To Shoot Or Not To Shoot

[shutterfly39]

Greetings all! Let me start out by saying, I am NOT a professional photographer. I've always had a passion for photography, I shoot tons of photos, and I've been told by many friends, family AND strangers that I have the "eye". However, it's only been within the last year or so that I've started thinking about photography more seriously; with aspirations of one day becoming a wedding photographer. I have even slowly started accumulating a nice assortment of lenses all the while knowing full well it's not the lens that takes good pictures....it's what is behind the lens. :D

All that said, I was approached by a fellow school mom that heard I was a pretty good amatuer photographer who one day hoped to shoot weddings. Her daughter is getting married in May and they cannot afford to hire a professional - they were planning on having the bride's brothers take photos. yikes! She asked if I would be willing to shoot the wedding to get the experience and to help me build a portfolio. I tried referring her to a friend of mine that was an ex-wedding photographer who, ironcially, had recently decided to get back into the business. He does beautiful work. We all met. He started with a price of $1,500 (half of what he usually charged) which didn't go over well. He ultimately cut it in half. This price would include using me as a second photographer, all post-processing time, and he would create photo packages that friends/family could purchase later off of his website. Today the bride's mother emailed me and politely declined my friend's offer - realizing it was a wonderful deal but still out of the budget. She again extended me the original offer of shooting the wedding myself - for the experience.

While I have no doubt I could do a much better job than her 2 brothers, I just don't feel I can do it for free. Heck, I have lenses I'm still paying off. :rolleyes: I am pretty decent with Photoshop but I'm not fast so I couldn't begin to guestimate how long post-processing would take in order to charge an hourly rate. Do I shoot it for free - just for the experience - and hand her over a CD with unprocessed photos? Or do I charge her a flat rate of say $300, do a little post-processing in PS, and then hand over the CD? ugh!! I don't know.

I love POTN and would love to get your thoughts and/or suggestions. Before anyone suggests that I back off and let the pros do this, know that I've tried HARD to convince the B&G of the importance their wedding photos are going to be and what a mistake they are making by cutting this particular corner. My sense is now that it's either me or her brothers. There are no other options.

Appreciate any advice y'all have. Thanks much. :D

[collierportraits]

Well, first of all congratulations for entering this with a level head and recognizing your limitations. In a utopian world they ONLY need to hire a pro. And while I admit to this bias (being a pro myself) my glasses are not so rose colored as to think that there isn't a place for good amateurs like yourself to provide someone good photos that could otherwise not afford them.

So, I would say research, research, research and try to second shoot a few (or simply tag along and tote bags for someone) or even better a lot, before that big day comes. In short, you'll probably lose money on this (although I agree you need to charge something!) and you'll lose a LOT of time on this but you will learn quite a bit. Take a wild guess on the amount of time you'll spend post processing the photos. Then double it. Now that you have a number to work with double it once again. AND then hope you can do the PP in that amount of time. And, no I'm not really joking with that guesstimate. IF you are something of a beginner in PP and you don't really have a developed workflow, it will take you an extraordinary amount of time.

As to CD's well, I would never give my files away, but there are plenty on here that feel differently about that. I'll let them expound on that further.

I say shoot it, but learn ALL YOU CAN BEFORE THE BIG DAY. Oh, and you'll HAVE to bring backup equipment. If you can borrow some, that's great. If not, buy used here on POTN and you can sell afterwards and it won't cost you that much. But do your homework. Did I say learn some things before you shoot it? ;)

[Bobster]

looks like you have a good selection of glass - need a decent flash to compliment it all

perhaps they could pay for a 580EX for you? and that be your payment..

or you could also say that with the 580EX as payment, any shots chosen by the B+G have to be paid for? ie. have a minimum size of say 9x6 and charge them $10 per print, this would take into account the time taken to PP each shot chosen? batching RAW files isn't hard work, so putting up a web gallery of proofs shouldn't take too long

and id give them a hi-res disc only once they've selected their shots

as for never giving away a disc, its time that people evolved, i build my packages in mind that i can give away a high res disc of shots.. evolution of the digital age shows that more people expect to receive a high res of the shots, so go with the flow or become.. extinct..

oh and get a contract made up, and cover yourself for any screwed up photos (its hard being a wedding photographer without out having previous experience)

[TheBrokenMarine]

I started by being a second shooter. I've had very minimal formal training. I've now shot over 30 weddings in a year and a half. I don't know what makes you a professional photographer but, in my opinion, if you present them with their photographs at the end and they're happy with them, you're good to go.

