Carrying a monopod...with intent.

[jamesb84]

OK, so as a bizarre but humerous (i guess) story this is one of the best i've had. But, it serves to show just how much our civil liberties in the UK are being eroded...

Saturday just gone I was going off to photograph my local "Football League Championship" team playing in what was described as a Derby match (why I have no idea as the opposing team are from 94 miles away). As a result, there was a fairly large police prescence.

I turned up to the ground 2 hours before kick-off but as I was walking past the compound where the away fans were to be held before entering the ground I was stopped by a police officer in riot gear.

What follows is a snippet of conversation:

PC Plod: What's that (pointing at expensive Manfrotto carbon monopod)?

Me: That's my monopod officer

PC Plod: Why have you got it?

Me: I'm a photographer, I use it to rest my camera on

PC Plod: What camera?

Me: The one in this case (pointing at Peli 1560 case with multiple stickers on).

PC Plod: Are you trying to be funny?

Me: No officer, it's cold and I need to get to the press room to pick up my pass and bib.

PC Plod: Don't be funny, you're too young to be a photographer (I take this as a compliment personally)

Me: Well, I have my UK Press Card if you'd like to see it?

PC Plod: I don't care if you have a press card, I don't have to look at that (funny as it says it's recognised by the Association of Chief Police Officers)

Me: It is a recognised form of ID for photographers and the press.

PC Plod: I don't care, I would like to search you under section 44 of the Anti-Terrorism Act 2008.

At this point I am beginning to see that he is a bit of a jobsworth etc. I calmly point out that the UK Press card is a valid form of ID and that S.44 of the anti-terrorism act states that I can only be searched if i'm a terrorist suspect, acting suspiciously or hindering a police operation.

Asking why I am about to be searched, I was told "you have a weapon (Manfrotto Carbon Monopod) and I have reason to believe that you wish to use it".

At this point I simply could not help but laugh, really tried hard but it was impossible.

Get accused of being obstructive, and then get everything (EVERYTHING) searched by two rude PC's who looked at all my images, laptop, pass, cameras, mobile phone.

So, this is how I had a monopod with intent...remember folks, it's not just a tool to hold up a heavy telephoto, you can take it too football riots too!!!

Seriously though, this is becoming more and more common, and the serious message to all of POTN in the UK is this: Our rights as photographers are being eroded to the point of non-existence. It IS NOT ILLEGAL to be a photographer in this country, and everyone who wishes to carry on with it, be it as a hobby or a profession needs to stand up and be counted as saying "I WILL NOT BE THREATENED INTO GIVING UP MY RIGHT TO PHOTOGRAPH".

I urge everyone to write to your MP or the Home Secretary Jacqui Smith and ask them both, why do they wish to disrupt the activity of legitimate professionals and citizens? Petition and protest Photographers!! Stop more of us being threatened with arrest, detention and harrasment simply for the sake of carrying a camera (or monopod) with intent.

James.

[liam5100]

Sorry to hear about your mishap with the police, but I have to say I do LOVE the english's vernacular.

[Roy Mathers]

Sorry to hear about your mishap with the police, but I have to say I do LOVE the english's vernacular.


How do you mean?

[Mystery Machine]

James,

I am really sorry to hear this and just goes to show how crazy (read: paranoid) the world is becoming.

Was this fixture in Bristol? Seems to be the epicentre of madness for photograpers at the moment :lol:

Imagine what would have happened if that policeman had arrived to my situation? Imagine what would have happened if that woman was near you during your ordeal? (terrorist next to her children - think how she's react to that!!)

How did this pan out? Were you actually searched? Please tell me how this ended?

Regards,

Bruce (of Bristolshire)

[liam5100]

How do you mean?

Your use of the english language compared to us americans, the slang, the phrasing etc.

[DDCSD]

Wow, you can't even carry a stick in Britain these days?

Between this and Mystery Machine's incident, I can't imagine what you guys have to put up with over there. It can be bad over here sometimes, but wow.

