Any suggestions for shooting a group of 40?

[dphoto]

Hey everyone,

I'm going to be shooting a group of 36 kids plus a few adults sometime in the near future (date not final yet) and I was wondering if anyone had any tips or suggestions. This will be an indoor shoot and I will have access to some steps, so I can place people at different heights. Usually the shortest goes up top and the tallest at the bottom so the faces are closer together, correct? I have 4 alien bees strobes (2 B400s and 2 B800s) at my disposal. My biggest concern is to make sure that everyone gets enough light, especially on the face, without creating *shadows*. Can I get away with using two lights with umbrellas? How far apart do people typically place their lights for a group this large? With a group of 10 that I shot recently, I messed up a couple of shots because some people cast shadows on other people's faces. That was probably because the lights were spaced too far apart, and the subject in the back was not taller than those in front.

I appreciate the help. I'm thinking of using two strobes with umbrellas to the side and maybe one directly behind me with no diffusion, just to make sure all faces get light. Also, I have a boom arm, but with that many people, is it possible to get a hair light for all? Maybe if I place it 13 feet high I can get enough light to rain down. Too much light spill? It might be worth a try. I have a soft box that I could use, but then I don't think I'll get enough coverage. Hmmm... once again, any ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks,
-Deva

[Jon]

I'd say to put the taller people in back. Most heads are as long as, or longer than, the rise on a typical step. If you put the tall people in front, their extra height, combined with bigger heads, will have the people in back peeking over and around them.
How wide are the steps? If you're going to have to do very many rows because they're fairly narrow, you might want to put the people on the floor (a row sitting on the floor, a row on chairs, and one or two rows standing would work) wile you stand on the steps looking down.

[radar-eclipse]

I don't know the difference in height between the adults and kids, but for a second arrangement, how about getting up on a ladder and kind of shooting down at them with them looking up at you? Get the lights as high as possible with umbrellas. Ask for their patience and mess around with it.

[DaveG]

Hey everyone,

I'm going to be shooting a group of 36 kids plus a few adults sometime in the near future (date not final yet) and I was wondering if anyone had any tips or suggestions. This will be an indoor shoot and I will have access to some steps, so I can place people at different heights. Usually the shortest goes up top and the tallest at the bottom so the faces are closer together, correct? I have 4 alien bees strobes (2 B400s and 2 B800s) at my disposal. My biggest concern is to make sure that everyone gets enough light, especially on the face, without creating *shadows*. Can I get away with using two lights with umbrellas? How far apart do people typically place their lights for a group this large? With a group of 10 that I shot recently, I messed up a couple of shots because some people cast shadows on other people's faces. That was probably because the lights were spaced too far apart, and the subject in the back was not taller than those in front.

I appreciate the help. I'm thinking of using two strobes with umbrellas to the side and maybe one directly behind me with no diffusion, just to make sure all faces get light. Also, I have a boom arm, but with that many people, is it possible to get a hair light for all? Maybe if I place it 13 feet high I can get enough light to rain down. Too much light spill? It might be worth a try. I have a soft box that I could use, but then I don't think I'll get enough coverage. Hmmm... once again, any ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks,
-Deva


I agree with putting the taller people lower than the smaller, assuming of course that you have a step so the shorter people get a height advantage that way. I'd often shoot a team and ask all of the tall players to assemble, which they would with a certain amount of smugness to it all. Then I'd ask them to kneel down to the delight of the smaller guys. The heads ARE closer together, which can mean a tighter crop and bigger heads in the final print. And that's what it's all about.

I'd use all four lights into umbrellas and all set to the same power. Get them as high as you can. It's good to have some room behind the last row of the group, not a wall; or you will see shadow behind their heads.

Use the longest lens you can get away with. If you use a wideangle you are going to make the front row head sizes larger than the back. With a short telephoto (say a 50mm lens) you won't see that wide angle look at all, you'll get a nicer perspective, and you will include a lot less foreground and ceiling.

If you can get the lights high enough you could also use a stepladder for a shooting position. You'll end up tilting the camera down a bit. This changes the plane of depth of field to match the same plane that the heads are on as you go back row to row. It'll also make people lift their chins and that's almost always more flattering. But MAKE SURE that the lights are high enough so they aren't throwing a shadow UP. That would be a disaster.

