Try to take a minute to go the extra mile when responding to threads

[FlipsidE]

I have seen too many instances lately of users asking questions and getting responses of just "Look at the sticky" or "Use the search function, there will be a lot of hits." Though you may have very good intentions, neither of those replies may actually help. To truly help others, try to go that extra mile when responding.

Rather than replying with just, "Look at the stickies at the top of this board," "Look at this particular sticky," or "Use the search function," how about taking this approach instead.

"That's a great question and one that I know I've seen here recently. As a matter of fact, I believe you might find the information you need here *post link.* I found that particular link in this sticky thread at the top of this particular board *post link to sticky thread here.* If that doesn't help, then I know the search function will return a lot of results on this subject. As a matter of fact, here's a link to the search results of a quick search I just ran *post link to search results.*"

I'm not saying that, if you don't know the exact answer, you should spend the next two hours looking for the answer. And, I'm not saying that you have to go through all of the search results to find the correct answer. But, at the same time, if you've seen the answer to this question recently or otherwise know where or how to find the answer, take a quick minute and track it down or inform the user how you would go about tracking it down. The sticky threads are laid out quite well for anyone somewhat experienced in the subject in question, so you regulars should be able to find the link in mind in no time. http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

Put yourself in their shoes. If the particular user is new to this forum or new to this particular area of expertise, then he or she may have a hard time finding his or her way through the sticky threads. This person may not know exactly what the question should be and therefore may not know the right search string to enter to return the correct results.

The regulars around here (those of us who do know our way around these forums) shouldn't have any trouble tracking these particular links down in a very short amount of time. And, in the end, it's only going to help the thread starter or question asker more (actually a lot more) which, I'm sure, was your intention in the first place.

Thanks for stickin around for the read!

FlipsidE

[Belmondo]

For those who have not seen this in a while, this is a link to the forum rules:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/rules.php

Please pay special attention to rule 4.8 which reads:If you know an answer to a question either answer it or say nothing. Giving newbies blunt answers like "search the forum" is not allowed - please use the typing effort to giving the answer instead. Or just give the link to that post you wished the newbie should have searched for. Respect newbies - you were a newbie once.

Great post, FlipsidE.

[defordphoto]

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

FlipsidE be Da Man! Most excellent post.

[Tom W]

If you'd use the search function, you'd see that this topic has been covered many times. :)

J/K, of course. A good reminder that if you're going to post a helpful post, make sure that it is actually helpful and not just scolding.

[FlipsidE]

If you'd use the search function, you'd see that this topic has been covered many times. :)
- That literally made me laugh out loud!! Good one http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

FlipsidE

[chris.bailey]

Good reminder FlipsidE. I always try to answer when I can but think I may have suggested a search a couple of times when the same question comes up in a matter of days.

[Hatem Eldoronki]

Flipside,
People like you make this board clean and decent. I recently thought that I myself might quit this board, mainly because what I felt was unfriendly/sarcastic replies to a thread I started. We can definitely NOT see each other or understand how the next person thinks or what his level is as a photographer, and, with a little patience, everyone will be happy.
Patience is what we need!
Great post.

[Big_B]

Good point. Thanks for posting this!

[Persian-Rice]

I have a tendancy to write long responses. I always thought it was a bad thing. But I'm talkative :D

I think you make a great point.

[Avalonthas]

There is an excellent post (click here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60756)) that reinforces flipsides idea. I agree fully with you flip. :P

[Belmondo]

There is an excellent post (click here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60756)) that reinforces flipsides idea. I agree fully with you flip. :PSorry...that link just brings me back to the same thread.

[FlipsidE]

Sorry...that link just brings me back to the same thread.
- I think that was the whole point ;)

FlipsidE

[Belmondo]

- I think that was the whole point ;)

FlipsidE

Okay. I must be getting old. I missed something.

[Penguin_101_1]

See the sticky on the forum.

[runs and hides]

[Belmondo]

There is an excellent post (click here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60756)) that reinforces flipsides idea. I agree fully with you flip. :P

Oh....NOW I get it. I'm a little slow. :lol: :lol: :lol:

That is very funny. Now where did I put my teeth?