[martin j]

Should've stick it under his chin and told him was for supporting pricks.

[Roy Mathers]

Your use of the english language compared to us americans, the slang, the phrasing etc.

Yes, we still have the quaint habit of using capital letters for words like 'English' and 'American'. :D

[Dork Knight]

That is crazy, I could only imagine what would have happened at a Cardiff v Swansea match ;)

Terrible though, I was stopped with my father the other evening in Cardiff which has never happened before - However, this was on private property at the Cardiff Winter Wonderland.

Has anyone drafted a template on the forum to send to the Home Secretary or whatnot? It would be nice to have some for of response and rights to carry in my bag.

I would write one but I wouldn't know how best to word it to be honest.

[Roy Mathers]

Should've stick it under his chin and told him was for supporting pricks.

I'm sure that would have elicited a very friendly response from the policeman!

[primoz]

Asking why I am about to be searched, I was told "you have a weapon (Manfrotto Carbon Monopod) and I have reason to believe that you wish to use it".
If it would be me instead of you, this idiot would actually be right. Yes I would actually wish to use it... to smash his stupid head. :rolleyes:

[jamesb84]

That is crazy, I could only imagine what would have happened at a Cardiff v Swansea match ;)

Terrible though, I was stopped with my father the other evening in Cardiff which has never happened before - However, this was on private property at the Cardiff Winter Wonderland.

Has anyone drafted a template on the forum to send to the Home Secretary or whatnot? It would be nice to have some for of response and rights to carry in my bag.

I would write one but I wouldn't know how best to word it to be honest.

Ironically, I've covered both Swansea v Cardiff games this season (Carling Cup in Sept) and 2 weekends ago in the league. Both games were heavily policed but other being held in the ground afterwards to allow the police to clear the press car park of fans, absolutely no trouble at all for us! But plenty of trouble between fans and police and rival fans.

In fact, a good bit of banter with the dog handlers who were stood next to us, I also made £1.40 in change thrown between the 2 sets of fans at the Carling Cup game.

Mystery Machine, yeah this was at Ashton Gate this weekend just gone. I allowed myself to be searched in the end, simply because it was cold and i just wanted to get into the ground, but I have written to the Chief Constable and had a response.

James.

[twiggles]

Should've stick it under his chin and told him was for supporting pricks.

Thats classic. I literall LOL'ed in my cubicle!

[neil_r]

It is amazing how everyone can judge a situation when it is only presented from one side, great balance. I wold love to here the Policemans take on the situation before I called anyone a prick.

And DDCSD please do not feel too sorry for us, whilst we suffer a little as a result of the world situation our freedoms are still pretty safe. Whilst the occasional over zealous policeman may overstep the mark our "freedoms" are still pretty much in tact, we certainly do not have anything as draconian as the "Patriot Act" to restrict us.

[neil_r]

I allowed myself to be searched in the end, simply because it was cold and i just wanted to get into the ground, but I have written to the Chief Constable and had a response.

James.

So it was optional and required consent, see I knew we still lived in a democracy :-)

[FlyingPhotog]

It is amazing how everyone can judge a situation when it is only presented from one side, great balance. I wold love to here the Policemans take on the situation before I called anyone a prick.

And DDCSD please do not feel too sorry for us, whilst we suffer a little as a result of the world situation our freedoms are still pretty safe. Whilst the occasional over zealous policeman may overstep the mark our "freedoms" are still pretty much in tact, we certainly do not have anything as draconian as the "Patriot Act" to restrict us.

Cheap Shot...

9/11 + subsequent incidents have made governments on both sides of the Atlantic a little nuts so let's not drag this downhill ok?

[neil_r]

9/11 for you perhaps we in the UK have been rocked by terrorist attacks for many years prior to 9/11.

I don't understand the Cheap Shot line as my comment was neither a shot nor was it cheap.

