XTI comments

[Ronin1]

Ok this is really my first thread in this forum. I joined a few days ago, and wanted to ask for some help. I am a martial arts teacher and have a demo team. I started with a powershot, and struggled to get good action shots. They were either blurry or too noisy because in the gym I cranked up the ISO for low light, and fast speed. A short time later for no apparent reason I became hooked on photography. I recently decided to purchase a relatively inexpensive camera. I purchased an XTI with the lens kit. I figured for the price it would be good to learn on. I have a long way to go but am plugging along. Now enough with the boring stuff..... I recently tried to use the XTI in sports mode with burst shooting. All of the pics came out blurry. I went to regular mode (portrait) and found that the images were clear with no motion blur. Am I doing something wrong in sports mode and do I have a camera that can handle sports action? Should I look to upgrade? I hope not cause I know I have a lot to learn, and am eager to do so. I figure the camera should be able to handle these situations. I am looking for some suggestions. Thank you all in advance for any help.

[DDCSD]

The best thing to do is not use the "auto" modes. They just don't work in less than ideal situations.

The best thing to do is to learn how to use manual. It can be intimidating, but will usually yield the most consistent results. You need to set your camera up so that you'll get shutter speeds of minimum 1/250s, and really 1/500s or faster would be much better. You'll most likely need to use ISO 1600 and have your lens at its widest aperture (smallest number). Until you get comfortable with manual, try using AV mode. Set your camera to its widest aperture to get the fastest shutter speeds.

I highly recommend getting the book "Understanding Exposure". It is well written and easy to understand. It will help you get better results in no time.
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Exposure-Photographs-Digital-Updated/dp/0817463003/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229295941&sr=8-1

You may need to get a lens with a wider aperture, to allow for faster shutter speeds. A great low light lens is the Canon 85mm f/1.8. It has very quick autofocus and is one of the finest lenses made for under $350. If you're on a bit more of a budget, the Canon 50mm f/1.8 can be had for less than $100 and will allow for faster shutter speeds, however the AF of that lens isn't great. It is still a good lens though.

And lastly, be sure to post some of the results that you are not happy with here. The folks here can help you understand what went wrong and suggest ways to improve. There is some very helpful people here.

Welcome to POTN!!!

[Ronin1]

Thanks for the advice. I have looked into those lenses. Yeah they are expensive, so it may have to wait until after the holidays! I will try to post some of those photos soon. Hopefully I can find a happy medium with what I have until I can get that lens. Thanks any other suggestions please let me know.

[johndevane]

Ronin,

Derek is giving you great advice. I would also suggest the purchase of an 85 f1.8 as the best option for you. The only thing more important than equipment is practice and knowledge, which you should completely understand from your martial arts background. Low light action photography is widely considered the most difficult "discipline".

Your camera is fine. The XTI in my bag has served me well. Your lens does need to be upgraded to get great results, but you didn't ask for us to spend your money, you asked for help.

So for the time being; you seem like you really want to learn, so I'll post a challenge to you. I promise to help you step by step along the way, as long as you accept. This challenge will not require any cost to you, besides time and effort.

1. Set your camera on AV, ISO 1600, f-(smallest #), Center point focus, AI Servo, Custom function 4.1 (Using the * button), Auto White Balance, and image quality RAW. (Consult your owners manual for references to all the gibberish I just listed.) You'll have to learn how to convert a RAW image to JPEG using your DPP program that came with your camera. You'll also have to learn how to post images on this site.

2. Take a picture of someone indoors doing an action move. It can be a kid doing martial arts, or your wife doing jumping jacks in the kitchen. Doesn't matter. Post the picture here, and we'll move on.

John.

[SnapLocally.com]

Ok, lecture time.

1) An 85mm lens may not the best lens for a martial arts instructor with a 1.6x crop sensor camera for a few reasons:

a. being a teacher, I'm assuming he'll have to be close to the action, and having an equivelent of a 136mm lens is way to close for most close-up shots

b. most schools/dojos (assuming this where the demo will be held) aren't all that spacious, and between people and equipment, usually have quite a bit going on, making a zoom lens much more practical in this environment

2) "AV" is a poor choice of setting for shooting martial arts, assuming the practitioners are wearing gi's. White gi's will throw off the exposure rendering most shots too dark; blue and black will do the opposite.