[Tom W]

Oh....NOW I get it. I'm a little slow. :lol: :lol: :lol:

That is very funny. Now where did I put my teeth?

I'm hoping that you misplace that FD lens - outside your front door in the bushes at the left. ;)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Excellent Post Flipside! :)

If you will allow me, I'd like to expand a little with a suggestion for one other option to a point you make.
*post link to sticky thread here.

Teach a man to fish:
I used to allways provide the link to any "sticky" that I would refer people to,..
But in recent weeks I have mostly stopped this practice with a preference for another method.

I am of the opinion that even if it takes two replies from me in a given thread to explain things,. that actually describing how to find the appropriate sticky thread is better than providing the direct link.

I see this as part of the "teach a man to fish" theory.. it will give the new forum user an idea of how to go about finding some of the excellent information that is allready archived for there future use.

Further By describing in a thread how to find the sticky and informational threads, we teach this information to not only the individual who posted the question, but for any other new comer that might be reading.

"Some grow weary of repeat questions"

This is part of why your post here Flipside is so ecouraging! :)

We are much more accustomed to seeing the complaints about "newbies" rather than complaints about those that brush them off ;)

Many of you are so patient to take the time to answer peoples individual questions,. sometimes you do so with the same question so often it can happen twice in the same day!

The atmosphere of this forum has allways re-inforced the idea of taking the time to help people on the individual basis,. frowning on abrupt posts that tell newcomers to "do a search" or "Google" etc.. This remains one of the best aspects of this forum and what can set it apart from others.

Here are some some simple steps that can help;

1. Members familar with the forums take the time to get to know the forums "sticky" info threads. See what they contain, what regularly asked questions are allready answered there etc...

2. In your daily posting in the forums,. any time you are motivated to take the time to answer a question on the forum,.. at the same time try to recall if there is any pertinant info in a sticky thread. If so,. kindly take the time to also describe the where abouts of these sticky threads. (Post links,. or describe the whereabouts of the info)

By following Flipsides excellent suggestions, and at the same time guiding new members as to where some of this information can be found,. we can go a long way towards educating the new members to be top forum contributors. :)

[FlipsidE]

Very good additions, CDS!

Thanks!

FlipsidE

[markubig]

I guess this question should be directed to Pekka or any of the moderators:

Is boolean logic supposed to be available in our search engine? If not, can it? With the way it is now, when I do a search (for example: if I search for threads that talk about 550ex and FEC), it will give me results of threads that have either 550ex or FEC or both in it, when I am only looking for both.

I guess boolean logic will just make searches easier or more efficient.

If I am totally wrong, please disregard this post and accept my sincerest apologies.

Thanks,

[pradeep1]

This is probably one of the most decent and civil photography communities on the web. I try to follow FlipSide's advice whenever dealing with newbies.

[karusel]

I was pointed to this thread, because I was giving the 'google is your friend' advice. And now I'm totally a bad guy, not willing to help, what a warm welcome for a newbie, eh?

Okay, let's take this to extreme: almost every week, there is a thread asking about what IS does and what's the difference between L lens and regular ones, you know, the classic stuff... God knows I understand they cannot know what those letters mean, as I once did not know, but I'm honestly (without being mean or anything) wondering if people asking this do not KNOW there is an obvious SEARCH function on this and every other forum, and if this fails there is GOOGLE, YAHOO, ALTAVISTA and many others, OR are they simply TOO LAZY to punch in those few keywords and hunt the right links. I do it daily. With everything I need to know. So perhaps I'm biased, because it's so self-understood for me to search for answers before posting a new (yeah, well) thread to the forums, I'm trying to be considerate of the forums, to preserve bandwidth, killed time of users that click on the thread, and nerves of said users because of the n-th repetition of the same question in one week.

You'll probably nominate to ban me for this, and as much as I really really like Flipside's noble suggestion, I hope to God people will wise up and won't waste time of people who are kind enough (I'm not - anymore - though sometimes I have answered a quite repeat question either with a direct answer or a link to a thread) to put it all down again.

