems to have worked. This was the first time shooting in this gym so I was experimenting.

I was using the 10" reflectors on the strobes and was shooting at full power. As mentioned earlier I was at 1/250 ISO200 f/5. Ambient in this gym is 1/200 ISO1600 f/2.8.

I don't think I could have came close to getting this type of result using 580EX's unless I had maybe three on each side. They just don't have the kick of 1100ws strobes firing at full power. If I were trying it with the 580's I would move them much closer to the wall to hopefully increase the power making it to the floor but would expect it to have a pretty significant impact on the overall spread of light.

This setup gave me f/5.6 at each corner closest to the wall end and f/5 from under the basket to about 5 feet past the three point line. I didn't meter it, but am guessing I was still at about f/2.8 at the opposite end of the court.

Hope that helps. Any other questions, let me know and I will do my best to answer them.

[DDCSD]

Great shots, thanks for the set-up shots as well.

[Sauk]

How come you didn't just bounce off the ceiling instead of that back wall?

Also I am assuming you were using two packs one for each light?

[Big K]

The ceiling has that grey, flat spray on insulation and does not do well with bouncing. Plus, I wanted to see if bouncing off the wall would get better fill on underside shadows like below the chin, etc.

Yes, each head had its own pack.

[DDCSD]

I think I like this look better than the ceiling bounced or direct strobed look. I wonder if it is a little more noticeable since the whole wall lights up though?

[Big K]

I think I like this look better than the ceiling bounced or direct strobed look. I wonder if it is a little more noticeable since the whole wall lights up though?

I wondered about that as well. I shot four teams playing two games each over two nights and nobody complained at all. When I talked with the coaches I told them that if it bothered anyone to let me know and I would stop. I personally know all the coaches and at least 75% of the kids because of all the sports work I do in this area and if anyone was bothered I know they would have said something.

Plus, the kids know my work and have seen enough strobed stuff from the past to know how much better it makes them look. Fortunately, vanity is still more important than hitting a jumper. :-)

Who knows what the next game will bring.

[namasste]

I'm not sure if I should compliment that amazing lighting work or tell you I hate you! I had myself convinced that my speedlite setup would be fine again this season and then this! I can hear it already.."Honey, do we happen to have an extra $1000 sitting around???"

Very very nice stuff. 200ISO, sheesh!

[Big K]

I'm not sure if I should compliment that amazing lighting work or tell you I hate you! I had myself convinced that my speedlite setup would be fine again this season and then this! I can hear it already.."Honey, do we happen to have an extra $1000 sitting around???"

Very very nice stuff. 200ISO, sheesh!

Thanks Scott. Just remember, don't mention my name when you talk to your wife. I already have enough wives who think I am a bad influence on their husbands.

[namasste]

Thanks Scott. Just remember, don't mention my name when you talk to your wife. I already have enough wives who think I am a bad influence on their husbands.
lol! I guess the good news is that I was telling her I wanted some strobes after last season. The bad news is that I decided not to shot any spec stuff this season and told her I wouldn't need them since most of my hoops would be NCAA games. Why on earth did I open my big mouth?

Truth be told, I am going to try shooting HS with a 3 speedlite setup. Two up and behind me right and left. I'll probably shoot them direct but might bounce them off the wall on full if the third light (on camera) is keeping the ghosting in check. Guess we shall see.

Again bud, beautiful job on those!!!

[Paul S]

Big K - as Scott said 200 ISO niceeeeeee. Can't wait to the start of the session. The HS I'm close to are run by a bunch of old times that keep saying no to strobes. Will try to give it one more shot before I black list the school. I wonder if the AB1600 will have the same punch as the strobes your using?

[namasste]

Big K - as Scott said 200 ISO niceeeeeee. Can't wait to the start of the session. The HS I'm close to are run by a bunch of old times that keep saying no to strobes. Will try to give it one more shot before I black list the school. I wonder if the AB1600 will have the same punch as the strobes your using?Paul, maybe you could setup the strobes during a practice and show them samples taken using ambient and with the lights flashing. When they see how litle the strobes are noticed and how nice the images are, maybe they'll be on board. The other option is to show parents images taken with the strobes and explain that you won't be shooting if you can't use them. If they balk, you might as well black list the school anyway since you'd be wasting your time. If they are on board, perhaps they could sway the powers that be.

[Croasdail]

Very well done. No shadows at all. Love it.

[xochi2]

As Art Fleming (whomever that was), would say, "Well done!" Love #2, w/o shadow. I think you've found a sweet spot. Would like to see more examples, please.

[Big K]

Thanks to everyone for the nice comments. They are always appreciated.

Here are a couple of shots from a boys game in the same gym that I covered Wednesday night. The second shot was from a remote camera I had sitting on the floor.