[jamesb84]

So it was optional and required consent, see I knew we still lived in a democracy :-)

Ah consented yes, but i was informed (as have the majority of people who have fallen victim to "the s.44 search"...see at the bottom) that if I failed to comply or failed to allow the search for any reason I would be arrested and charged with obstructing a police officer or declining to be searched.

I still dont see why you'd agree with this behaviour, the issues as I see them are:

1. I was seemingly targeted for carrying a monopod openly and in my hand (not hidden/in bag/stuffed up jumper)

2. I offered to show my press card (which, if I may quote the back states "The Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland recognise the holder of this card as a bona fide newsgatherer") and it was declined as a valid form of ID and dismissed as pointless by the officer.

3. There were no grounds whatsoever to search me, certainly not using a vague and potentially unjust token of law. S.44 is not for random searches when you have no other reason.

4. The threats of "if you've nothing to hide, then why dont you give us your details/let us search your memory cards" and "if you fail to comply you will be arrested and detained" are simply totalitarian.

Now, the links to other info:

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/2008/11/03/st-pancras-section-44-stop-and-search-22nd-november-2008/
Photos of Met Police search record, mine is the same format except my stop code was T, reason for search code was J (not any other one which it could have been ie. D or F) and Outcome was 2 (in that i was advised that i should avoid carrying a monopod, that i should give my details when asked, and should show "proper, valid ID").

http://southwalesanarchists.org/2008/11/28/anti-terror-stop-and-search-at-cardiff-central/
Report of a S.44 search at Cardiff Central train station and the reasons given for it by police.

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/19/visitor-to-london-vi.html
This is a good video, I would recommend everyone watching it, as it's pretty similar to my S&S.

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/issues/6-free-speech/s44-terrorism-act/index.shtml
Liberty's advice on s.44 stop and searches etc.

James.

[FlyingPhotog]

9/11 for you perhaps we in the UK have been rocked by terrorist attacks for many years prior to 9/11.

I don't understand the Cheap Shot line as my comment was neither a shot nor was it cheap.

I was referring specifically to this:

...we certainly do not have anything as draconian as the "Patriot Act" to restrict us.

The Patriot Act has had little to no effect on what average citizens can or can't do in their daily lives nor has it contributed to members of the press being seen as potential threats.

I'm at major sporting venues on many, many weekends each year and I see members of the press coming and going all day long. I've never seen police or stadium security ever treat reporters, TV cameramen or still photographers in the manner in which the OP described.

It's pretty obvious that people in America have some misconceptions regarding the current state of things in the UK but your post shows that some in the UK have equal misconceptions regarding things in America.

Much (I'm sure) to the dissapointment of Al Queda, life pretty much goes on in the US as it did on 9/10/01. We're just a little bit smarter now and we have eyes and ears working where we may not have had them (or had enough of them) before.

My apologies if I offended you...

[neil_r]

I still dont see why you'd agree with this behaviour, the issues as I see them are:

Sorry, I did not want to come over as agreeing with his behavior, I really don't know enough to have an opinion either way.

It could have been a completely vindictive, unfounded and unjustified attack on your liberties, perpetrated by an ass of a policeman.

It could also have been a justified search because just before you walked down the road he received a call on his radio saying that someone with a black stick and a pelli case had just bought 10Kg's of semtex from Explosives "R" Us.

We just don't know.

[neil_r]

General apology, I am not trying to be contentious or offensive.

I am just being clumsy

[jamesb84]

Sorry, I did not want to come over as agreeing with his behavior, I really don't know enough to have an opinion either way.

It could have been a completely vindictive, unfounded and unjustified attack on your liberties, perpetrated by an ass of a policeman.

It could also have been a justified search because just before you walked down the road he received a call on his radio saying that someone with a black stick and a pelli case had just bought 10Kg's of semtex from Explosives "R" Us.

We just don't know.