P.S. I'm also a member of a technical computer forums, with lots of really kind people, but they have a sticky thread on top of every subforums with abbreviated rules and strong suggestion of use of a search function before posting a new thread. Mods usually lock up obvious repeat threads and usually they paste a link to that other thread.

So my suggestion is, yes, be kind if your time allows it, but let's please expose the SEARCH function, I don't know, make it glowing yellow or something, make a sticky thread titled USE SEARCH BEFORE POSTING NEW THREAD, these very simple things can contribute alot to minimizing repeats.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Karusel, you make some good points.

However, ..stickies can only go so far,. we have found this out the hard way.
90% of the questions asked on this forum are addresed by Stickies, FAQs etc without ever having to resort to a search even.

And yet many (most) still don't take the time to see the sticky before asking.
Having spnet the last year trying to arrange as much of the repeat question threads into comprehensive accesible stickies,. I know excatly what it is that bothers you! ;)


So the trick becomes one of attempting to modifiy behavior,. and Flipsides thread is a good example of how we can do this. If we bash the newby as he walks through the door,. "maybe" he'll stick around long enough to learn his way around the forum. Maybe he'll never come back.

There is nothing wrong with teaching somone to use the search function, or Google etc.. But it needs to be done in an instructive and helpfull way for it to work.

So by all means,. guide peoplke towards search engines and resources that will help them find the answers,. but only by doing this with the intention and desire to help will this be usefull,. if the intention is to punish or chastise,. then the effort,. (or lack there of) is lost.

[Moppie]

Its all bout edumacating the molasses.


As a general rule the more passionate about something you are, and more willing you are to help new users, and more that passion comes through in your posts. The more passion new users are exposed to, the more passionate about the samething they often become.
Imagine if Scottes first post had been replyed to with "Use the search feature". Any passion he might have been developing might have been instantly extinguished, and he could have left us for a NIkon forum :(


All that said I know exactly what people mean when they talk about how frustrating it can get when a new member comes into a forum and dosn't even bother to look at stickied posts, dosn't consider the search feature, and in a fit of niavity post the simpliest, most comonly asked question believing they are the only ones to have ever asked it.
In reply I have been guilty of useing the "Search feature is your friend" approach. But it has never worked, and only ever drives potential new members away. It kills the passion.

When I see them now (not on this forum, Im still to uneducated here) I either ignore them, or post a more detailed reply, explaining how the search feature works etc :)



And one more thing I just thought of while writing this.

There is potenial to make some really great friendships on a forum, and POTN is a great example of how that works.
But notice that most of the friendships are between people who either ask a lot of questions, or people who provide a lot of helpful answers.
For a friendship to develop people have to interact.
So the member who only ever reads the posts and makes intensive use of the forum search feature, posting only occasionaly can miss out on a very important part of being involved in a forum. :)

[karusel]

Indeed. But I think some 'newbie questions' are nothing less than disrespectful to the existing community on the forums, these are the questions asking for example about what SLR means.

A quite another thing is someone asking for personal experience with certain lenses or comparison. I have answered many of those (+/- same questions) the Tamron 28-75 is a good example of a repeating lens, or the famous quadruplet 70-200 (incl. Sigma), the answers could be found anywhere on the web, many on these forums, but I'm NEVER annoyed by those questions.

I hope you see my point.

[Scottes]

Imagine if Scottes first post had been replyed to with "Use the search feature".
Nope... My first question was answered very well, with a lot of good info.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20929

Funny to look that far back...

Any passion he might have been developing might have been instantly extinguished, and he could have left us for a NIkon forum
Luckily I didn't, or else I'd be getting bashed for praising the D2X... :wink:


Sometimes I wonder if I spend enough time telling people to use the Search. But I often remember a post and search for it and then post the link as an answer. I may start telling people HOW I searched for it...

I do not believe in saying "Use the Search feature" but I believe that it's acceptable to say "Do a search for 'avatar shrink jpg' and you'll find an excellent thread." Alas, I say this yet I don't do it myself.