[40Dude6aedyk]

Truth be told, I am going to try shooting HS with a 3 speedlite setup. Two up and behind me right and left. I'll probably shoot them direct but might bounce them off the wall on full if the third light (on camera) is keeping the ghosting in check. Guess we shall see.

Hmmm, are you suggesting that there is hope to us folks who don't want to setup bigger strobes and instead just use speedlights? I'll be very curious to see how this works for you, though I may get to try before you do. Am I wasting my time?

[TopGear1Ds]

Hmmm, are you suggesting that there is hope to us folks who don't want to setup bigger strobes and instead just use speedlights? I'll be very curious to see how this works for you, though I may get to try before you do. Am I wasting my time?
Take a look at: This, (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/02/on-assignment-speedlighting-college-gym.html) This, (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/03/q-speedlighting-gym.html) This, (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-assignment-prep-basketball.html) (all from strobist) and then some of the forum members who have posted in the sports section recently shooting with just speedlights (myself included).

edit: heres my most recent thread with speedlights.. Still experimenting with them to improve positioning and shadows, but it's a start. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=602159

[Big K]

Hmmm, are you suggesting that there is hope to us folks who don't want to setup bigger strobes and instead just use speedlights? I'll be very curious to see how this works for you, though I may get to try before you do. Am I wasting my time?

You can do quite well shooting basketball with Speedlights. The key is positioning of the lights as much as it is the type of light. More powerful lights just give you more positioning options.

A lot of light positioning is out of your control. Every gym is different which further adds to the equation.

The most helpful tip I received about shooting basketball with Speedlights was to target an area of the court with your setup and don't try to cover more area than your setup will allow. You may not be able to get every great shot from the night but the ones you get will be considerably better.

Strobist (www.strobist.com) and several posts on here will provide you great examples of the outstanding images you can produce shooting with Speedlights. I love using them. Hell, I have six of them. :-)

[40Dude6aedyk]

Thanks for the feedback and all the links. I had read all the links previously which are mostly about direct flash aimed (feathered) between free-throw and top of key. I like the look of indirect flash better, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

[TopGear1Ds]

Thanks for the feedback and all the links. I had read all the links previously which are mostly about direct flash aimed (feathered) between free-throw and top of key. I like the look of indirect flash better, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
Well yeah, good luck bouncing speedlights in a gym. The number of Speedlights it would take would almost certainly outweigh the cost of just buying some AB's. Still, for those on a budget, a cheap speedlight setup is a good option.

[xwikdx]

nice pictures bro

[dshankar]

Well yeah, good luck bouncing speedlights in a gym. The number of Speedlights it would take would almost certainly outweigh the cost of just buying some AB's. Still, for those on a budget, a cheap speedlight setup is a good option.

Not true. I bounce a 580 EX II and a 580 EX off the ceiling at 1/2 - 1/4 power at 70mm zoom and I get full coverage over the entire basketball floor.
Shooting with an aperture of f/1.8 to f/2.0, I get proper exposure with ISO 400. Shoot f/2.8 and you're properly exposed with ISO 800-1000.

[TopGear1Ds]

Not true. I bounce a 580 EX II and a 580 EX off the ceiling at 1/2 - 1/4 power at 70mm zoom and I get full coverage over the entire basketball floor.
I guess I should've been a little more clear.. I was talking about using cheap off camera flash for those who can't afford strobes. Less expensive speedlights, or off brand flashes like the vivitars, aren't as powerful. Take me for example, I got a good deal on a 550EX, and borrow a 430EX for games.

Total cost for my lighting setup, $150. For the price of your 580's I could buy two AB1600's! (I'm guessing with the 580EX value here, but it can't be too far off from the EXII). Maaaaaaaybe I could bounce if I had two 550's, but it'll never happen as long as that 430 is in my kit. It's just too weak.

[40Dude6aedyk]

Not true. I bounce a 580 EX II and a 580 EX off the ceiling at 1/2 - 1/4 power at 70mm zoom and I get full coverage over the entire basketball floor.
Shooting with an aperture of f/1.8 to f/2.0, I get proper exposure with ISO 400. Shoot f/2.8 and you're properly exposed with ISO 800-1000.
It ain't just about the proper exposure. I get plenty of proper exposure with bouncing a single 580EX II. I also want no ghosting of the fingers/hands/balls as well. Can you link/post some photos? Your flickr link doesn't have any BB photos.

I'm thinking of adding an off-camera 430EXII for direct flash and still bounce with my 580EXII. I could use the Canon built-in wireless functionality and not have to buy external triggers.

[dshankar]

The recycle times I get out of the 580s are significantly better than the AB 1600s, plus I get the portablity and convenience of battery powered Speedlights.

I get nearly no ghosting except in volleyball where the ball is hit significantly faster than in games like basketball.