That is fair enough, however, if he were to search me under you hypothesised idea, then he would have to inform me of the reasons, and what would be more likely would be that I would have been face down on the ground with no chance to do anything with my "black stick"... I believe under the terms of the search/act they have to tell you WHY they are searching you.

My worry is that s.44 is pretty much carte blanche for photographers to be searched thoroughly and prosecuted/charged for having a photo of something (take Mystery Machine's issue with a "p word"...police see that under a s.44 search and he could be banged up right now for having pictures of children).

James.

[DDCSD]

I'm not a fan of much the Patriot Act, but I've never heard of anyone being legally stopped and searched with the officer saying "I don't care, I would like to search you under section XX of the Patriot Act". In fact I can't seem to find anyone who's rights have been illegally violated using a provision of the Patriot Act.

But I digress, it isn't necessarily the laws that I am bemoaning, it is the utter lack of common sense in administering them. Instead of using common sense, lets just make everyone's life miserable.

I've been to Britain twice and quite enjoyed it and the people. I have nothing against either.

It is the culture of fear in the name of security and privacy that has me concerned. It is spreading throughout the world, it just seems that there are many more stories from Britain lately that demonstrate that.

[lauderdalems]

Should have been open and honest with him. Told him the pod is used to defend yourself from lonely women and last week they tried to rob you of your clothes.

[GSH]

we certainly do not have anything as draconian as the "Patriot Act" to restrict us.

Erm..

Whereas under the old "Prevention of Terrorism Act" Mr Plod needed reasonable grounds for a stop & search, the new, all-singing & all-dancing Terrorism act 2000 (S44) gives them the power to stop anyone in a specific area without prior suspicion. That falls under my definition of draconian. Strange how it was introduced before September 11th 2001...don't you think ?

All the officer needed to do was ask to examine the pod and take a look inside the camera case. The purpose of the aforementioned "weapon" would have been crystal clear even to a Flatfoot who sounds only fit for dishing out fines to people allowing their dogs to have a dump in the park.

[Mark]

That is fair enough, however, if he were to search me under you hypothesised idea, then he would have to inform me of the reasons, and what would be more likely would be that I would have been face down on the ground with no chance to do anything with my "black stick"... I believe under the terms of the search/act they have to tell you WHY they are searching you.

My worry is that s.44 is pretty much carte blanche for photographers to be searched thoroughly and prosecuted/charged for having a photo of something (take Mystery Machine's issue with a "p word"...police see that under a s.44 search and he could be banged up right now for having pictures of children).

James.

So they searched your cards and laptop, if so that is absolutely ridiculous!
If they asked me what the monopod was for I would have said it was to hold camera, if they didn't believe that I would have taken the camera out and assembled it on the monopod for them, and if they wanted to know why you had the camera or whatever I would have shown them your press card.......
If you tried that, and they wanted to search your cards/laptop still (I guess the bag is just okay as you could have a bomb in there, cards/laptop would have seriously pissed me off to the point of nearly hurting someone!) that is just ludicrous!

So how long did they search you laptop/cards for, like go through the whole bloody thing to the point of reading all your emails and stuff like that or what?

[jamesb84]

So they searched your cards and laptop, if so that is absolutely ridiculous!
If they asked me what the monopod was for I would have said it was to hold camera, if they didn't believe that I would have taken the camera out and assembled it on the monopod for them, and if they wanted to know why you had the camera or whatever I would have shown them your press card.......
If you tried that, and they wanted to search your cards/laptop still (I guess the bag is just okay as you could have a bomb in there, cards/laptop would have seriously pissed me off to the point of nearly hurting someone!) that is just ludicrous!

So how long did they search you laptop/cards for, like go through the whole bloody thing to the point of reading all your emails and stuff like that or what?

Asked me to turn on the laptop to check it "was a real laptop" and that was pretty much it for that...they wanted to physically look at the cards (but not what was on them) which I objected to and they gave up. Whole thing took probably 5 minutes or a shade less.

