help! shooting hockey game, I need some advice

[sonny_c]

In November I was asked to shoot a hockey game. Since I've never shot one before I informed the coach this session would be a test shoot before we agreed to shoot more games later in the season. Walking into the place I knew right off the lighting would be horrible and difficult to shoot. One thing that was cool is the coaches let me shoot from the bench.

For the past couple of days I've been looking through the Sports section and sifting through hockey posts. I've seen some amazing youth hockey photography. I'm just wondering how you guys get you photos to look so bright? Photograph the action with crisp, clean images? And more importantly....low to no digital noise?

First thing I noticed when I got home was the WB is all over the place. I'm guessing because the indoor lights cycle. Second, the noise is horrible even at ISO1600...3200 was worse.

I've used Noiseware in post processing on my images but that doesn't seem to help. When I boost the exposure in Lightroom 2.2 or bring up the fill light or brightness, the noise seems to magnify. Also, my photos seem to have a dingy yellow look. Lightroom is reading the tempature as 4000K. Because the lighting was bad the exposure was jumping all over the place. On some photos I would boost exposure +.10 - +1.50.

I'm looking for help, tips, advice, tricks, secrets, or anything to help me improve.

Below are some photos from the game and my info.

Specs and EXIF:
I used a Canon Mark II N and a Canon 70-200L IS.
ISO 1600
Apeture f/2.8
Shutrer Speeds: 1/250-1/400
Aperture Priority
AI Servo
Evaluative metering
Auto White Balance


http://www.gametimephotos.com/upload/11-15-08/album1/images/GTP_0081_2.jpg

http://www.gametimephotos.com/upload/11-15-08/album1/images/GTP_0080_2.jpg

http://www.gametimephotos.com/upload/11-15-08/album1/images/GTP_0078_2.jpg

http://www.gametimephotos.com/upload/11-15-08/album1/images/GTP_0076_2.jpg

http://www.gametimephotos.com/upload/11-15-08/album1/images/GTP_0073_3.jpg

[Joe Cyr]

These actually are not bad at all for a first attempt. Most of the images you are seeing are probably shot by photographers with strobes. It makes a world of difference. Without the strobes, and without a camera that handles high ISO noise fairly well, your next step would be to try on-camera flash (if allowed). Then you will be getting ghosting, of course, but its better than unusable images.

These images came out quite well. Shoot in manual, preferably in RAW so that you can tweak the white balance later. Use a fast lens (70-200 2.8 is a must).

Another thing you can try for different angles is shooting through the glass. Find a spot behind the net that is reasonably clear, use an 85 1.8 or 50 1.8 lens and fire away for the shots of a player shooting at the goalie.

Good job...

[kenzzie]

IMHO, these shots are not too bad.

Metering for hockey is difficult (dark jerseys, light jerseys and white ice)

I would suggest that your present equipment should be more than adequate.

Take WB off the ice, although auto has performed well for me, with this body, in the past.

AI servo works best for me, center point for AF.

70-200 is a great hockey lens, but leave IS off.

Take a few practice shots in warm up to get a feel for F-stop & shutter speed, then shoot Manual.

Your shots seem crisp, but with the exception of #2, they are under exposed. I use to routinely push the exposure one full stop when shooting with this camera (one of the reasons I bought the mkIII !!!). Try pushing the exposure more, almost to the point of blowing out the ice.

With all this post processing, I find RAW files give the best image quality.

Hope this helps,

Ken (http://photobug-guelph.smugmug.com/Sports/593332 for examples)

Ken

[kenzzie]

Addendum

I originally viewed these images on my monitor at work and they seemed underexposed, but viewing them at home, with a better monitor, I take that back. Can't view any EXIF data. Were theses images cropped excessively?

My other suggestions stand.

Ken :D
http://photobug-guelph.smugmug.com/photos/436828432_SMMC6-M.jpg

[Aaagogo]

i thought the 1dMKIIn handles noise pretty well...

the importance of getting a "proper" exposure increases as ISO speed increases. rather than pushing in post, bump ISO up to 3200.

like indoor basketball, with the cycling issues and AV, might I suggest going into M, bump iso to 3200 and see if you can get a decent exposure for 1/500 SS.

since they're little kids, you might have to sit or kneel on the floor

hope this little bit helps, my ice hockey rink has such bad light that I brought in strobes.

