Night Photography

[Designshed]

I'm a film shooter thinking of making the jump to digital.

I'm predominantly a NIGHT photographer. Most of my exposures run in the 5-15 minute range under full moon conditions. During the exposure I do colored gel light painting.

Here's a website so you can see what I'm doing: http://www.lostamerica.com/lostframe.html

Seems like digital tech has caught up to a place where I can do this type of work digitally. It would sure be more convenient.

I understand that the CMOS sensor is the most noise free design for this type of work. True?

Is the sensor the exactly same in the 10D and the 20D?

What about battery life? Most cameras drain the battery during a time exposure (The T90's that I currently use do not)

About that 18-55mm lens that comes with the 20D. I've heard that the focal length loses about 20% making this lens the equivalent of about a 24-65mm compared to a 35mm camera. True?

Are there any night shooters here using the 10D or 20D that can speak of their experience? I'm on the fence between these 2 cameras. Is the 20D worth that much more than the 10D? Other than the obvious image size difference, are the cameras really that different? Would one be better than the other for night work.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Troy Paiva

[gramps]

I just glanced at some of the photos on your site..............very nice. I'm not much of a night shooter but for what it's worth I'd reccomend the 20 D. With your level of experience I think you would find it to be a very good camera to work with.

[Andy_T]

Designshed,

welcome to the forum :D

I have seen and admired your works before ...
your website has been pointed out on this forum as great exmples how beautiful night photography can be :cool:

Some quick answers to some of your questions:


Is the sensor the exactly same in the 10D and the 20D?

No, the 20D is the newer generation of Canon Cameras. It (and the new, cheaper Digital Rebel XT) incorporate a new generation 8 MP sensor (vw. 6 MP) that has better low light performance (less noise). So it would be definitely better for your requirements.
What about battery life? Most cameras drain the battery during a time exposure (The T90's that I currently use do not)
The battery in the 20D is good for 500+ shots without flash. You should find it very hard to deplete it in one night (and then you re-charge it)

About that 18-55mm lens that comes with the 20D. I've heard that the focal length loses about 20% making this lens the equivalent of about a 24-65mm compared to a 35mm camera. True?

Nearly. ANY Canon EF lens will give the same field of view as a lens with a focal length multiplied with a factor of 1,6 on a 35 mm film body. So if you take a negative from your film camera and cut away something from the sides of it and enlarge it more, you'll have the same effect. Your EF 50/1.8 lens will 'behave' like a EF 80/1.8 lens, and the 18-55 kit lens gives you about the same coverage as a 28-90 lens on a film body.

Confused ??? Well,just look here (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/dslr-mag.shtml). Explanation, even with pictures.

Best regards,
Andy

[Mike Panic]

a good friend of mine has shot digital but still shoots more slide then ever for night stuff - http://www.arinahnell.com/

[IanBMW]

Wow you have some amazing work. Only night shot's i've ever done were on a Canon IIe so I'm no help sorry.

[thomascanty]

I've done quite a few long exposure shots with my 10D, up to 20 minutes in length. I was actually surprised at how well it performed. There were only about a dozen hot pixels that I had to clone out of the pictures, and I was very happy with the results. I'm thinking of pushing that up to 40 minutes or maybe even an hour next week, while I try some shorter 20 minute shots with the 20D.

I've posted several of the pictures from my 10D here in the shared areas. You can see the threads here:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46143
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47884
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48277

I looked through your galleries, and I like your work, too. What kind of lighting are you using? I'm particuarly wondering about the red in the bank in Rhyolite in this one:

http://www.lostamerica.com/images/rhyolite.html

I'm going to be there next week, and I specifically had that building in mind for the same type of pictures.

[Designshed]

Thanks for all the responses guys!

Helpful comments Andy, thanks. You say the battery is good for 500 shots but that is for exposures measured in fractions of a second. What about the drain on the batts when I'm doing a 10 minute exposure? I have fear of only getting 2 or 3 shots out of a single battery charge as is common with 35mm cameras with lithium batteries . . .

Mike- Yes, I know Arin and have swapped stories with him several times. He does good work.

Thomas- how many shots can you get in a night with your 10D? Can you give me a total number of minutes the battery will last? Suppose the battery drain would be the same for the 20D?

That Rhyolite image- I opened the lens, climbed into the basement of the building (all the floors are gone) held a Roscoe red gel over my Vivitar 285 flash and started to pop flashes in a rough circle while making sure that my body nor the flash appeared in the image. There's about 7 pops of the flash in that image. The moonlight washed al lot of the effect out. Generally most images require only a pop or 2.

