MPE-65 or.... ?

[phantelope]

So, with Christmas and all that coming up, I'm thinking about what I should get for myself, and I really want to expand with macro photography. Also I have all the "regular" areas of photography covered, except extreme zoom (400mm+) which I'd not really use all that often.

I've been thinking about getting the MPE-65 lens, but I'm also wondering if Just a stack of tubes would not get me the same results? I have the 60mm macro lens.

I would loose some f-stops, sure, but how often would I use the MPE-65 wide open? DOF is so minimal in macro, I'd probably mostly use f8 or 11 or thereabout.

So, is the MPE-65 my best bet, or a stack of Kenko tubes? The MPE-65 costs $840 (did that just go up in price?), Kenko stack costs about $170. that means that I could get the tubes and add the MT-24EX dual head flash at $625 for some $795 total, a good $50 less than the MPE-65 by itself would cost me.

Hmmm....... I have the dual head flash on extended loan from a friend, but that won't last for ever, so down the road I'd have to get that one (I really like it).

What to do, what to do......

(of course, there's the third option of reversing my old Minolta 50mm lens and using that for macro too.......)

So, MPE-65 or Kenko tubes and flash?

Thanks for any input, as I can't quite figure out what magnification(s) I can get the the tubes vs. the dedicated lens.

[r.morales]

If you can afford the MPE-65 go for it . The more "stuff " you add , the bigger the chance of dropping , dust , sloppy fit etc .
Either way there is a pretty big learning curve [ I have read . ]
With tubes and doublers you lose light / f-stop[s] .

[luigis]

I think you have your maths wrong.
The MPE-65 is a 5:1 macro lens, there are no tubes in the world that will give you 5:1 magnification from your 60mm macro lens. With 68mm of tubes you can get to 2:1 magnification with the 60mm.
With a prime lens like a 24mm or 28mm and tubes you can get more magnification, the 24mm L with 68mm of tubes can get 3:1 magnification. Still far from 5:1

Hope it helps

Luigi

[phantelope]

thanks, that's just the info I was looking for! I'm not sure how to calculate the math here and what ever I get should get me the highest magnification possible w/o having to use microscopes or other more esoteric attachments.

Now I'll just have to see if there are discounts or wait a bit till Jan~~

[r.morales]

You can also get reversing rings , a lens coupler [ one lens screws onto another . I have no idea what mag you get and it probably depends on the lens used .

[phantelope]

I thought about that reversing, but I also can't figure out what mag I'd get with what combo, but I don't think it's anywhere close to what I can get with the MPE-65. A tricky beast from what I understand, but I want to get high magnification of things, it's so much fun to blow every day small things way out of proportion and even more fun to find all those textures and image options in stuff lying around the house, barely noticed.

If anybody has some kind of formula on how to calculate the possible magnification(s) that would be great!

Also, will the crop factor play a role with the MPE-65? Increase or decrease magnification?

[TheSonofDarwin]

Others will likely disagree with me, but if you can't afford the MPE-65 AND the flash unit, I would get the tubes and the flash. I'd argue that lighting is the #1 important thing for macro photography. You can look in the Macro folder to see some of the crazy lighting mods we come up with. You won't get the same magnification as the MPE-65 but do you need it? I'd definitely get the flash and tubes for now and sell off the tubes and 60mm when you can afford the MPE-65.

Take a good look at what you'll be shooting at 5x and consider your lighting options.

[phantelope]

you certainly have a point. For now I can have the flash on extended loan, but that might of course change any day if my friend needs it again. I have a 580EXII also, but need to get some kind of off camera contraption like those I saw in the show me your's and I show you mine thread and a cable of course.

I often use a light table for macro and do not use the flash in that case though.

Some more thinking is needed...

[DreDaze]

Others will likely disagree with me, but if you can't afford the MPE-65 AND the flash unit, I would get the tubes and the flash. I'd argue that lighting is the #1 important thing for macro photography. You can look in the Macro folder to see some of the crazy lighting mods we come up with. You won't get the same magnification as the MPE-65 but do you need it? I'd definitely get the flash and tubes for now and sell off the tubes and 60mm when you can afford the MPE-65.