3) ISO 1600 may not be needed, and not particularly recommended on an XTi unless shots just can't be taken without it.

4) Shooting in RAW for action with a camera that has a relatively slow prosessor... I don't recommend it. For one, it's overkill. Hundreds of shots could be taken, and processing each of them in RAW- time consuming and unpleasant. Second, it eats through card space much faster. Third (and most importantly) shots are likely to be missed because the camera is buffering. Given that the settings (both exposure value and white balance) were taken properly the first time, jpegs will be sufficient.

[DDCSD]

1)
a. True, 85mm might be a little long, a 50mm or 30mm might be better.

b. A zoom is out of the question though, f/2.8 just won't cut it unless this place is lit up like a Christmas tree.

2) M would be ideal, but sometimes you gotta walk before you run. AV can handle it just fine, as long as one learns to set the EC.

3) Again, I doubt this place is that well lit that you can get ISO800 or better. A noisy shot is better than a blurry shot any day.

4) The XTi has an 8 shot buffer with Ljpg/RAW and shoots at 3fps. That is almost 3 seconds of holding the shutter down in continuous. If you're holding the shutter down at 3fps for 3 seconds, you're not going to be getting any good shots anyways.

The best thing that happened to me was my buffer constantly filling up on my 20D when I first got it. It taught me to time my shots, not just hold the shutter down.

[SnapLocally.com]

Two of your suppositions concerning lighting are based on an amateur photographers inability to catch a clear shot using a kit lens. Sure, that could mean there's really bad light, making iso 1600 and a f/1.8 prime necessary. But then, getting blurry shots out of an amateur isn't too difficult of a task to achieve. Oh well. What do I know about the pesky little nuances of things like camera settings, exposure values, or timing.

http://snaplocally.com/cellar/6.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/warrior/04.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/canterbury/10.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/botb/suplex.jpg

[DDCSD]

Good point, only look at the images at 500px on the long end. Even with marginal shutter speeds, they'll look just fine.

You're pictures are well timed to make the shutter speed less of an issue, and at 35mm, the blur won't show quite as much.

Almost all of your shots shown are at f/2.8 of lower, and 35mm. Sorry, the kit lens won't do f/2.8 at 35mm (or anywhere for that matter). All of your shutter speeds are too slow for the inexperience shooter to avoid motion blur. Yes, there are techniques that experienced shooters can employ to minimize the appearance of motion blur, but I'd rather have gear that is capable of doing it on its own.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in the above post. You talk about amateurs and kit lenses, and then post a bunch of photos that were not taken with a kit lens. One of them was at ISO3200 and f/2.2. Two others at ISO1600 (one of those at f/2.5) and the first at ISO1000 and 1/160s at f2/8.

Obviously you can get some decent shots with marginal shutter speeds, but I'd rather not toss out most of my shots because I can't get below f/2.8 and get a decent shutter speed.

[FrickzPicz]

Ronin??!?!?!

Hey guys is the XT a good camera?? I was given a generous amount of money by my parents for xmas, and i was thinking about getting a new lens, It would have to fall under the 6 inch Actual Lens requirement. But ya i mainly shoot NFL 49ers games home and away. Any help would be appreciated. I am not worried about the size of the lens when zoomed just before :p

[SnapLocally.com]

Sorry the point was so cryptic to you, DDCSD: The first shot was taken with a zoom lens in a gym, and wasn't "light up like a christmas tree", negating your point, your insinuation that only a prime would cut it. The other photos merely illustrate both precision of timing coupled with poor lighting, both subjects I have plenty of experience with, and I've gotta say this: shooting within the confines of a controlled environment such as a gym, using a zoom lens, is far easier than most of the live fighting events I've shot.

Almost all of your shots shown are at f/2.8 of lower, and 35mm... All of your shutter speeds are too slow for the inexperience shooter to avoid motion blur. Yes, there are techniques that experienced shooters can employ to minimize the appearance of motion blur, but I'd rather have gear that is capable of doing it on its own.