Take a look at my "how to" pages as it gives a little more insight into the technique and also has a gear list.

Have fun in Rhyolite. I've spent the night out there a few times. Great spot.

Thanks again guys!

[gramps]

Designshed, I should have mentioned in my post above. I have done up to 3 hours of time exposures at one time on my 20 D. Not too many shots as most of the exposures were 15 - 30 minutes. The battery was fine the next day for a couple of hunderd "regular shots.

[mobilestudio1]

Troy Paiva!!??
No introductions needed! :D
You have been one of my inspirations since I first saw your Lost America series!


Everyone else covered most of your questions, so I'll just say I think you'll be very happy with the 20D. I'd post some sample photos but I don't have any 20D night shots on me right now, but I'm very happy with them.

I'm yet to take the 20D over 8 minutes, but I'm hoping to do just that this weekend. For the images that I've produced that are between 30 seconds and 8 minutes, the 20D is hands down the best choice in digital. I wasn't very pleased with the 10D on exposures over 2-3 minutes because of increased noise and hot spots. It was "ok" but needed too much post processing for my taste. The 20D allows you to turn on noise reduction, in essence letting the camera know that you're doing a long exposure, and in my experience it's made a big difference, without a loss to sharpness or clarity.

I usually take 2-3 batteries with me out in the field and have never needed the third one. Two fully charged batteries will get me through an entire night of 5+ minute shooting. (Though I also have a car charger so the first one can charge while I use the second...just in case ;) )

I love the convenience and cost effectiveness of the 20D, and I also love being the one who decides what my final image looks like instead of my processing house! To be honest, the trade-off between cleaning up the occasional hot spot from digital or trying to fix a scratch on a slide from the lab is worth it! Shoot in RAW is the best advice I could give you when shooting in digital. I personally use Pixmantec RawShooter (RawShooter essentials 2005) for RAW post-processing and it allows me to control the color temperature, exposure compensation, saturation, hue - you name it! I then save one master TIFF copy and from that any smaller res. jpgs I might need.

I hope you'll share some of your photos when you go digital . . . and share any tips you personally discover on the way. I have no doubt that I'll continue to learn from "The Master" once you go digital! :D

Best of luck with whatever you decide!
Lisa

[tim]

Here are some night shots (http://www.mrwild.co.nz/Featured/TheNight/index.html) I did of fireworks. The exposures are only in the region of 1-5 seconds, but battery life wasn't an issue. I very much doubt you'll be able to use a battery in a night, however replacement batteries are only $12 from places like sterlingtek.com so it's not really an issue.

[shaun3000]

Not to mention that, unlike most film SLRs, DSLRs use recharable Lithium-Ion batteries. Using the vertical grip, you can have two in the camera and another two fully charged waiting to go. That'll give you quite a bit of shooting time (several days worth) and when it's all over recharge them and get started, again.

[Deckyon]

I understand that the CMOS sensor is the most noise free design for this type of work. True?
Yes, this is true. COMS sensors require less electricity (as explained to me) than CCD sensors. Canon has put some top-of-the-line in the 20D and 1D Mark II. The 1Ds Mark II and the Rebel XT I cannot speak on - no experience with it. There are still ways to cut noise with extremly long exposures. However the 20D and 1D Mark II are some of the best cameras in regards to the least amount of noise above ISO 400 and even up to 1600...

Is the sensor the exactly same in the 10D and the 20D?
No. Not even close. The sensor in the 20D is a newer generation and type of CMOS sensor.

What about battery life? Most cameras drain the battery during a time exposure (The T90's that I currently use do not)
For my 1D Mark II, I have gotten up to 1200 shots from a single charge. My 20D I have gotten as many as 500 shots from a single charge. Last time I used the 20D for long exposures was for astrophotography. I did 20 7.5 minute shots in a single charge. It was also about 1 degree f outside that night as well. The 1D Mark II I have done over 50 2 minute shots (trying out new technique) during a session. Battery was still good to go...

About that 18-55mm lens that comes with the 20D. I've heard that the focal length loses about 20% making this lens the equivalent of about a 24-65mm compared to a 35mm camera. True?
Not true. What changes is the Field of View. It is called a "crop factor" and without getting into it too deeply here (covered in detail elsewhere) it means that you see the same field of view as a lens 1.6 x larger (ie a 50mm lens on a 20D would offer the same field of view as an 80mm lens (50mm x 1.6 = 80mm). The 1D Mark II has a crop factor of 1.3 and the 1Ds Mark II has no crop factor.