[davidwegs]

My advice is to light it from closer to the camera with two of the 800's (I think they give about 320ws actual). Say 4 feet apart and facing slightly away from the camera position.

Assuming your camera height is @ 7', I would raise the lights to about 9' for a slighty dropped shadow. The umberellas (if white or silver) are a good idea. I use a 3200 with a 42" quite often for group portraits, and the results are not too bad.

I would skip trying for a hair light as the group size is likely to give you too much fall off (IMO). If you decide to do that, get a baffle for the softbox and that should control the light spill.

Taller forward works most of the time, however, be prepared. I have had the taller people on a lower step and still covering the shorter people. You can use a row of kneelers (tall people) and a row of sitters at the front (taller people). That lets the shorter folks be seen, but requires a little more distance to cover for the lights.

The iso/shutter speed I meter for is 100/125 on my Sekonic 508. that usually gets me an f8 with the single 3200 at 3/4 power. So, if you were to drop your shutter by say 2/3 to 1/80sec, that in combo with the two 800ws heads should cover you. Thats just a guess, but may be a starting point to reduce the time "fiddling" with setting on the day.

Best of luck.

[Jon, The Elder]

Stack'em deep and stop down !

[Mark Kemp]

Depends a bit on who you are shooting and why.

A sports team could be quite relaxed with some sitting some standing, leaning on each other shoulders etc.

A corporate pic for a brochure would be more formal, everyone standing looking serious etc. The big bosses might also want to be in front however tall or short they are.

So you need to pose to suit the group and the occasion - basically make sure you can at least see everyone's face and they don't look too squashed. Otherwise you have to improvise a bit with whatever benches chairs, steps etc are available and shuffle people around to suit their height. Also try not to get one tall one standing out like a lamp post amid the shorter people.

Also unless you have flashes like lighthouses -outside in daylight should be easier if at all possible.

[dphoto]

Hey everyone,

Wow, thanks for all the great suggestions! I have a few questions, though... it sounds like I should get the lights as high as possible, but is there such a thing as too high? I have a couple of 13 feet stands, so I could go up to 13 feet high. In the extreme, if the lights get to a certain height, they will create light as if it's coming from above, correct? Then people's features would cast shadows on their own faces, if they were looking forward. Ah, but if they are looking up, it would be OK, right? I have a step ladder that puts me up about 4 feet on the highest step, so I think I could pull it off. Let's say for a variation, I wanted them looking forward, not up. Is there any way to avoid shadows?

I like davidwegs idea of putting the lights about 4 feet apart and then facing them slightly away from the camera. I guess the trick there is to make sure that the lights are not too close together so that the middle is too much brighter than the edges.

Yes, this is a sports team, two squads of cheerleaders to be exact. The coaches want the squads shot separately and then together as well. They are usually pretty good at posing themselves, but with the two squads together, they'll probably need a little more direction. But yes, I can arrange them to be leaning on each other, etc.

As for outdoors, can I get any more opinions... would this really be easier outdoors? It's been very sunny lately, and I'm (admittedly) not very good at shooting in the sun. I assume I would need to find a shady area large enough for everyone, and then just shoot in the shade? Otherwise, if they face the sun I get squinting, and if I face the sun I get shadows. I suppose some large reflectors would be helpful. Anyhow, any ideas on this would be great as well because (as always) I'm still trying to figure all of this stuff out!

Thanks again!
-Deva

[tim]

Shoot the people one at a time, then shoot the background, and assemble it in photoshop.

[cactusclay]

If you do what Tim said, I would like to see the results.

[dphoto]

LOL! Shooting them one at a time, that's just crazy. Now 4 groups of 10 is another story... :D Actually, that would be an interesting experiment. Maybe another time. :D

-Deva

[tim]

I should probably have added a ;) to my post, I wasn't serious, though it could be good for a laugh with a smaller group!

[dphoto]

Hehe... no smile face needed, in fact, it probably made it funnier without it. :D But I will, someday, try 4 groups of 10 and then paste them together... :D

-Deva

[22littlereasons]

Shoot at least 4-6 shots with each set up. Then if some subjects aren't smiling or looking at the lens you can correct it by swapping heads in photoshop.

[dphoto]

Hey 22, that is great advice that I won't forget! Thanks!