You do realize that once you max out the iso and aperture, which I've resorted to, primes and all, you're out of options, right? Because this magical "gear that is capable of doing it on its own" is a foreign concept to me.

Obviously you can get some decent shots with marginal shutter speeds, but I'd rather not toss out most of my shots because I can't get below f/2.8 and get a decent shutter speed.

Newsflash: provided there's much action, using a prime such as a "nifty fifty" is going to give you DOF issues if used wide open, opening the door for your discarded shots you tried to avoid in the first place. No, you'll end up stopping down, and getting slightly faster marginal speeds, and physically moving around a whole lot more because of the fixed focal length, quite possibly missing shots in the process. That said, I'll use a prime when needed, and have plenty of times, as shown above. In fact, I'm the only one in this thread that provided any evidence of experience in this field, not "what I'd do"- I've done it. Maybe you have, too- I don't know. If you have, go ahead, let's see what you've got.

[Ronin1]

I will be close to the action for the most part. I am there to coach when I am allowed to. This depends on the event, and I am there to take photos if I can not coach. The tournaments/demos are usually held in middle or high school gyms with very poor lighting. And there tend to be a lot of people there. My team wears a variety of colors to include red, blue, green, white, and black.
Ok, lecture time.

1) An 85mm lens may not the best lens for a martial arts instructor with a 1.6x crop sensor camera for a few reasons:

a. being a teacher, I'm assuming he'll have to be close to the action, and having an equivelent of a 136mm lens is way to close for most close-up shots

b. most schools/dojos (assuming this where the demo will be held) aren't all that spacious, and between people and equipment, usually have quite a bit going on, making a zoom lens much more practical in this environment

2) "AV" is a poor choice of setting for shooting martial arts, assuming the practitioners are wearing gi's. White gi's will throw off the exposure rendering most shots too dark; blue and black will do the opposite.

3) ISO 1600 may not be needed, and not particularly recommended on an XTi unless shots just can't be taken without it.

4) Shooting in RAW for action with a camera that has a relatively slow prosessor... I don't recommend it. For one, it's overkill. Hundreds of shots could be taken, and processing each of them in RAW- time consuming and unpleasant. Second, it eats through card space much faster. Third (and most importantly) shots are likely to be missed because the camera is buffering. Given that the settings (both exposure value and white balance) were taken properly the first time, jpegs will be sufficient.

[Ronin1]

Thanks I am willing to try that. I don't have any of the recent pics cause all of the bad ones I deleted from my computer. I did attempt to take some pics of friends dancing in a living room with dim lighting. They were fooling around, and I used burst mode. Would those do otherwise I will get some shots in a few days, I have been kinda laid up sick then a ton of training for work!
Ronin,

Derek is giving you great advice. I would also suggest the purchase of an 85 f1.8 as the best option for you. The only thing more important than equipment is practice and knowledge, which you should completely understand from your martial arts background. Low light action photography is widely considered the most difficult "discipline".

Your camera is fine. The XTI in my bag has served me well. Your lens does need to be upgraded to get great results, but you didn't ask for us to spend your money, you asked for help.

So for the time being; you seem like you really want to learn, so I'll post a challenge to you. I promise to help you step by step along the way, as long as you accept. This challenge will not require any cost to you, besides time and effort.

1. Set your camera on AV, ISO 1600, f-(smallest #), Center point focus, AI Servo, Custom function 4.1 (Using the * button), Auto White Balance, and image quality RAW. (Consult your owners manual for references to all the gibberish I just listed.) You'll have to learn how to convert a RAW image to JPEG using your DPP program that came with your camera. You'll also have to learn how to post images on this site.

2. Take a picture of someone indoors doing an action move. It can be a kid doing martial arts, or your wife doing jumping jacks in the kitchen. Doesn't matter. Post the picture here, and we'll move on.

John.

[johndevane]

Ronin,

Posting any kind of picture and it's EXIF data will help others to help you. And as far as the differences in opinions that have come out in this thread, I think you should take advice from all sides, then apply what works best for you.

I'm sure it's everyones opinion that we want you to enjoy photography and get results that you're happy with. My offer still stands.