Take a good look at what you'll be shooting at 5x and consider your lighting options.


i'm pretty sure lordv(brian) uses a 430EX flash on a bracket for his amazing shots...so i think the 580EX should cover the lighting

[Choderboy]

Also, will the crop factor play a role with the MPE-65? Increase or decrease magnification?

No change in magnification. On any body , the MPE will always have a range of between 1x and 5X magnification. What does change is the size of the sensor. As magnification is in relation to sensor size , 1X mag means on a full frame body a bug of about 34mm will fill the frame. On a 1.3 crop , a bug of about 27mm will fill the frame , and on a 1.6 crop , a bug of about 22mm will fill the frame.
So at max 5X magnification, on a 1.6 crop body , an object of around 4mm will almost fill the frame.

In use , this means with an MPE 65 on a 1.6 cop body , the range of objects you could shoot if you want to reasonably fill the frame is around 3mm - 20mm.
On a full frame , more like 5mm-30mm.

Using tubes on non macro lenses , 1.2 - 1.4x magnification might be achieved with a full set of tubes, but the view through the viewfinder will be quite dark due to the tubes , more like what happens when you use the MPE at 4x or 5X.

If you get the 60mm macro , use full set of tubes to achieve around 2x mag , you are still a long way from the 5X of the MPE.

I use MPE with a flash bracket , not as good as MT24, but as mentioned , LordV manages the odd decent image with a bracket and single flash :)

Tubes are good value , so is the MPE. You really do get what you pay for faced with that choice.

[TheSonofDarwin]

i'm pretty sure lordv(brian) uses a 430EX flash on a bracket for his amazing shots...so i think the 580EX should cover the lighting

I do as well when I do macro. However, it is restrictive and limiting - you have to work around it, or make it work for you rather than the other way around. But if you are going to be doing your macro work with a light table then I'd go for the lens - guess we never asked for your intended subject...

[Choderboy]

Here's what you can do with an MPE and a flash bracket:
This spider stayed on my little finger long enough for me to adjust the MPE from 1x , 2x then 3x magnification one handed. I was going for 4X when it jumped off. You'd need 4 hands to do that with tubes , a lot more time , and you'd never get to 3x mag.
These are all uncropped on a 1.3 crop body

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2320686948_03e5a4d5b6_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2319873489_4101df6b52_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2348/2320687780_119b55cc2a_o.jpg

[TheSonofDarwin]

You'd need 4 hands to do that with tubes, a lot more time , and you'd never get to 3x mag.

Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't see how zooming/moving a lens on a bracket would require less hands than zooming/moving a lens+tubes not on a bracket?

[DreDaze]

i think he means putting my tubes on the lens/camera

[Choderboy]

Can you clarify what you mean here? I don't see how zooming/moving a lens on a bracket would require less hands than zooming/moving a lens+tubes not on a bracket?

To range from 1X to even anywhere near 3X mag , will require adding tubes.
Maybe even changing lenses. ie , lens used "normally" for 1x , then may need reversing to achieve decent increase in magnification.

Point was with MPE you just twist to achieve massive change in magnification and to any mag you want within it's range. Using a zoom lenswith tubes is a little more flexible than primes , but for macro I think a zoom lens is a poor choice.

[LordV]

You can certainly get near the mag of an MPE-65 with a set of ext tubes and a reversed 50mm lens on the front or indeed with various bellows setups. As Choderboy says the MPE-65 is just a lot more comveniant to use out in the field.
Brian V.

[r.morales]

As far as the flash ring , you can find them on ebay starting at about 100 - off brand .
If you have the time , You can make your own chart with the light table / box .
A piece of graph paper , measure distance to tripod and start taking pictures with different lenses and tubes , Look at on your monitor and measure - rought and crude but it will give you a ball park idea .
Be nice and post your results .

[DreDaze]

here's quite the deal on a used mp-e...honestly someday i hope to own that lens...but today is not the day, as i don't have the money...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290282071547

if you use live.com/ebays 20% cashback it puts it at 539...not bad, and you'll have savings towards your lighting set up

live.com link:
http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=overstock+electronics&go=&form=QBRE&qs=n

edt:...cashback has dropped already...oh well...sorry
i'm sure it will be back at some point...hopefully someone gets a deal on it

[r.morales]

I just bought a 35-350 off ebay or I would buy it .