[kenzzie]

I going to guess sonny_c is shooting in a pretty dark arena. He's already at 1600 and only getting shutter speeds of 1/250-1/400. I've found noise "acceptable" in mkIIN's, at 1600, even with a full stop bump in exposure in post processing. IMHO this camera is way too noisy at 3200.

Suggestions...
Shoot RAW - better file for post processing
Try to shoot above the glass or from the penalty box

Using strobes (or a flash) might be you only option short of going to a body with better high ISO performance.

Ken

[Darsk47]

WB of used ice or get a gray card and lie it on the ice and take your WB shot at 1/60sec. and corresponding aperture so you can be sure to not catch a light cycle.

If you don't have a gray card, another member on here (forget who-sorry) suggested a coffee filter - pretty portable.

Stay low, right on top of the boards if you can, and always try for a face, the puck or net.

[sonny_c]

Sorry for the delayed response.

Joe Cyr - Come to find out most if not all of the leagues in my area will not allow flash or strobe photography. I'm guessing it's for the players safety...not quite sure.

I am shooting in RAW but not in Manual Mode. If you shoot manual, how do you keep your exposure from being under exposed or over exposed when the lighting changes on certain parts of the ice? This was obvious the first time I looked at the ice. I could see dark and bright spots.

For whatever reason, shooting through the glass didn't even cross my mind.:) Thanks for the idea.




kenzzie - First of all, I looked at your smugmug hockey galleries and WOW! Your stuff is awesome!! I've been on the fence about buying the mkIII. Up until now I've decided against it because the majority of the time we shoot outdoor sports. But we're getting more and more requests for indoor stuff. Now hockey is a new opportunity. From what the coaches and parents have told me, no one shoots action photography in the entire league. This could be a huge for us.

I'll ask you the same questions I asked Joe Cyr. If you shoot manual, how do you keep your exposure from being under exposed or over exposed when the lighting changes on certain parts of the ice?

On my first couple of test shots I noticed the LCD was showing signs of clipping on the ice. So I then adjusted my exposure -2/3 of a stop down. I was afraid of blowing out the ice a losing detail.

I was shooting from the bench close to center ice. Unfortunately, most of the action was happening on the opposite side of the ice. The majority of the photos were crop moderately to significantly.

Why do you suggest I turn of IS on my 70-200L IS lense?

From your last post, kenssie...YES! This place was dark!!:(




Aaagogo - I also thought the MK II N handled noise better. It could be due to use error. ;) ISO 1600 isn't too bad with some post process noise reduction software. I had a series of photos printed and anything bigger than a 5x7 was horrible in my opinion. I did the same with photos shot at ISO3200. Um, not so pretty at any size.:(




Darsk47 - That is a great tip! I do have a WhiBal card. But I would of never thought to lay on the ice. Plus reduce my SS to 1/60.


Out of curiosity, what type of strobes do you all use? And how would you set them up for a hockey shoot?



I really appreciate you guys for taking time to help me out. I cannot thank you enough.

[kenzzie]

I'll ask you the same questions I asked Joe Cyr. If you shoot manual, how do you keep your exposure from being under exposed or over exposed when the lighting changes on certain parts of the ice?

With Manual, you will be overexposed on some, underexposed on others, but generally pretty close. Manual avoids the camera underexposing when whites (ice) predominate and lets you retain control of your shutter speed.


On my first couple of test shots I noticed the LCD was showing signs of clipping on the ice. So I then adjusted my exposure -2/3 of a stop down. I was afraid of blowing out the ice a losing detail.

I wouldn't worry too much about ice detail, most people expect it to be white. I think you'll have to border on blowing out the ice to get player detail (facial detail if possible. If you're not shooting manual, use spot metering. I expect you'll be adjusting your exposure +1/3 to 2/3 depending on conditions and jersey colours.