On a related note, and something that could lead to all of us being stopped more often...

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=831582

I would urge all UK photographers to send this on to as many people as possible and protest it wherever sensible to do so.

James.

[Mark]

Asked me to turn on the laptop to check it "was a real laptop" and that was pretty much it for that...they wanted to physically look at the cards (but not what was on them) which I objected to and they gave up. Whole thing took probably 5 minutes or a shade less.

On a related note, and something that could lead to all of us being stopped more often...

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=831582

I would urge all UK photographers to send this on to as many people as possible and protest it wherever sensible to do so.

James.
Oh thank god, still a bit silly, and I reckon the guy was just trying to do a power thing on you. I was assuming like 1hr immigrations interrogation where they search/read all your personal files and such! That would be bad...

Good thing I live in Perth, where when I accidentally shoot in a cordoned off area they come up to me and say "I assume you have all the right passes" and I just say "yeah, I think so" and they just walk off :lol:

[neil_r]

A bit of petrol (gas) for the fire.

Not too good to watch....

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/19/visitor-to-london-vi.html

[GSH]

A bit of petrol (gas) for the fire.

Not too good to watch....

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/19/visitor-to-london-vi.html

I don't know what's more annoying about that video. The fact that it can actually happen in this country or the pompous attitude of the 2 BTP Flatfoot's doing the search. The reaction of Plod#1 to being asked for his ID is particularly annoying.

These people need to be given a sharp reminder that they're here to serve us, not vice-versa.

All credit to the chap with the camera, my patience would have worn very thin, very fast and i'd no doubt have ended up in cuffs.

[DDCSD]

A bit of petrol (gas) for the fire.

Not too good to watch....

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/19/visitor-to-london-vi.html

Wow.

[Blackey Cole]

I used to go all over the UK with a camera and a tripod back in the early 80's without being noticed except for my American western dress and boots. I will have to dig up the negatives from one of the first NFL games at Wembly Stadium and scan them in to the computer.

[TheSportsGuy]

Man, that sucks....

Sounds too much like Fascism to me. It's sad that people are so paranoid to the point were they don't even need an excuse to search you.

What, exactly, kind of weapon looks like a monopod? Seriously, it is complete stupidity.

[FlyingPhotog]

Man, that sucks....

Sounds too much like Fascism to me. It's sad that people are so paranoid to the point were they don't even need an excuse to search you.

What, exactly, kind of weapon looks like a monopod? Seriously, it is complete stupidity.

Pipe Bomb comes to mind...

[skintero]

So this is what I have to look forward to during my three year assignment to the UK? Good to know this up front as I plan on occasionally carrying my camera and monopod with me on trips into London and around the UK. My family and I are very much looking forward to the move.

[sinister]

Here are a few links from the week after the rozzers were told to lay off. Just imagine, while they are wasting yours and their time there could be a real terrorist gathering intel on his mobile phone. But, having said that, we all know terrorists only use hulking great DSLRs to do recon with, so as not to draw attention to themselves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8384972.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/08/police-search-photographer-terrorism-powers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/11/snapshot-special-branch-terror-suspect

http://www.nuj.org.uk/innerPagenuj.html?docid=1439

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/ITN_film_crew_stopped_while_covering_photographer_ story_news_292827.html


I've been stopped a number of times now, and on two of those occasions for just carrying a camera, with the strap slung over my shoulder, camera hanging.

I don't understand why these rozzers don't even understand s44. When you ask them perfectly legitimate questions about the stop and search, nine times out of ten they have to radio in for advice and clarification. If they are using s44 to this degree then they should know the part of the act they're using inside out.

[neil_r]

This thread is getting to be like Christmas, it comes round every year in December :-)

[sinister]

There's been a rash of it this week, the week after the chief constables have told them to lay off, almost as if they've got a point to prove. I wonder if it would make the news if it wasn't the press who were getting pulled up?

