Do ya really want to be a professional?

[chauncey]

Ya might want to check out the new Rangefinder magazine where you will find an article entitled "The Economics of $urvival".

You newbies out there might want to reevaluate your goals.

[MattMoore]

NOPE!

Most people see pro photography through rose-colored glasses.

I'd be afraid of getting burnt out on something I look forward to doing presently.

[scotteisenphotography]

I am still going to try...i'll be in college the next four years at least being a photography major w/ business minor... I'm sure i'll learn the right ways to go, and getting connections will always help. Of course it's going to be hard, but it's not totally intangible.

[airfrogusmc]

I've never regretted doing it full time and have been doing it full time for over 20 years. I graduated with a B/A in it in 1986. Why not do something you LOVE. It will show in your work and the day it becomes work I'll get out. I still work on personal projects other than what I do professionally. Its not easy but if you're willing to work and find a way to separate yourself from the crowd you can make a decent living doing it. I have...

[Zillon]

Certainly puts a perspective on things, as I just switched out of graphic design and into photography as a major. Guess I'll just have to see what happens.

Find it here: http://www.rangefindermag.com/

[_aravena]

I plan to teach and shoot in the summer and occasionally throughout the year. I never thought of photography as a solo job unless I made it BIG, like that guy off Next Top Model. :rolleyes: :p

[PhotographersMate]

Why not? If your work is something you love then it's not really work. Imagine if we could all do what we really want to do..

[MattMoore]

I mean, don't get me wrong; I'd love to do it professionally...but when I think professionally, I think like magazines (Natgeo, Outdoor Photographer, etc) or even teaching.

Not getting orders barked at me by pushy brides or scary moms (living vicariously through their children)....I thought thats what he was referring to.

[neilwood32]

I think you would find that its not only brides and moms that can be pushy - i would imagine most magazine editors are pretty pushy!

I would love to earn from photography but i dont think i would want to have to rely on it as my sole income (especially in the current financial climate).

[airfrogusmc]

I mean, don't get me wrong; I'd love to do it professionally...but when I think professionally, I think like magazines (Natgeo, Outdoor Photographer, etc) or even teaching.

Not getting orders barked at me by pushy brides or scary moms (living vicariously through their children)....I thought thats what he was referring to.

Then don't do weddings. I don't. Theres plenty of other areas you can make a good living working in.

[sapearl]

Actually, it's not so bad and that rarely happens to me. It's all about knowing how to interact with and effectively communicate with people. If you enjoy working with people, can be patient with them and are confident in your work, then you can be successful.

.....Not getting orders barked at me by pushy brides or scary moms (living vicariously through their children)....I thought thats what he was referring to.

[chauncey]

Yeah but...look in that crystal ball/hindsite.
If you were young again, knowing what you now know, would you still try to be a Pro?

[MattMoore]

Actually, it's not so bad and that rarely happens to me. It's all about knowing how to interact with and effectively communicate with people. If you enjoy working with people, can be patient with them and are confident in your work, then you can be successful.

I do enjoy working with people...guess I only hear the bad side of wedding photography from my friends (who are wedding photogs).

I've been trying to get in on some 2nd shooting to try it out as a weekend 2nd income.

[sapearl]

I can certainly understand - it's always the horror stories which make for the more exciting and horrifying tales :lol:. When everything goes smoothly, where's the mayhem in that ;). Being second shooter would give you some great experience.

I do enjoy working with people...guess I only hear the bad side of wedding photography from my friends (who are wedding photogs).

I've been trying to get in on some 2nd shooting to try it out as a weekend 2nd income.

[Paul Tinworth]

Yes, but for the time being I'm aware of some of my limits. I'm setting up to seriously - but gently - go into it part-time with a friend, but we're both getting regular day-jobs to support ourselves.

After all the horror stories I've read in this forum about weddings (and the many bitchy threads/posts about 'weekend warriors'), I still gave it a go and discovered I absolutely loved it! I'm sure things will go wrong (my 40D conked out recently for starters... thankfully not on a paid job!), but a level head and some moral support will do wonders.

Good luck to anyone else who's giving it their best!

[PhotographersMate]

I hear horror stories from all sorts of wedding photogs..turns me off! I stick to babies. I've been blessed to have angels for moms so far.

[airfrogusmc]

Yeah but...look in that crystal ball/hindsite.
If you were young again, knowing what you now know, would you still try to be a Pro?

ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A DOUBT....;) I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[airfrogusmc]

I did weddings for 20 years. Its not for old men. I got divorced 10 years ago and had the out. I wasn't loving it anymore so I changed directions. I do all corporate work, environmental portraits, formal executive portraits, annual reports, brochures, ads for magazines and newspapers (got stuff in this months Ladies Home Journal and West Suburban Living) corporate events and such.

[kiwichris]

I hear horror stories from all sorts of wedding photogs..turns me off! I stick to babies. I've been blessed to have angels for moms so far.

Your comment is in fact a reflection on you yourself. I would say you interact with people very well, and they respond with niceness. A lesson many need to learn, including a great many photographers.

[airfrogusmc]

ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A DOUBT....;) I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I just wanted to expand on this a bit Chauncey. Not only has it been rewarding financially but also I look at it as a passport into other worlds. I did high end weddings for long time so I got to shoot weddings at some of the finest hotels in the world. Ritz, 4 Seasons, Intercontinental, Drake, Hilton and got to meet some very interesting people because of photography Mayors, Governors, actors, sports celebs. Get to travel to interesting places paid for by clients. Have been in open heart surgery and micro neuro-surgery and seen things most people never get a chance to all because of photography. And on top of it all I love my job. I don't dread going to work (most days :lol:) I get stuff in major publications occasionally, I lecture and teach (not as much as I use to) and exhibit my personal work (was just in a big show) and it all helps pay the mortgage ...Its all good.

[digirebelva]

Its interesting, to read the responses on here, very candid;) and heartfelt. I was asked by a co-worker who used to own her own video company doing weddings & corporate events, if I thought about going pro someday. (She likes my work I guess;)) Well first off, I know enough, to know I dont know enough to do that yet-still have a lot to learn :D....and second I'm not sure I want the headaches of doing it full time...I like taking photos right now..would I still like it if it became a business....I honestly don't know...

She told me, it was great meeting people and such, but her every weekend were basically taken, first the shoot and then the pp she had to do. Granted she probably had a lot of the week off and that worked well for her, but I have a family, and I dont think they would appreciate me being gone every weekend..(yes I know not every type of photography depends on your working every weekend;)).. The capital outlay is another thing..you guys that do it for a living know its not cheap...Time will tell..;)

[Mum2J&M]

Ya might want to check out the new Rangefinder magazine where you will find an article entitled "The Economics of $urvival".

You newbies out there might want to reevaluate your goals.

I'm wondering why you are addressing only the "newbies." I've been happily doing photography since the age of 10 and not until last year did I have a job doing it. Granted I never was a "pro" (whatever that means), but I did have to get up at 6am, drive an hour, and spend 7 hours in the hot NC sun photographing kids who didn't want to be there... It did take some of the fun out of photography, but there isn't just one generalization of what photography is - I mean, I will never lose interest in taking great pictures of my own children, or seeing something I think could make a great image. Even if I'm burnt out from work, there are so many other areas to explore. And even if you don't do it for work, there are going to be times you burn out and have to put your gear away for awhile. At least that's been my experience. Any job is "work" (hence the term) and if you're passionate about what you do, it is STILL better than just working to get a paycheck IMHO. I've been dealing with this decision for months now - return to photography in an entry-level capacity, or go back to working for the big man earning more money, but getting no fulfillment. I keep leaning toward the former.

[momalley]

I don't want to go pro but I would like to be able to do baby and family portraits that would give me enough money to buy new equipment :)

[chauncey]

The article in question kinda examines the practical economic viability of making it as a professional photographer,
and/or artistic folks in general, in today's and probably tomorrow's economy as well.

I assumed that the older among us have the wherewithal to more reasonably evaluate the wisdom of such a decision.

Regardless, it would appear that the folks with the developed left brain are more able to survive economically for the foreseeable future.

[airfrogusmc]

The article in question kinda examines the practical economic viability of making it as a professional photographer,
and/or artistic folks in general, in today's and probably tomorrow's economy as well.

I assumed that the older among us have the wherewithal to more reasonably evaluate the wisdom of such a decision.

Regardless, it would appear that the folks with the developed left brain are more able to survive economically for the foreseeable future.

Thats why when you are very creative (right brained) and if you are not good with the money you have someone you can trust helping with the finances. The problem is if you don't have your creative edge (right brain) you wont get the work then no need to worry about the finances (left brain).

Once you build your business it does becomes allot easier. I rarely bid on jobs. Clients usually just go by my availability. Money is rarely the issue. They call if I'm available I shoot and then invoice. If I'm lucky the check comes within 30-60 days and all is good. A good accountant and a wife thats much better at the finances than I am which frees me to worry about the vision. Works for me...