Are there any night shooters here using the 10D or 20D that can speak of their experience? I'm on the fence between these 2 cameras. Is the 20D worth that much more than the 10D? Other than the obvious image size difference, are the cameras really that different? Would one be better than the other for night work.
I use both of my cameras for night shots. I use the 1D Mark II for everything except for astrophotography. I use the 20D for astrophotography due to the weight difference. Less compensation to do on the telescope with the 20D. There is a large difference in the 10D and 20D. 20D is actually smaller and lighter than the 10D, and a better performer in all cases. I have friends here who do astrophotos and they have been selling the 10D and moving to the 20D no hesitation (especially after I showed them mine - one of the first in the town to have the 20D.) The price difference, to me, was more than worth it and I would pay it again even if offered the 10D at half the cost of the 20D.

Here are some examples: (click on the photos for larger versions.)
20D - Orion Nebula - 7.5 minutes - ISO200 - f/2.8 (unedited) - http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-196 (http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-196)

20D - Lake At Night - 2 minutes - ISO400 - f/2.8 (unedited) - http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-183 (http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-183)

1D MkII - Dam At Night - 2.5 minutes - ISO100 f/32 (unedited) - http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-199 (http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-199)

1D MkII - City at Night - 2 seconds - ISO200 - f/5.6 (unedited) - http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-198 (http://www.sturmphoto.com/displayimage.php?pos=-198)

[thomascanty]

Thomas- how many shots can you get in a night with your 10D? Can you give me a total number of minutes the battery will last? Suppose the battery drain would be the same for the 20D?

I have eight batteries, and use two at a time with the grip. On a pair of batteries, I think I was able to keep the shutter open for an accumulated total of about an hour and a half. Maybe two hours. (Four of the batteries I was using at Valley of Fire were at the end of their useful life, and didn't hold a charge as well as they should any more.) The 20D has better battery performance, so I would expect them to last even longer in that camera, though I haven't put that to a test yet. I'll find out how well it does next week.

Have fun in Rhyolite. I've spent the night out there a few times. Great spot.

I've been there a couple times before, too. This will be my first time after dark, though. I hadn't even thought of camping there. That would probably be kind of fun. I have a motel room lined up in Beatty for next week, though.

[froman98]

Here's a website so you can see what I'm doing: http://www.lostamerica.com/lostframe.html



It's nice to see you here! I've been a fan of your work for quite time. Believe it or not, your work was one of many reasons that led me to buy the 20D. It has been a great camera and I strongly believe that you will most definitely not be disappointed.

[PhotosGuy]

LOVE your work! Not sure that I'd make the switch from film re: night shooting if I were in your shoes. I've always felt that film was much more user-friendly fot time exposures. I don't miss film for other types of pics, though. In fact, I just love digital & the RAW format.
What cam are you using now?

[Designshed]

Again, thanks for all the useful comments and compliments.

At this point, it's really a $ issue for me, starving artist and all . . .

Not sure that I'd make the switch from film re: night shooting if I were in your shoes. I've always felt that film was much more user-friendly fot time exposures. What cam are you using now?

This being a digital based forum, I suppose I'm preaching to the choir. It's time to make the switch because:

1. I'm tired of bad processing. I shoot E6 chrome film. Every 6 months another local lab stops running E6. The ones left are further and further away. They are butchers. I seem to ALWAYS have scratching, and bath marks. The lab workers just shrug and say "sorry" like John Belushi after he smashed the folkie's guitar in Animal House. there's an insolence that's crept it. "That's what you get for shooting film, ya dinosaur."

2. I'm tired of bad scanning. I use a Nikon IV ED scanner. It's good, but it's no drum scanner. Many of the images in my book were done with this unit and they look like crap, frankly. For the cost of a top quality scanner, I can buy a nice digital rig . . . 3 times.

3. The preview feature. I tell ya, doing night photography is hard. there are 1000 things that can and do go wrong. Hey, it's DARK out there! I throw away half of my images. I lose the shot SO much due to stuff out of my control (or operator error) and I have no way to know if I pooched the shot until I get the film back. Meanwhile, that abandoned airliner 2000 miles away? I didn't get the shot, sorry.

Currently, I shoot with T90s. For many years I shot with a $50 swap meet Canon FX. Fully manual piece of junk anchor of a camera. The T90s are really nice, and they are really cheap now, but again, there's a reason for that (see above).

My only concern is that a large part of my work's ethos is that I specifically use that old junk gear. I shoot forgotten and outdated things with forgotten and outdated equipment. Buying a 20D would sure throw THAT aspect out the window . . .