But sometimes you have to think about the question and how sometimes it's VERY difficult to find an answer without wading through hundreds of posts. How many times do the terms DoF and Aperture get used around here? Try to find a post explaining how Aperture affects DoF and you'll be searching through the results. In fact, you'll be searching through 17 pages of posts... 485 hits to be exact.

I will say that I wish people would use the search more, and I **truly** wish that people would post with meaningful subjects! It irrtates me to no end when someone posts a subject like "Anyone have one of these?" and then tops it off with a LINK to the device in question! Arrgghh! Why not just post "Anyone ever use a Lightsphere?" and save everyone a lot of grief?? (Well, save me some grief at least...)


So, helping someone is very important here, and you can help in more ways than one. Sometimes an answer, sometimes a link, and sometimes a pointer to Search with a few keywords...

[JZaun]

ON another thread today I read someone was told to do a search. Not even in a nice way. Now I did a search for "IS", "DO", and "USM" and it brings up nothing. You need to know a little to use the search feature. I have even had a problem searching for something that I posted :? So the point is that a new member doesn't know enough to do a intelligent search until they learn a bit. I really hate it when I see "use the search" It just doesn't work that well and sometines it brings up so many threads it is confusing. I do agree that new members ( and older ones like me ) :) do need to read the sticky's :) I can not see bashing someone in any way. To me it only shows the bashers intelligence or lack there of :) The best advice given here is if you cannot give a decent answer DONT ANSWER!

Just my rant

JZ

[Moppie]

:) The best advice given here is if you cannot give a decent answer DONT ANSWER!



Its the best advice for anywhere :)


My Mother used to tell me; "If you havn't got anything nice to say, don't say it"

I didnt start talking till I was in my mid 20s.




Scottes Im very glad your first post was replyed to so informativly. (an interesting intoduction to USM).




and I **truly** wish that people would post with meaningful subjects!


Its the bane of the internet!
I have actualy given up on replying to threads with obscure and meaningless titles and even more obsucre questions.
With the exception of non-English speaking users, its been my experiance that anyone who can't phrase a question and at least atempt to supply the relevent information is nothing more than a time waster.
Infact its a good sign a troll is probing for trouble.

[Pekka]

ON another thread today I read someone was told to do a search. Not even in a nice way. Now I did a search for "IS", "DO", and "USM" and it brings up nothing. You need to know a little to use the search feature. I have even had a problem searching for something that I posted :? So the point is that a new member doesn't know enough to do a intelligent search until they learn a bit. I really hate it when I see "use the search" It just doesn't work that well and sometines it brings up so many threads it is confusing. I do agree that new members ( and older ones like me ) :) do need to read the sticky's :) I can not see bashing someone in any way. To me it only shows the bashers intelligence or lack there of :) The best advice given here is if you cannot give a decent answer DONT ANSWER!

Just my rant

JZ

Good point about the search engine. I have added 2- or 3-letter words like RAW on it but automatically indexes only 4-letter words from posts. The current list of those special short words is:

G1 G2 G3 G4 G5 G6 G7 D30 D60 10D 20D 1D 1Ds II EX 420 550 580 ISO L 2.8 1.8 1.2 2.0 F4 S10 A50 A60 A70 A80 S20 S30 S40 S45 S50 S60 S70 S80 PRO MK1 MK2 LCD B&H RAW DOF FOV PS PSE C1 IR CA USM UV

PM me if you think of more. I'll run a search engine refresh one of these days and at that moment the new short words can be added.

[JZaun]

Good point about the search engine. I have added 2- or 3-letter words like RAW on it but automatically indexes only 4-letter words from posts. The current list of those special short words is:

G1 G2 G3 G4 G5 G6 G7 D30 D60 10D 20D 1D 1Ds II EX 420 550 580 ISO L 2.8 1.8 1.2 2.0 F4 S10 A50 A60 A70 A80 S20 S30 S40 S45 S50 S60 S70 S80 PRO MK1 MK2 LCD B&H RAW DOF FOV PS PSE C1 IR CA USM UV

PM me if you think of more. I'll run a search engine refresh one of these days and at that moment the new short words can be added.