I don't mean to steal your thread OP, but here are two strobed volleyball shots with ALMOST NO GHOSTING. My basketball shots are better but I can't upload them just yet...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/3068204725/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/3069039044/
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/3068204725_dcc99f4045.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/3069039044_461055ac87.jpg

[Roy Webber]

I like the second pic.
+ 1 ....nice action

[MDJAK]

great shots, and this thread definitely needs a bump for more to see the setup.

Thanks for showing it.

mark

[Sauk]

You are still shooting ISO 1000 while with my AB800's I am shooting ISO 250 to 400. Big difference, especially when I can also use an f stop between 3.2 and 4.0.

Solid images though, nice job

The recycle times I get out of the 580s are significantly better than the AB 1600s, plus I get the portablity and convenience of battery powered Speedlights.

I get nearly no ghosting except in volleyball where the ball is hit significantly faster than in games like basketball.

I don't mean to steal your thread OP, but here are two strobed volleyball shots with ALMOST NO GHOSTING. My basketball shots are better but I can't upload them just yet...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/3068204725/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/3069039044/
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/3068204725_dcc99f4045.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/3069039044_461055ac87.jpg

[clarence]

here are two strobed volleyball shots with ALMOST NO GHOSTING. My basketball shots are better but I can't upload them just yet...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/3068204725/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/3069039044/
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/3068204725_dcc99f4045.jpg
the picture above was from my first strobed volleyball game (October 9th). I had the strobes placed on the arena floor, where everybody could see them fire. The coach and the ref noticed them after 5 minutes and yelled at me to turn them off...Bounced off 50-80 ft (?) ceiling
...the first time I strobed sports - I placed three lightstands at the baseline area for a volleyball game. The coach saw them firing, and since the team was losing, made a huge deal and got the ref to yell at me to stop flashing. Hehe ;) Since then, I've put them up in the bleachers, and have always bounced for fear of people noticing direct flashes. I felt gutsy and attempted direct flashing with decent results at the last girls basketball game. Results of direct flash will be uploaded shortly.

Ghosting has something to do with my ability to overpower ambient. When I bounce, I can't overpower the ambient due to weak strobes. When I go direct, I can easily get sharp shots even at 1/2 - 1/1 power.

Check my direct strobed shots and none of them have ghosting....


I can't clearly decipher your setup description...

Were these volleyball pics direct or bounced with a 580EX aimed straight up at 1/4 power off of a 80' ceiling?

[clarence]

I'm thinking of adding an off-camera 430EXII for direct flash and still bounce with my 580EXII. I could use the Canon built-in wireless functionality and not have to buy external triggers.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has been successful in using Canon's master/slave system in a gym.

That was my original approach... use a 550EX as a Master... bounce straight up and let it trigger the Slaves (another 550EX plus a 420EX) which also needed to be pointed to the ceiling (strict rules against direct flash).

But when I tried it, I found that the master flash needs to hit the slaves directly... bounced flash is not adequate to relay the signal to the Slaves.

So the Slaves need to be on the opposite side of the court from where you're shooting. Plus they need to be waaaaay up high... well above the bleachers on the opposite side, otherwise the officials and crowd are going to be hit with direct flash from the Master.

Anyways, according to the Canon manual, indoors range for the Master flash control signal is 15m (49.2 ft). Which is probably close to the distance I was working with in a HS gym, but I had no luck at all getting the slaves to fire.

In my house, I could get the Master/Slaves working fine, but with lower ceilings and less ambient light.

I was originally hopeful about the 7D's built-in Master/Slave control but it seems that it uses the pop-up flash to send the Master signal... which the officials are going to interpret as forbidden direct flash. I was hoping it would be more like a built-in ST-E2... using IR to transmit the Master signal.

So I abandoned Master/Slave with Speedlites and went to White Lightnings with RadioPoppers JrX. But Speedlites would be MUCH easier to travel with if Master/Slave really worked.

[Big K]

Clarence, The flash is not the signal/trigger but an IR beam coming from that red plastic thing on the front of the flash. You have to have a line of site between the two red sensors for things to work and my limited, frustrated experience with it is that it does not work anywhere near the distance they say.

I think you can add the Radio Popper receivers to the mix and attach them over the IR spot on the flash and get all the same benefits without near the headaches and a considerably longer range. I have not actually messed with them, just read lots of encouraging reports on Strobist.com.

I would sell my ST-E2 device if I could find it but it has been buried in boxes of junk for so long I have no idea where to look.

[Aaagogo]

i wish the HS I shoot at had that kind of ambient.

I got so happy when I traveled with the HS for an away game and got an ambient of iso 3200 @ 2.8 @ 1/400 and I was so happy.

[wtr3554]

nice action I like #2