Again, thanks EVERYBODY for all the responses and for making me feel welcome here. Message boards can be jerk-fests, it's nice to see a civilized one for a change.

[PhotosGuy]

I throw away half of my images. Only half? I wish I could keep that many! :D:D:D
My only concern is that a large part of my work's ethos is that I specifically use that old junk gear. At one time, it was "state of the art"! But, considering your problem with the labs, I can understand your wanting to change.

[froman98]

Don't forget to get the TC-80N3 for it too. :)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=164271&is=REG

[Designshed]

Don't forget to get the TC-80N3 for it too. :)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=164271&is=REG

Ahhhh yes, the $132 cable release!

Can't you set exposure times to like 10 minutes on the 20D anyway?

[froman98]

Ahhhh yes, the $132 cable release!

Can't you set exposure times to like 10 minutes on the 20D anyway?

The 20D can do an exposure for 30 seconds. Anything past that you can put it in bulb mode and hold the button down for as long as you want. That timer shutter release would be your best bet because you can program it to expose for as long as you want. They have a 50 dollar shutter release that's manual, similar to your 35mm camera cable releases.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=164276&is=REG

[tim]

You can get a cheaper version of the cable from ebay. Not sure if they have a timer one, but they definitely have the standarrd single button one, I have one and it works well.

[Jackal]

Your pictures rock.

If you purchase a digital cam I'd say go for the 20D. (Or maybe the 350D?) But....Maybe...just maybe...keep that film as backup with you. Maybe even take the shots you think you REALLY don't want to miss with both cams.

[mobilestudio1]

Hi Troy,

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I was yet to use the 20D on exposures over 8 minutes. Well, Wednesday I finally had the chance and I'm afraid my "battery test" will be of little use to you.

I went out with two fully charged batteries - one Canon, one third party - and it was BEYOND cold out . . . 19 degrees with 17 mile an hour winds (I MUST be insane! :shock: I did about (17) 30 second to one minute exposures and then went to do a long, 1 hour exposure (was very curious how that would come out on digital) but about 7 minutes into the 1 hour shot the battery died! I switched batteries, re-set up my shot and oddly enough, that battery failed about 9 minutes into it! So disappointing!

Now, I know the only reason I had such strange battery problems was because of the completely ridiculous temperatures, but you'll probably never experience such below freezing temps out in California. ;) In the past, I've averaged about 55 shots at an "average" of 1.5 minutes each, and before now have only had to use a second battery on one occasion. I've also never had any performance problems with a third party battery before now. This time even the 20D itself was acting "quirky" because of the time spent in such cold temps.

I wish I had a more a realistic test trial to share with you, but I'm afraid all I got out of this shoot were blue fingertips and a runny nose! Here are a couple shots from that night. Sure doesn't "look" cold does it, LOL.

http://www.nocturnallight.com/index.php?cat=3

Lisa

[thomascanty]

I can give you a better battery life estimate now.

I use the grip, and had it loaded with two 1800 mAh third-party batteries a friend gave me. I charged the batteries last Saturday and put them in the camera yesterday before I left on my trip. I drove up to the Sierras, then through Death Valley to Beatty, NV, taking about 30 or 40 pictures in the process. Today, I spent almost all day in Death Valley, taking just over 280 pictures, then went to Rhyolite where I took a 15-minute exposure and three 30-minute shots. Only then did the battery status indicator change to "low". Judging from my experience with the 10D, I should have been able to get in at least one more 20 or 30-minute exposure with a low battery indicator, but I didn't try. I was done for the day.

My camera is set to 4-second review, so the LCD comes on after every shot unless I hit the shutter button right away again. Also, about a dozen of those pictures were taken with the 100-400 with IS turned on and I probably did a little chimping somewhere along the way.

I also made it through all that with only one set of batteries in the 580EX (2400 mAh), and about three quarters of today's shots were with flash -- mostly inside Scotty's Castle and several outside as fill. Plus, I manually fired the flash a couple dozen times while doing the long exposures in Rhyolite.

I still have four more sets of AA's for the flash and six more BP511's for the camera. I shouldn't have to recharge anything on this trip...

I should also mention it was a little chilly this morning during some of these shots (high 30's or low 40's -- yes, it gets cold in the desert too... :D ). It was in the high 40's or low 50's during the long exposure shots in Rhyolite. Cool enough to need a jacket, but not bad enough to effect battery life apparently.

[Andy_T]

Troy,

how did your plans turn out?

Best regards,
Andy

[awp]

I just visited (breifly) your site. AWESOME! I added it to my favorites so I can go back and read as well as look.