Thank you Pekka, I always wondered why some searched wouldn't find anything and you explained it. With your additions I bet it works much better.. How about 2, I mentioned, "IS", "DO"' and maybe "HSM" I am sure others can come up with more.

JZ

[CyberDyneSystems]

I don't think you can DO IS and DO,. as it IS used in a few to many sentences,. the way it IS used here :) What can you DO?

Seriously,. I think IS and DO would show turn up results of essentially every thread ever posted.

On the other hand,. we could make another info sticky,.. for all the marketing letters and acronyms :cool:

[Pekka]

Yes, as CDS said the problem is that many acronyms are common words, DO, (Diffractive Optics), IT (Information Technology), IS (Image Stabilizer), US (United States)....

[karusel]

Yeah, that is true, sometimes it is a pain finding what you want... but knowing how to search on internet is like knowing how to swim when you live on a small island.

In the case of abbreviations that are also common words, first one needs to find out what the abbreviation stands for and then search for in maybe along with the combination of manufacturer and/or product name, wikipedia would not be a bad idea either, or, simply a visit of the manufacturer's page.

I fully agree it's best to refrain from commenting a re-re-repeat topic that annoys you, or else there will be an avalanche of s*** coming at you from all sides. I fully support noob's questionmarks, but I cannot bare lazyness. That's all.

Pekka, is there a chance for an option of a case sensitive search?

[tommykjensen]

I will say that I wish people would use the search more, and I **truly** wish that people would post with meaningful subjects! It irrtates me to no end when someone posts a subject like "Anyone have one of these?" and then tops it off with a LINK to the device in question! Arrgghh! Why not just post "Anyone ever use a Lightsphere?" and save everyone a lot of grief?? (Well, save me some grief at least...)


Couldn't agree more. I saw that specific post, I did not bother clicking on the link. Native english speaking or not if the user can't use a few seconds more to make a subject like You suggest then why should I waste my time clicking on an obscure link. My first thought on the link was it could be a harmful link so I did not click on it.

I may once or twice have replied use the search but I usually do what Scottes do. I often remember topics and if I see question I know I have seen recently or posted in myself I usually find that link and post it.

[tommykjensen]

Seriously,. I think IS and DO would show turn up results of essentially every thread ever posted.


Yep especially since many users list their equipment in the signature. Pekka does the search also search in the signature?

[neil_r]

My Mother used to tell me; "If you havn't got anything nice to say, don't say it"

Kenny Everett said "If you havn't got anything nice to say about someone, come and sit by me" :D

N

[Andy_T]

Very often I see a newbie asking a question that is not even necessarily general (let's say how to do panoramas) and I try to point him/her to a thread that is helpful.

Sometimes that would be really difficult to find on your own, as the standard search brings up 300 threads that are only vaguely helpful.

However, *I* might remember reading a post by Scottes describing how to take the shots needed for a pano and another thread on panoramic heads where Ikinaa had a very good link on how to find the nodal point of your camera etc... so I might be able to come up with exactly the right threads in 2 minutes.

However, there would be no way that the newbie had found this in less than an hour and without reading 100 threads. :rolleyes:

Maybe consider this next time you see a question asked where you know exactly how to find the right information ... your knowledge of the forum might just be the key :D

Best regards,
Andy

[dewmuw]

I always work to the adage:

"Better to remain silent and look a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt"

[RJSorensen]

POTN is just like a great big library in a major city center. All on the combined photography knowledge in the world is contained here, either in existing text or in the minds of the users. There is nothing that can not be found here. Sometimes many times over. The lay out is good and the interface friendly, the software current, the staff and ownership stable. A perfect place for those to come whom seek this photography type knowledge.

The problem is . . . many have never been in the building (POTN) before. First one must find the drinking fountain, the rest rooms, where the staff resides for help, then the card catalogues and reference computers are located. You may need a 'library card' or other ID to use the facilities. The point is the new user of the library (POTN) does not know enough 'yet' to stay out of harm's way. The sharks with the quick google/search engine response forget, that the new member does not even know where the rest room is . . . let alone how to use the search functions, or even what to search for. Think of that one please. If your initial DSLR skill is such that you don't know what a "L" lens is, or USM or any and or all of the 'code words' that are used in such places, how in the heck can you use the search function to find them?