[phantelope]

thanks for all the input! That tiny spider might just have sold me on the lens...

My subjects vary, a lot of flower details, vegetables etc, but also just things like pasta, electronic pieces, paint brush, and of course the occasional bug I find here, though there aren't all that many. I've used my "light table" - which is actually just a small illuminated drawing thing to trace photos - with all of the above, the result is a magnified view of something little that seems to float in white space.

But I really like to go into deep detail, and more magnification is just what helps there. It's fun to blow common things completely out of proportion and have people wonder what they're looking at :-)

Thanks again, I think I'll probably get the lens and add the flash someday down the road, for now I can have the one I borrowed.

Macro is highly addictive fun, I'm surprised it's legal :-)

[r.morales]

Look at the spider pics again - this time look at depth of field . Not sure if you though of it , the more mag you do the more the DOF shrinks . Sometimes it's better to take a raw picture crop and blow up for DOF .
I still want that lens when I can afford it tho .

[Mathiau]

i'm pretty sure lordv(brian) uses a 430EX flash on a bracket for his amazing shots...so i think the 580EX should cover the lighting


correct allyou need to do with the flash is make a cover so flash goes down, using paper towel , or a plastic jug, you can buy a MPE-65 and use a flash just fine, you just need to make a custom flash reflector, which is easy enough , as said check out Lord V - as far as i am conerned, GOD of macro!

[r.morales]

Well , last post meant I bookmarked this thread and into macro folder .
My memory sucks .

[phantelope]

DOF sure does get tiny, but that's part of the fun sometimes. And can be fixed with focus stacking with great results, though at times pretty tedious.

I have an old 50mm lens and might get the rings to flip it, but it's not a very handy thing to take outside. I'd be afraid of all kinds of dust and dirt (pollen etc) getting into open back of the lens.

[r.morales]

The body end lens cap works , just don't take off and leave off . Just like lens cap , when done replace cap .

[TheSonofDarwin]

The body end lens cap works , just don't take off and leave off . Just like lens cap , when done replace cap .

Yep, that works fine. I actually prefer when I have the 50mm reversed on the end because I don't have to worry about the huge, exposed lens on the 100mm. If I bump into something, like a wall, with the backend of the 50mm I won't be scratching the front (uhh.. back) element. I'm not sure if all 50mm are created equal, but the back element on mine is easy to clean.

[r.morales]

No all the 50's are not the same . Mine [ like yours ? ] is a mark 1 metal mount . The new ones have a plastic mount .
Reversing does away with auto focus - so you can use any brand that has the right filter size .
I don't know about screwing 2 lens together [ wether auto focus works or not . ] I just got a couple of the adapters .

[LordV]

One point about reversing a 50mm lens is the old mechanical lenses are great for this and very cheap on Ebay - they have the advantage if reversing directly onto the camera body of having mechanical aperture control.

Brian V.

[phantelope]

coming back to this, the MPE-65 is of course nowhere to be touched in any store here so I can't just try it out.

So, I'm curious, what does the ring do? Just change the magnification ratio? I read somewhere that the "manual focus" in this case means moving the entire camera back and forth (by fractions o fan inch of course), is that how it works? It would probably be the way I'll focus anyway, just curious. Also it seems that the lens gets really long at the (I presume) 5x end, is that an issue in practicality? Like moving in on a bug with a tank?

Or do you mostly decide up front what magnification you want and then move in?

I'm more and more thinking that I'll have a lot of fun with this lens, but it is a bundle to pay for something I can't try.

If anybody knows of a reliable and not overly expensive lens rental place that services California, I might actually rent it for a couple days before I buy it.

I just love macro :-)

Oliver

[brecklundin]

pretty much the standard bearer of lens rentals around:

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/canon-mp-e-65mm-1-5x-macro/for-canon

[macro junkie]

the lens is great if you have a good flash.with out a flash the lens is useless really.

if you wanting to shoot 1x life size and above all the time then the lens is worth getting..mpe-65 is really the only lens i use so it was worth me buying it..if you rent it you need it for weeks as it takes a bit of getting use to..The hardest bit about it is working distance.when your shooting bugs its kind of tricky.That's when studying the bugs on how they move ect helps alot..