I was shooting from the bench close to center ice. Unfortunately, most of the action was happening on the opposite side of the ice. The majority of the photos were crop moderately to significantly.

8.2Mp files that are noisy to begin with deteriorate quickly when cropped. No easy work around. Could try selective shooting when players are in the netral zone.


Why do you suggest I turn of IS on my 70-200L IS lense?


Don't have IS on my lens. Most feel it is not benefical for hockey and slows down focus.


From your last post, kenssie...YES! This place was dark!!:(


Consider a mkIII. AF issue is probably overblown. Proper camera set up is crucial (custom functions). If possible, try before you buy.

Ken:)

[Aaagogo]

sonny_c, I've shot with ISO 3200 on my 30D's and the lesson I've learnt is that everything has to be as close to the "perfect" shot as possible when you hit the shutter.

as ISO increases, the tolerance of that image that can be pushed in PP is affected exponentially. I won't say it's a user error, just that is a learning experience.

I'll go search some of my ISO 3200 image from my 30D, while alot of people will complain about noise at high ISO, it really isn't that bad when you nail all the basics of framing and exposure right off the bat when you hit the shutter.

[cstewart]

Here are my starting points for hockey (with 40D and 70-200 f2.8L IS). These are adjusted accordingly as light allows. Generally you want to overexpose by +1 stop to account for all the white:

Manual Mode, RAW
IS OFF - IS does not do anything for you when you need a fast shutter speed anyway
1600 or 3200 ISO depending on light
f2.8 or f.3.5 depending on light
Shutter of 1/400 at a minimum...no lower
Auto Focus is AI Servo and Center Point. I also use the * button on camera back to initiate focus control
Either use a custom WB or I find Auto WB works well many times.
High speed mode 6.5fps

I will then post process many of the images to bump lighting as needed, sharpen and apply NR. Get to know how to PP in programs like Lightroom or Photoshop and you can get some great keeper images despite the low lighting.

Some examples of my recent hockey images can be found at: www.cjscons.com/smha/atom

[TTurrill]

Sonny,

Here are the parameters that I use in Joe Louis Arena. I know that I will have people say, geeze that is a pro arena. But I also use those setting in other local arenas when shooting youth hockey. Those are from the MKIII, but I use the same when using my MKIIN. Try custom white balance off the ice. Try manual and after several trys you will be getting the results you desire. The picture below was shot ambient and not on strobes. The 2nd shot was in a local arena with decent light...

Good luck and remember to have fun!!!

Tom


Shutter speed: 1/800 sec
Aperture: 2.8
Exposure mode: Manual
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Evaluative
Drive mode: Continuous
ISO: 2000
Lens: EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM
Focal length: 80mm
Subject distance: 10.2 m
AF mode: AI Servo AF
Image size: 3888 x 2592
Rotation: none
Image quality: Fine
White balance: Auto
Picture style: Standard
Color space: sRGB
Saturation: Normal
Sharpness: 4
Contrast: Normal
Tone: Normal
Custom Functions:
CFn I-3: ISO range enabled
CFn I-10: Registered usable metering modes enabled
CFn III-2: AI Servo tracking sensitivity: slow (-1)

[tinpusher]

About all I can add is that not all arenas are created equal. There are some arenas so dark I don't even bother. With your reported settings of 1/250, 2.8 and 1600 I would say that you were shooting in a cave and your results were pretty good considering the lighting. Assuming your team plays in different rinks take note of the brightest ones and plan your shoot on those days.

[Joe Cyr]

sonny... basically what Kenzzie said in regards to manual. I simply try to keep myself to one certain area for shooting (blue line to the goal). The light is pretty consistent in that area (for me). I have used strobes in the ceiling, pointing downwards, that worked great. I have also used on-camera flash and never been told I could not. It's no different than a parent sitting in the stands firing away with their point and shoots. Those flashes go off, so I can't see how they can tell you you can't use it too. Of course, I have a mini-scafold that allows me to stand up over the glass, but still no player has ever said the flash bothered them. I prefer the strobes of course, but on-camera can still give you good shots.