-Deva

[René Damkot]

When shooting outside in bright sunlight, position your subject so that the sun is backlighting the subject. When you are looking down on your subject, the sun becomes a kind of hairlight. That way the very high contrast won't present a problem. You can always use a bit of (of camera) fill flash...

[dphoto]

When you are looking down on your subject,<Light bulb comes on.> Ahhhh... so is that the key to good outdoor shots, making sure that the camera is above the subject? This also helps avoid lens flare! I need to pull that step ladder out more often! Now that I think about it, when our company had a portrait done a few years back (about 80 employees at the time), the photographer positioned us outside on the side of a hill and she got way up there on an 8' ladder. I thought she was just trying to see our faces, but she was probably accounting for the sun as well.

So, just to make sure I'm getting this... the shadows won't be there as long as the sun is directly behind the subject. But in a group, can't someone's head in the back row cast shadows onto the people in front of them? I guess this doesn't matter becauset those shadows can never be cast onto anyone's face, right?

Thanks again for the great tips!
-Deva

[Mark Kemp]

I didn't consider the sun - Im from England, too much sun is not a major problem most of the time. I suppose Sacramento is different. The high angle idea sounds good, or try to get the group in some partial shade, maybe the entrance to the stadium that they cheerlead at or something? Otherwise possibly if they are at an angle to the sun so they are well lit and not squinting too much, maybe the sidelighting will give some shape to the faces? Another option, if they will agree is to take the pics in the early morning when the sun is not too high. Or evening but you will get a warm orange cast as the sun actually sets. I am not too sure of conditions where you are, so maybe outside is too much trouble but daylight usually gives more natural pictures and more even lighting than flash as a general rule.

[dphoto]

Hi Mark,

Yeah, Sacramento is a lot different. Over half of our days are sunny and clear with no clouds, so shooting in the sun is something I'm going to have to learn how to do sooner or later. Shade + fill flash seems to be a good solution, but I can't always count on shade, so I like to know what my options are. :D Time of day is a great suggestion! I just need to get some willing subjects and practice, practice, practice! :D

Thanks again for the input!
-Deva

[tim]

A polarizer does wonders for shooting in the sun. Before I got one I never bothered because they came out terrible, now they're fine :) Don't forget the lens hood too.

[Leon van Batenburg]

Imagine someone browsing the web, and reading our helpfull suggestions on how to shoot 40 people, without realising he is on a photo forum.... :shock:

Isn't big brother out there scanning the internet for certain phrases? :p

[dphoto]

Tim, I just picked up a polarizer recently. I'll have to try that out. Great idea! :D

As for big brother, they've probably given up on this group because of all the things we are constantly "shooting" and "blowing up". :D

-Deva

[WestFalcon]

Deva.....Don't make things difficult. You need only one light on a stand directly behind you. Mount the light up at about 9-10 feet. Don't mess with two lights or umbrellas. I shoot groups like this all the time and they are very easy. Most people make this difficult and it's not. Take your strongest alien bee and put it overhead...slightly angled down. Put your people on steps so you can see all....3 or 4 rows..put heads between heads. I shoot at ASA 400 on my 20D. Simple and no shadows behind or on anyone elses face. Don't complicate things with umbrellas and multiple lights...you just don't need them. I'll show you pictures of 40-80 people lit perfectly with one light. Give me an email address and I'll send you a few....Brian.......(umbrellas cause large glare on glasses where simple flash keeps the specular highlights tiny)

[dphoto]

WestFalcon, I'd love to see some of those samples. You can send me a message here: deva at capitalcityphoto d0t c0m. You can decrypt that, right? :D

Thanks!
-Deva

[tim]

Imagine someone browsing the web, and reading our helpfull suggestions on how to shoot 40 people, without realising he is on a photo forum.... :shock:

Isn't big brother out there scanning the internet for certain phrases? :p

I had a strong urge to suggest that a grenade would be easier than shooting people individually, but I managed to supress it. Drat, it got out ;)

Is big brother watching? He probably just watches keywords in email. He's probably too busy looking at stuff talking about sadam or osama, plots to kill the president or overthrow the government, or watching for planning for more terrorist incidents. Of course anyone with email notifications turned on will have an email containing all those phrases... lucky I don't turn them on eh? ;)