I wish you tons of luck. The advice I've got in addition to what the others have told you is to stay hydrated and wear good shoes.

[cchooks]

as for never giving away a disc, its time that people evolved, i build my packages in mind that i can give away a high res disc of shots.. evolution of the digital age shows that more people expect to receive a high res of the shots, so go with the flow or become.. extinct..

No one great, no one notable in history ever used "Go with the flow" as his/her motto.

No, it is not evolving, it is surrendering. I am competeing against this NEWBIE mentality of "hire me and I will give you my work".... Bull, people want quality, and are willing to pay for it. I evolve all the time, I learn, I grow, and I get better to stay in the game. All of this learning I take into every shoot. But the time I spend to keep evolving, along with experience from over 1000 weddings shot does not come free. On one side you have the seasoned pros who guard their work, and on the other side you have the rookies, and along with them, you have the "New type" of "evolvers" who I see as lazy competitors.

As for your problem, NEVER give your work away for free. You will not be respected in your position at the time of the shoot, and believe me, more will be expected of you in the end. No good deed goes unpunished so get a contract, spell out that you are not a professional and are not liable for a less than satisfactory outcome. You agree to provide them with your labor to do the job, your postprocessing which may take as much as a week, and your compensation will be an Ala Carte set up. Set a price for prints, show them the work and the more they want the images the more they will buy. You will maintain the images and they can buy more when they get more money.
I listened once to a sob story from a mother of a groom who said they had no money and they appealed to my sense of community. I basically gave them a small package for little money. I walked into the reception site to find a violinist playing. The catereting was not the best, but far from the worst. All in all it was a pretty lavish event, and of course I was fuming. Later on, I got quite a few calls from guests at the event wanting me for the same type of deal. I put a stop to that very quickly.

But don't get me wrong. I know of some shooters who get about 3000.00 for basically a disc, and a coffee table book, I may consider that, but one thing I am firm on, the client gets post processed image, but no elaborate enhancements or corrections.

[Karen_uk]

I say shoot the wedding for free, give the couple a CD with a decent number of edited photos....and use those photos for your website to give you a kick start in the industry. Make the rest of the shots available to buy through your website. This bride will love you if you shoot for free and will talk to her friends about you....who will talk to their friends....and so on. The could be worth quite a bit in advertising.

Everyone has to start somewhere and this looks like a good opportunity for you... grasp it with both hands.

[stathunter]

As a wedding photographer I can tell you that weddings are a lot of work. But in order to get into the industry there are a lot of things to accomplish prior to jumping in. If you take money for it you might be responsible for more than you can handle. If you do it for free be prepared to do a lot more work than you expected.
Not to be harsh but have you meet her daughter? Is she someone that could be a model for your website? I have done a lot of weddings and not every bride is model material. Before I get beat up here--- they may have been nice people but not the cover for brides magazine.

[TheHoff]

Not to be harsh but have you meet her daughter?

This is something I'd expect from cdifoto, but good thinking, nonetheless.

If you work for free, expect to be treated like such. Charge them commensurate with your experience, not with their budget. Do not include anything in the 'package' that costs you money, like prints or a book.

[symes]

I wouldn't even think of doing this...it's just not worth it to you - an expectation will come no matter the cost... Assist someone for a few weddings to get your chops!

Cheers,

[Cdeming]

If you work for free, expect to be treated like such.

I completely agree with TheHoff on this one. Someone recently said to me "charge them nothing and people will treat you like it." Not saying that you have to charge them thousands, or even hundreds of dollars, but they need to know that you, as a person, are worth it. You are using your time to do this, and should at least be compensated for that.

