What's the deal with basalt?

[Karl Johnston]

Lately I see more and more basalt (otherwise known to some manufacturers as "lava") built tripods. What's the deal with this stuff and why would someone want it over the traditional metal or the new carbon fiber stuff?

Anyone had experience with basalt tripods?

[tgara]

See here:

http://services.gitzo.com/basalt/home.htm

[Karl Johnston]

That's a good link to examples of basalt tripods, thanks, though i'm more looking for the advantage to them over carbon fiber. From the specs they don't look incredibly impressive, in fact they look like cheap carbon fiber composites.

What do they do that's different or unique ?

[DDCSD]

Well, its recyclable!

[Jon]

Basically they're the same construction as CF, but a basic rock is cheaper than a diamond, so basalt is cheaper than CF. Probably a bit less strong, but in this particular application you wouldn't notice.

[mleone]

Basically they're the same construction as CF, but a basic rock is cheaper than a diamond, so basalt is cheaper than CF. Probably a bit less strong, but in this particular application you wouldn't notice.


Wait a sec. I thought CF was plain old Carbon (Graphite) not diamonds. Yes I know diamonds are carbon too. But carbon used in CF is closer to pencil lead and is used to reinforce a lighter weaker material like plastics.

And basalt is a volcanic rock which really light and strong. It has loads of air holes b/c it formed quickly. I would like to see a Carbon-Basalt tripod someday. I bet it would as strong as steal and as light as can be.

[BrandonSi]

Wow. This is just amazing. A tripod from pyroclastic flow. Now I've seen everything.

You know what they say about fools and money.

[Jon]

Carbon fiber, like diamonds and unlike graphite, consists of ordered, aligned and crystalline-bonded carbon atoms. Graphite consists of amorphous carbon atoms, or, at best, non-aligned crystals, which is why it rubs off and/or breaks so readily. It's this difference in structure that makes carbon fiber more expensive than pencils just as it makes diamonds more expensive than coal.

Basalt is a volcanic rock, yes. But you're confusing it with "pumice" and "scoria". Basalt refers to a ferromagnesium silicate which cooled rapidly, however the rapid cooling does not cause air pockets. It does cause the rock to have a very fine crystalline structure. However, the typical specific gravity of a basalt is about 3.3, making it heavier than the potassium-aluminum silicates (felsic rock types) that make up granites and their extrusive volcanic equivalent rhyolites.

Pumice and scoria come whenever magma (mafic or felsic) contains large amounts of gases in solution and then experiences a pressure release allowing the gases to come out of solution, in much the same way a carbonated beverage releases CO2 when it's opened and poured.

And I didn't expect to be using my geology degrees here of all places.

[Mark]

Wait a sec. I thought CF was plain old Carbon (Graphite) not diamonds. Yes I know diamonds are carbon too. But carbon used in CF is closer to pencil lead and is used to reinforce a lighter weaker material like plastics.

And basalt is a volcanic rock which really light and strong. It has loads of air holes b/c it formed quickly. I would like to see a Carbon-Basalt tripod someday. I bet it would as strong as steal and as light as can be.

So did I.........

(oops, really should refresh before replying :oops:)

[mleone]

I'm still confused. They dont really use diamonds. I get the that diamonds are harder then graphite but CF is a polymer, right? I guess that what I was trying to say its not a diamond from the ground.

[Mark]

I'm still confused. They dont really use diamonds. I get the that diamonds are harder then graphite but CF is a polymer, right? I guess that what I was trying to say its not a diamond from the ground.

Yeah, I'm also confused....
I just read somewhere else that Basalt fibre is really fibreglass....???
:confused:

[Jon]

The fibers in both CF and basalt are held in a resin gel. The difference is in the composition of the fibers themselves. Essentially basalt fiber is really melted down rock, spun out as obsidian, or volcanic glass, so it has a lot in common with fiberglass. For that matter, there's no reason someone couldn't market a fiberglass tripod; they use them in surveying, after all.

It's not so much that the diamonds are harder than graphite as that the atoms in a diamond, or in a carbon fiber strand, are more closely bonded to each other than are those in a chunk of graphite, or coal, so they form a stronger object. Look, also, at the gradation from peat to lignite to bituminous and then anthracite coal for other examples of realignment of electron bonds forming stronger materials.

[ben_r_]

Jon - You are awesome! Most of that actually made sense to me!!! My chem classes all came back in a rush too powerful for this early in the morning!

[Sasquatch41]

You might say the basic material is dirt cheap for the manufacturer. (groan)

[Jon]

I think I already suggested that they got their material at rock-bottom prices . . .