They simply can not. So this can be a private social club with a knowledgeable in-crowd, or you can help out where and when you can. The sage advice to not respond if you can not be nice, is timeless in it's value. But you can not also get upset when someone else does respond. It is important to give and receive the 'correct' answers. I am pleased to have been corrected a time or two. I learned and the person with the question got the 'right' answer. The world is sometimes bigger than we think and there are combinations of bodies/lens that moderators learn and know, that other users don't always. But no one got 'bashed' nor is there a need for it. Teach, learn, respect others, even if you do not agree. Vote by not reading, use the ignore feature, you don't have to get worked up.

It is only a website. It is not a life. Best to be remembered by kindness and understanding, patience, long suffering and etc. et al. If you can not answer the 'same' question one more time, please don't. Someone else will. Afraid you will lose your status and or power by not responding? That is a whole different matter . . . One of the things I like best around here is the matter of fact way it is run. Much like taking your hand out of a bucket of water . . . were you in there? Pekka wrote a line that I admire very much. Something to the effect of "People come and people go. We don't allow goodbye threads." That is how I feel here as well . . . people come and people go. Please come if it is your time for information, please go if you have had enough. Please be nice while you are here.

The level of skill sets, from top to bottom is a microcosm of the real world. There are things that some think good . . . that is not but the other is here as well. Each at his/her own level, at their own pace, with their own goals of what is good, what is bad. There is no accounting for taste. However you can, always be nice. You can always help others in need.

My two cents worth . . . my hat is off to the Staff for ridding heard on this can of worms. And doing it quite well.

— RJSorensen

[Skip Souza]

Wow RJ. I wish I'd said that.

[RJSorensen]

Me too . . . but like my Pa always used to say, "The right answer is always right. Even if they don't want to hear it. Or you don't want to do it." A simple rule for a peaceful, simple life, as best we can.

[Maureen Souza]

Nicely stated RJ. Hope you are having a great BD.

[FlipsidE]

RJSorensen,

NICELY said man. Very good example. I really like that!

FlipsidE

[chris.bailey]

Hell RJS thats deep stuff. I wish I could string words together like that :-)

[PhotosGuy]

OR are they simply TOO LAZY to punch in those few keywords and hunt the right links. I've been guilty of saying "Google it" myself, but usually after searching it using keywords from his question and finding the answer in the 1st 2-3 links, so I have to wonder why they didn't try that, too.
<Rant>
When I started, I read a lot of magazines trying to learn, & now people have this great resource of the search engine & they don't use it. I can't understand that mindset at all.
Then someone asks something like, "What's the result if I take a pic at f4 instead of f11?", and I have to bite my tongue instead of shouting that "This is digital. Why don't you take a few pics find out for yourself?" Sometimes I'll post a link. Usually I'll just go away hoping someone else is feeling more charitable.
POTN is a great forum, but we still get posts in critique without exif info that obviously require it for a meaningful reply, which tells me that they didn't bother to read the sticky.
Time is valuable (& running out for all of us), & if someone can't take the time to try to inform & help themselves by reading the stickys, then I wonder why I should waste my time to lead them by the needy hand to a place that's right in front of them?
<end of rant>
I feel SO much better now! :o
BIG thanks to the people who keet POTN running smoothly!!! ;)

[Noni]

If the particular user is new to this forum or new to this particular area of expertise, then he or she may have a hard time finding his or her way through the sticky threads. This person may not know exactly what the question should be and therefore may not know the right search string to enter to return the correct results.
Thank you so much! I am completely new to this world, and have everything to learn about everything...it is so nice to have those who answered my questions and welcome me to the forums, I can't begin to tell you.

So thanks, those of you who've taken time with me, because it matters, and it really does help. I've even managed to learn about histograms!!! ;)

Best-
Noni

[Becca]

From a newbie's point-of-view... Thanks! I'm still finding my way around here, and there is TONS of good information, but I don't always know how to find it. But I always seem to learn a lot just looking!