And by the way, the intial setup I listed would certainly be changed as lessons continued, leading up to my preferred style of bounced flash as an end result. Other great photogs on this site, like Adam Lewis for example, will say that ambient lighting is the way to go. That's for you to decide when you have a grasp of the concepts, and have the ability to make good images either way.

Don't let "healthy debate" seem like "useless arguing" as it sometimes appears over the internet, where no body language can be read. Look at the images from DDCSD and SnapLocally, and you'll find that each one of them are making great pictures in sometimes different ways.

John.

[Ronin1]

I just purchased a 50mm f/1.8 lens made by Canon. It may serve the purpose because I will be somewhat close to the action when my students do their forms and fight. There may be a BJJ tournament I will be competing in soon and I expect the lens on the 24th according to the website but being Christmas Eve I am not too optimistic about getting it until after the 25th. So when I get the lens I will try and take photos of my teammates at the BJJ comp. and if that doesn't happen I will get some shots of my students with the kit lens and this new one. I will try them out see what happens and post some results here for any help that you all can offer! Thanks.
[quote=DDCSD;6897067]1)
a. True, 85mm might be a little long, a 50mm or 30mm might be better.

[SnapLocally.com]

The "nifty fifty" is a good lens to have, though it can be a little long for inside stuff. I also own the 35mm f/2, which I find more useful indoors. The 50mm will do the trick though, provided you've got the space to zoom with your feet.

I've shot a little BJJ myself:

http://snaplocally.com/silva/02.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/silva/03.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/silva/05.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/silva/10.jpg

I *attempted* to study seminar photography before the shoot, but just came up with garbage- I couldn't find any good shots or ideas to base what my work should look like. So, I went along with the action, taking what they gave me, using ambient light.

[johndevane]

Ronin,

Congrats on the new lens. We're excited to see your pictures of BJJ, but don't forget about the great tradition here... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=612840&highlight=duck+tradition ... You'll be cursed if you break it! :)

John.

[Ronin1]

Ok does the duck have to be real:D Cause around here they will be hard to come by cause they have all gone south, most of them anyway.
Ronin,

Congrats on the new lens. We're excited to see your pictures of BJJ, but don't forget about the great tradition here... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=612840&highlight=duck+tradition ... You'll be cursed if you break it! :)

John.

[Ronin1]

Great pics. He is such a good fighter. Yeah BJJ can be hard cause there can be some very fast scrambles, and some very boring action when there is somewhat of a stalemate on the ground, like when you can't pass some guys guard for some unknown reason! Yeah it happened once. I will be able to get pretty close. We are allowed to sit on the side of the mat to "coach" or "cheer" our team mates on. Hopefully I can compete in the tournament. If not maybe I can practice during class.
The "nifty fifty" is a good lens to have, though it can be a little long for inside stuff. I also own the 35mm f/2, which I find more useful indoors. The 50mm will do the trick though, provided you've got the space to zoom with your feet.

I've shot a little BJJ myself:

http://snaplocally.com/silva/02.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/silva/03.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/silva/05.jpg

http://snaplocally.com/silva/10.jpg

I *attempted* to study seminar photography before the shoot, but just came up with garbage- I couldn't find any good shots or ideas to base what my work should look like. So, I went along with the action, taking what they gave me, using ambient light.

[DDCSD]

Ok does the duck have to be real:D Cause around here they will be hard to come by cause they have all gone south, most of them anyway.

Nope, rubber duckies, duck slippers or anything else that appears duck-like will do just fine.

[johndevane]

Ronin,

You should make your first picture of a student performing a "duck under" wrestling move. That'll work! :)

[Ronin1]

I can do that I did wrestle in high school. I gotta actually go see some of my students wrestling meets. Maybe we can stage it after one of them :)

[Ohiodude]

Good thread for a beginner.

[Ronin1]

Good thread for a beginner.
Thanks. Had to get that question out there to avoid frustration! I am already looking for a duck. I am expecting my new lens on the 24th. I am hoping for some good results soon.

[Ronin1]

Got the lens today! Gonna play around with it taking some pics. Then I am gonna take a pic of a duck and post it :)