[neil_r]

There's been a rash of it this week, the week after the chief constables have told them to lay off, almost as if they've got a point to prove. I wonder if it would make the news if it wasn't the press who were getting pulled up?

My guess is no. On the Andrew Marr clip it was interesting that the Police Officer said that it was the "support officer" with her that thought the activity was suspicious ???

[sinister]

I was taking a picture of the local elderly residents having a wee protest recently, literally within five metres of my front door. I got off one shot on my old spotmatic before being confronted by a pcso and told I needed to have the permission of every one in the picture before taking an image. I explained the legislation to her but she wouldn't have it, taking the camera from me and threatening to expose the film. The WPC with her who she spoke to for advice had no idea about s44 either, she refereed her to the nearby sergeant. After about 15 minutes faffing and me explaining s44 to her and what she could and couldn't do, she led me over to the sergeant. She then proceeded to relay to the sergeant what I had told her, after which the sergeant said, "yes he's absolutely right in what he says, give him back his camera". I couldn't help but have a smug look on my face, and the look on the PCSOs face was priceless.

But once again the Met ending out people without enough information about the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. It's all very well them quoting section 44 anti terrorism at people, but you'd think they'd at least have some sort of understanding of the legislation they are trying to use against you.

[GSH]

I was taking a picture of the local elderly residents having a wee protest .

A fine choice of words Sir! :D

[sinister]

We (no pun honest!) all get there eventually!

[jamesb84]

This thread is getting to be like Christmas, it comes round every year in December :-)

Wow, was it really a year ago I was subjected to Bristol City v Burnley and got S&S'ed...let's see, in the proceeding 12 months I have been stopped twice more and had s76 threatened to one of my (now former) employers over a shot taken outside a local derby game and the police presence.

Nothing changes, I'm collecting my stop and search forms like Top Trumps now.

[sinister]

Ooo I'm still after an s76!

[jamesb84]

Ooo I'm still after an s76!

Now that's all blown over (the game was back in April and it's only just sorted) I have to say that an s.76 is a LOT scarier than a s.44

It got to the point with solicitors and some very nastily worded letters from the Police Service concerned.

Given that this probably would have been a landmark case if it had gone to court...I (and/or my employers) could have been facing a maximum of 10yrs imprisonment!!

It was not a nice experience at all.

[SwiftFootTim]

And as always...England prevails

I remember how the meaning of words began to change. How unfamiliar words like "collateral" and "rendition" became frightening, while things like Norsefire and the Articles of Allegiance became powerful. I remember how "different" became dangerous. I still don't understand it, why they hate us so much.

Two of my favorite quotes from V for Vendetta. I thought that some Americans went overboard with the anti-terrorism stuff, but it seems much worse for you all!

[sinister]

"s76 permits the arrest of anyone found "eliciting, publishing or communicating information" relating to members of the armed forces, intelligence services and police officers, which is "likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

Isthe onus on you to prove you weren't or them to prove you were?

[jamesb84]

"s76 permits the arrest of anyone found "eliciting, publishing or communicating information" relating to members of the armed forces, intelligence services and police officers, which is "likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

Isthe onus on you to prove you weren't or them to prove you were?

This is mainly the thrust of the issue...no-one really knows yet. There's also the argument over what constitutes "useful to a person..."

[sinister]

I get the impression the legislation is deliberately set out in this manner to cause confusion, how hard is it to issue a clear instruction on something as simple as if you can record an image or not.

[DDCSD]

"s76 permits the arrest of anyone found "eliciting, publishing or communicating information" relating to members of the armed forces, intelligence services and police officers, which is "likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

Isthe onus on you to prove you weren't or them to prove you were?


That is one of the scariest things I have ever seen. Talk about leaving it completely open to interpretation and the whim of whoever the enforcer is. With cameras on every street corner in London, any photo you take is "relating" to those things.

[sinister]

It makes you wonder if the eejits that come up with this rubbish have heard of google earth/maps flickr & the rest.