[ed rader]

Wait a sec. I thought CF was plain old Carbon (Graphite) not diamonds. Yes I know diamonds are carbon too. But carbon used in CF is closer to pencil lead and is used to reinforce a lighter weaker material like plastics.

And basalt is a volcanic rock which really light and strong. It has loads of air holes b/c it formed quickly. I would like to see a Carbon-Basalt tripod someday. I bet it would as strong as steal and as light as can be.


carbon/titanium would be the ticket...just like the lightest race bicycles :D.

ed rader

[Mark]

carbon/titanium would be the ticket...just like the lightest race bicycles :D.

ed rader

$10k tripods.... uhhh no thank you :D

[Jon]

carbon/titanium would be the ticket...just like the lightest race bicycles :D.

ed raderThat's pretty much the premise behind Manfrotto's Mag-fiber tripods - combining carbon fiber tubes with magnesium alloy hardware to reduce the weight over straight aluminium.

[Mark]

That's pretty much the premise behind Manfrotto's Mag-fiber tripods - combining carbon fiber tubes with magnesium alloy hardware to reduce the weight over straight aluminium.

I think he means some sort of titanium Carbon fibre composite tube......

What we really need is something involving carbon nanotubes :D

[Jon]

Well, carbon-titanium bikes aren't generally made with a composite tube, they combine carbon fiber tubes with titanium lugs.

[zeva]

Wow Jon Very intresting and you have a geology degree? :O and wow... bad puns HAHAHA

[FlyingPhotog]

I think I already suggested that they got their material at rock-bottom prices . . .

Wouldn't that be "Bottom of the Rock Prices?" ;)

[Jon]

Wow Jon Very intresting and you have a geology degree? :O and wow... bad puns HAHAHAWe have a compendium of gneiss ones - so don't take us for granite.

Wouldn't that be "Bottom of the Rock Prices?" ;)Well, no - basalt's either extrusive or, at most, a shallow intrusive, which conditions permit the rapid cooling needed for a fine-grained rock. Bottom of the Rock prices would be if it was a gabbro tripod.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Oh lord, and in that first Post Jon sounded so damn smart..
Then the Puns started.. :rolleyes: :lol:

No one makes it out of fiber glass as it's strength to weight ration is VERY bad,. ie: to get the strength, it will be HEAVIER than aluminum.. ( think of ladders for example..)

[FlyingPhotog]

We have a compendium of gneiss ones - so don't take us for granite.

GROAN....

Well, no - basalt's either extrusive or, at most, a shallow intrusive, which conditions permit the rapid cooling needed for a fine-grained rock. Bottom of the Rock prices would be if it was a gabbro tripod.

Duly Noted... ;)

[Jon]

Oh lord, and in that first Post Jon sounded so damn smart..
Then the Puns started.. :rolleyes: :lol:

No one makes it out of fiber glass as it's strength to weight ration is VERY bad,. ie: to get the strength, it will be HEAVIER than aluminum.. ( think of ladders for example..)Hey, one of my degrees is from your current employer . . . Of course I sound smart.

But the absolute strength is less an issue with tripods than with ladders (unless you're Lester Bogen). Stiffness and damping are more critical. This is also the case in boats and, increasingly, with aircraft. If strength were the main criterion, basalt tripods would be non-starters as they're made of a fiber that's, volume for volume, heavier than glass fiber. And the stiffness is dealt with by wrapping the roving on the bias, with successive plies angled with respect to the previous one, like plywood is made.

[zeva]

So Jon can we have a translation / summary of what you said for non geolgist? :P like what are pros of CF vs Basalt? And vice versa? Thanks!

[ed rader]

$10k tripods.... uhhh no thank you :D


they wouldn't cost that much .... unless gitzo made 'em :D.

ed rader

[zeva]

lol Ed wanna make us some? sell them for say 20 bucks? lol I know you want to!

[hollis_f]

Graphite consists of amorphous carbon atoms, or, at best, non-aligned crystals, which is why it rubs off and/or breaks so readily. I've always thought they needed to teach more chemistry to geology students;)

Graphite defintely isn't amorphous. It consists of layers of carbon atoms. Each layer is a hexagonal grid with a gap of 142 pm between each atom (closer than the 154 pm between atoms in diamond). What makes graphite soft and slippery is that there are no carbon-carbon bonds between the layers. So each layer can easily slide between its neighbours.

It's fixing these layers in a plastic that makes the whole thing a lot sctronger.