Show stopping limitation of 580EXii.

[eugenep01]

I just found that my lighting setup will not work due to very fundamental limitation of 580EXii.
Here is my setup: Elinchrom D-lite4 kit as my main and fill light and 430EX as my background light and 580EXii mounted on XSI.
Yesterday I got background paper and stands and wanted to try this setup using 580EXii as an optical trigger for D-lites in manual mode, and set it as master to trigger 430EX. To my surprise everything was dark due to the fact that when in master mode (regardless whether 430EX and 580EXii are set to manual) 580EX fires preflash for 430EX.
I found it in a small print on one of the pages in the manual.
I just don't get why it has to fire preflash, they just couldn't give us an option.
This makes me mad because to me it seems like a very simple thing, but now I have to purchase either PW's or Cybers Syncs.
If anyone has any suggestions please advise.

[cvt01]

I'm not sure this will work but trying is free: connect the D-lite4 with the PC cable it comes with to the camera's PC port. Turn off the optical slave on the Dlite. Fire a test shot. The PC port should fire the Dlite when you actually take the picture and the 580 would trigger the 430. Turn off ettl and shoot in manual.

[eugenep01]

I'm not sure this will work but trying is free: connect the D-lite4 with the PC cable it comes with to the camera's PC port. Turn off the optical slave on the Dlite. Fire a test shot. The PC port should fire the Dlite when you actually take the picture and the 580 would trigger the 430. Turn off ettl and shoot in manual.
The problem is, my XSI does not have PC port. 580 has PC port but it is only input.:mad: First I thought it is an output, so I connected it to Dlite's and got an obvious results.:)

[PacAce]

I just found that my lighting setup will not work due to very fundamental limitation of 580EXii.
Here is my setup: Elinchrom D-lite4 kit as my main and fill light and 430EX as my background light and 580EXii mounted on XSI.
Yesterday I got background paper and stands and wanted to try this setup using 580EXii as an optical trigger for D-lites in manual mode, and set it as master to trigger 430EX. To my surprise everything was dark due to the fact that when in master mode (regardless whether 430EX and 580EXii are set to manual) 580EX fires preflash for 430EX.
I found it in a small print on one of the pages in the manual.
I just don't get why it has to fire preflash, they just couldn't give us an option.
This makes me mad because to me it seems like a very simple thing, but now I have to purchase either PW's or Cybers Syncs.
If anyone has any suggestions please advise.
But you do have the option of turning the "preflash" off. Just don't use the 430EX as a slave! That "preflash" you are talking about is the command flash that sets up the slave and readies it to fire when the main flash goes off. Without it, the slave won't fire.

[eugenep01]

But you do have the option of turning the "preflash" off. Just don't use the 430EX as a slave! That "preflash" you are talking about is the command flash that sets up the slave and readies it to fire when the main flash goes off. Without it, the slave won't fire.
Well, I would like to use 430EX as my background light. Is it possible to have it fire without setting it to slave mode and 580EXii in master mode?
In this situation I use 580EXii only as a trigger, I have it set to 1/128 power, it is attached/mounted to XSI.

[PacAce]

Well, I would like to use 430EX as my background light. Is it possible to have it fire without setting it to slave mode and 580EXii in master mode?
In this situation I use 580EXii only as a trigger, I have it set to 1/128 power, it is attached/mounted to XSI.
Your problem stems from the fact that you are not only trying to fire the 430EX as a slave but you are also trying to optically trigger a strobe. These two combinations usually do not work very well unless the optical triggering device is smart enough to ignore the preflash. One way to get around this issue is to fire the strobe via a long sync cable, as someone already suggested above. Another option is to use an RF remote unit to trigger either the strobe or the 430EX wirelessly. The trick is to get rid of the optical triggering of any of the strobes or flashes if you want to use an ETTL master to fire an ETTL slave.

[Specialized]

You can get a Canon OffShoe ETTL Cord and split the cable, make yourself another hotshoe (or just splice in a pc cord) to trigger/use with your DLite.

[eugenep01]

You can get a Canon OffShoe ETTL Cord and split the cable, make yourself another hotshoe (or just splice in a pc cord) to trigger/use with your DLite.
Actually I figured out what I will do in my case.
I have an old flash that is not working (Albinar .....), I removed bottom of the flash (the hotshoe adapter...) from it and exposed 2 wires coming out, one from center and another is ground. Tomorrow I will buy 3 mono jacks attach them to it and connect my elinchroms and 580EXii with pc cables.
I already tried firing individual units, strobes and 580EX-ii, using banana clips, and it worked.

Still, hate canon for not giving us choice in situation like mine.

[Hermes]

If you don't need ETTL you can just get a little hotshoe adapter with built in optical slave for the 430ex, use it in manual and turn off the pre-flash.

Would be cheaper than buying PC cords and almost certainly as reliable. Nothing less fun than trying to shoot while you're tethered to the lighting.

[bmynbr]

Could you not make the 580 not flash at all as a master, and have the 430 trip the strobe?
Not sure if it will work, but worth a shot.
Dave

[Krapo]

Isn't there an option on your strobe to ignore the "pre-flash"?

[eugenep01]

Could you not make the 580 not flash at all as a master, and have the 430 trip the strobe?
Not sure if it will work, but worth a shot.
Dave
That is exactly what I was hoping for and reason for complaint. 580 will still fire preflash no matter what.

As for Dlite's to ignore preflash, I don't think there is such option. At least I didn't see it in the manual.

In regards to whether I need ETTL, the answer is NO, I am setting up a little studio type space to take pictures of my son, so everything will be set manually. Main light and fill light using Dlite-4 Kit, and either 430 or 580 as backlight.
HERMES, What device do you referr to in this excerpt "little hotshoe adapter with built in optical slave for the 430ex, use it in manual and turn off the pre-flash. " Is it one of those optical "Wein HS Hot Shoe Slave" from B&H? I had no idea what those are, now it makes sense.
Thanks for idea.

[Curtis N]

If you want to use 580EX II, 430EX and studio strobes together, this is the simplest way:
Use the 430EX as your "master" (manual mode, triggered via hotshoe adapter + PC cord or radio), and attach an optical slave to the sync socket on the 580EX II.

[eugenep01]

If you want to use 580EX II, 430EX and studio strobes together, this is the simplest way:
Use the 430EX as your "master" (manual mode, triggered via hotshoe adapter + PC cord or radio), and attach an optical slave to the sync socket on the 580EX II.
Thank you Curtis, I just read your sticky "Using Hotshoe Flash Units Off-Camera: Here Are the Basics".
It seems to be simplest/cheapest way in my case, also it eliminates wiring mess.Which brand would you recommend for optical slave? Going by reviews on B&H this one seems to be preferred "Morris Popular Shoe Slave Adapter",
What is your take???

[Curtis N]

You don't want a slave that mounts on the flash foot. Optical slaves don't play nice with Canon EX Speedlites when connected that way.

You'll need to plug the slave into the PC socket on the 580EX II. For this, you'll need a slave with a female PC socket and a short male-male PC cord to connect it.

http://flashzebra.com has what you need. Send Lon an email and he'll help you pick the right components.