Oh and if you always do the safe thing you'll never see how great it is working for yourself. You'll never reach your full potential. Life is a gamble. Look at all those that thought they were safe. Its all about whether you have first the talent, then the smarts, then the courage to do it. I did it and would do it again in a hurry knowing what I know now. Its almost impossibly difficult the first couple of years. But if you can make it and persistence is 80% of it, well I never regreted it. Never quitting...Always bugging potential clients. It took me 5 years to land one of my biggest clients.

[PhotographersMate]

Your comment is in fact a reflection on you yourself. I would say you interact with people very well, and they respond with niceness. A lesson many need to learn, including a great many photographers.


Well I do know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. ;) And having babies myself I know that you need patience. Plus being a woman I think the mothers feel a sense of relief with me..not sure if I put that the correct way. I guess being a mother is a better way to put it. They see my work with my own children and often ask for the same poses. Plus kids can sense goodness in people I think.

[PhotographersMate]

I'm wondering why you are addressing only the "newbies." I've been happily doing photography since the age of 10 and not until last year did I have a job doing it. Granted I never was a "pro" (whatever that means), but I did have to get up at 6am, drive an hour, and spend 7 hours in the hot NC sun photographing kids who didn't want to be there... It did take some of the fun out of photography, but there isn't just one generalization of what photography is - I mean, I will never lose interest in taking great pictures of my own children, or seeing something I think could make a great image. Even if I'm burnt out from work, there are so many other areas to explore. And even if you don't do it for work, there are going to be times you burn out and have to put your gear away for awhile. At least that's been my experience. Any job is "work" (hence the term) and if you're passionate about what you do, it is STILL better than just working to get a paycheck IMHO. I've been dealing with this decision for months now - return to photography in an entry-level capacity, or go back to working for the big man earning more money, but getting no fulfillment. I keep leaning toward the former.

What makes a "pro" a "pro"? Is it that you make a living off your photography? Or what?

[nphsbuckeye]

What makes a "pro" a "pro"? Is it that you make a living off your photography? Or what?
Canon defines pro as a person that makes 51-plus percent of his/her annual income on photography, per CPS.

[Bill Roberts]

I definiitely do not want to do this professionally.
I love photography, but I do it for fun, and I want it to stay that way.

Years ago I did the odd wedding, portraits, and so on, with some success, but it became work rather than pleasure, and I wasn't looking for that. I have no argument with budding professionals who really want to do it, but it's not for me. I don't have any deadlines to meet, if I miss a shot it doesn't matter at all, and basically the only one I have to please is me. Suits me fine!

cheers

[shack]

I asked a very good wedding photographer when the last time he took photographs..."just for the fun of it". He could not remember a time in his recent past when he had done so. I think the question and his answer made him a little sad.

[MJPhotos24]

Long but very good...

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2014

[rdenney]

I already have a job, heh, heh.

Photography shares with other arts the problem that people are often driven to do it by the enjoyment of expressing themselves using that medium. As a result, there are always more people who want to do it than there is the market to support.

And because it's an expensive pursuit, folks not of means try to find a way to get it to fund their acquisition of new stuff.

Neither of these makes for a very good commercial goal or expectation, however. Consequently, we have lots of people thinking about being a professional photographer in rather dreamy terms. Those who have been successful understood the difference between work for hire and self-expression, and they understood that at the end of the day, revenues have to exceed expenses by enough to buy dinner.

I worked as a professional photographer for a brief period, where all my income came from commercial work. That burned me out--I'd gone in thinking somebody would pay me to pursue my hobby, and discovered that they were paying me because they had a goal of their own; they didn't really care about my goals. That was quite an epiphany.

And then I continued to do commercial work off and on for many subsequent years, but because I was smart enough not to depend on it for my living, I could afford to be more choosy. I did many weddings that way, probably to the annoyance of local pros who might think I took work from them. (Actually, I usually did and do weddings for friends where the alternative is Uncle Harry.)

So, for you hobbyists, if you want to be a pro, adjust your expectations to being a pro. Do not expect to enjoy it as you would a hobby, and focus more on achieving satisfaction than just having fun. I'm an engineer by trade, and while it is a rewarding life's work and deeply satisfying, it is not a hobby. I approach my hobbies from an engineering point of view, perhaps, but I don't often do engineering as a hobby. Even when I do, it's in pursuit of something that compels me at the time, for reasons that have nothing to do with my employer's objectives.

Ansel Adams called it "assignments from without" and "assignments from within." He kept those quite separate, even when they overlapped.