[Perry Ge]

I'm so torn on this one. Clearly they can't afford a pro if they can't fork out $750. If it were a close friend who couldn't afford it, I'd definitely do it, but from what I understand from your OP, she isn't.

I think you need to be the judge of this one. Ask these questions:

a) Is she genuinely making you a plea for help with good intentions? Or is she just trying to exploit you and get something for free?
b) Will the experience be useful? Do you think you will end up with stuff you could use for a portfolio?
c) Can you afford the time?

Make sure you are clear that they should not expect anything amazing from you, and that they can't make any demands because you're doing it for free.

As for equipment, I'd get rid of the 70-200 f/4L IS for a flash and a backup body if you're gonna do it. Other gear is good otherwise.

[TheHoff]

cchooks' story of walking into the room with the violinist is a prime example of what happens when you take these sort of gigs from strangers. They might not have any money because the ran out of it spending it on other professionals and they think that any ole' schmoe with a digital will do the photos for cheap. After all, it doesn't cost you anything to take digital photos, right?

[SuzyView]

I moved this to Talk, you'll get more pros on here, I think.

[tim]

Wedding FAQ (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=255604). Sometimes I wonder why the wedding FAQ isn't in the wedding forum...

[bps]

This bride will love you if you shoot for free and will talk to her friends about you....who will talk to their friends....and so on.

I know that you meant this statement in the context of advertising, but when I read it, I think "And all of her friends will expect you to shoot for free too."

Bryan

[form]

I wonder if it really works like that. I didn't start off free, so I wouldn't know if it haunts you. I started off as a second photographer for $30/hour, which is pretty low, but my solo rate is 1.5x more. Still low, but I'm not offering albums. I've been told I'm good at what I do by strangers and family, but I know they don't know well enough what they're talking about to make a very discerning judgement about that. Maybe your situation is different, who knows. However, if they say you're good, you're good to them, and that really does seem to be enough based on my experience.

Get lightroom for post processing and shoot in RAW, it will vastly improve the quality of the finished photos and streamline your processing immensely. Photoshop is clunky for batch processing and lightroom is much better for processing large numbers of shots very quickly.

Set a price that is realistic for you, and expect to break even or lose money on the deal by buying extra equipment if the experience is worth it and you really need those items.

The only thing missing from your equipment is a good flash and a sampler of color CTO gels to match indoor tungsten (and a backup body). I couldn't and wouldn't dare do weddings without off-camera flash, it's an absolute necessity to me. Of course, that's partly because I'm not good at using what's available. At the very least, buy a used 580EX I, they can be had for about $275 or less.

[collierportraits]

cchooks, well said about giving away your images. This has nothing, n o t h i n g to do with "Getting with the program" or "evolving". Those of us who have been doing this successfully for years (17+ for me) have OBVIOUSLY evolved quite a bit in order to stay in business. Our entire industry has COMPLETELY changed over the last 10 years. It's not the same animal it was. And in order to stay successful, we've had to change with it or die. And quite a few died during that process.

Now, some have decided to give away their images, just as some gave their negatives away years ago. If that's your decision, well, you are entitled to that, but please don't try to imply that you are somehow on the cutting edge because you give away your images. And I trust that you charge and charge well for it. If it works for you great. We all have to decide how we're going to present ourselves and how we work...

Now, back to the OP. I have never given away work, except to charitable organizations... IF what you are doing has value, then you deserve some compensation. If they CANNOT PAY ANYTHING, then they are lying to you. ;) How 'bout them apples? They are having a wedding, right? Ask them what the wedding budget is. Have a frank discussion with them. Payment plans enable people to have cars that would never otherwise be able to afford them. This, too is a possibility. If they could agree to pay you $100-150/mo. for the next six months? If they REALLY care about their images, then they will pay you something for it. If not, well then the reality is that they DON'T think you're that great a photographer, they're just thinking you're one of the few guys that would do this for a little bit of nothing. And, hey, his work isn't THAT bad...

Sorry to rain on your parade, but find out where their priorities are. If they're in the right place and simply can't afford it, it makes it easier to give of yourself.