Rick "aphorism of the day: 'when you do it for money you can no longer call it love'" Denney

[airfrogusmc]

I already have a job, heh, heh.

Photography shares with other arts the problem that people are often driven to do it by the enjoyment of expressing themselves using that medium. As a result, there are always more people who want to do it than there is the market to support.

And because it's an expensive pursuit, folks not of means try to find a way to get it to fund their acquisition of new stuff.

Neither of these makes for a very good commercial goal or expectation, however. Consequently, we have lots of people thinking about being a professional photographer in rather dreamy terms. Those who have been successful understood the difference between work for hire and self-expression, and they understood that at the end of the day, revenues have to exceed expenses by enough to buy dinner.

I worked as a professional photographer for a brief period, where all my income came from commercial work. That burned me out--I'd gone in thinking somebody would pay me to pursue my hobby, and discovered that they were paying me because they had a goal of their own; they didn't really care about my goals. That was quite an epiphany.

And then I continued to do commercial work off and on for many subsequent years, but because I was smart enough not to depend on it for my living, I could afford to be more choosy. I did many weddings that way, probably to the annoyance of local pros who might think I took work from them. (Actually, I usually did and do weddings for friends where the alternative is Uncle Harry.)

So, for you hobbyists, if you want to be a pro, adjust your expectations to being a pro. Do not expect to enjoy it as you would a hobby, and focus more on achieving satisfaction than just having fun. I'm an engineer by trade, and while it is a rewarding life's work and deeply satisfying, it is not a hobby. I approach my hobbies from an engineering point of view, perhaps, but I don't often do engineering as a hobby. Even when I do, it's in pursuit of something that compels me at the time, for reasons that have nothing to do with my employer's objectives.

Ansel Adams called it "assignments from without" and "assignments from within." He kept those quite separate, even when they overlapped.

Rick "aphorism of the day: 'when you do it for money you can no longer call it love'" Denney

Thats why you keep it separate;)

[radiohead]

I mean, don't get me wrong; I'd love to do it professionally...but when I think professionally, I think like magazines (Natgeo, Outdoor Photographer, etc) or even teaching.

Not getting orders barked at me by pushy brides or scary moms (living vicariously through their children)....I thought thats what he was referring to.

I've never had orders barked at me by pushy brides, or scary Mums....

[primoz]

Yes and no. For me it's still cool job, even though sometimes it's just a job, and sometimes it's crappy job. There's no perfect job on world, but this one is pretty close to it. But sometimes there are times, when I'm sick of everything, and sometimes like standing outside at rain and snow for 5 or 6 hours, certainly doesn't make it look better. But in general, it's still nice job... at least for me.
But then again, it might be more fun to practice photography just as hobby, because having it as job destroys part of fun. Once you have to go out and shoot stuff you don't like, just because this is your job afterall, it certainly takes some magic away from this beautiful thing.

[mspringfield]

I asked a very good wedding photographer when the last time he took photographs..."just for the fun of it". He could not remember a time in his recent past when he had done so. I think the question and his answer made him a little sad.

Ah! Here is the trap, it becomes just another "job". I have been what I call a "semi-pro" for almost 6 years now. I say "semi-pro" because I do have an income from photography but it is not my primary source. Several years ago I fell into this trap. My girlfriend, neighbors and I were gathered around outside watching a lunar eclipse. I had my telescope out watching and my girlfriend looked around and noticed that I didn't have my camera out and asked, "Aren't you going to take any pictures of the eclipse?". My immediate response without even thinking was "No, I can't make any money at it." All of a sudden that response hit me like a ton of bricks. The next day I packed up my camera gear, put it in a closet, canceled all of my shoots and didn't touch a camera for almost a year. When I finally did pull it out again it was for fun. While I still do paid shoots now I am more selective and only take the ones that I think will be "fun". Now I shoot more for pleasure than for money.

Michael

[chauncey]

I kinda directed to the people that ask about turning professional after shooting some nice images.
I generally ask about family responsibilities and the like, then they ask about self taught/college
and I respond about college shows the employer that you have the ability to learn...yadda, yadda, yadda.

I hoped that some of you older guys :lol: would tell them how damnably difficult that it is from
an economic perspective, considering that things will be getting worse for the "new kids on the block".

[airfrogusmc]

Chauncey,

I know allot of photographers that aren't doing well right now and you are right that its really hard to make it as a pro even without the current economic times. Some very good friends of mine that are also very good photographers are not doing well. I've been very lucky...

Allen