Inexperienced with 580EX Flash! Any suggestions?

[cargo123]

I have a new Canon 20D with the 580EX flash. Yesterday, a photographer let me spend the day with him at a wedding. I have never been so disappointed with the pictures I took. Some of them were way too bright, and some were very underexposed. There were only a few that I felt were good lighting. I am surprised by the number of Red Eye Shots. The groom had light blue eyes, and many of his shots had the red eye. The ring boy and flower girl also had blue eyes, and they also had red eye. Can I get some recommendations where to read more about using the 580EX besides the manual. What can I do to fix the red eye while using this flash?

[pcasciola]

This is a good place to start. Lot's of good flash info here:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46599

[scottbergerphoto]

Red Eye is the reflection of flash off the subject's retina. It happens when the angle between the flash and the retina is too small, as when the flash is mounted on the hot shoe. You need to get the flash off the camera on a bracket using the Canon Off The Shoe Cord 2.
There's lots more in the EOS Flash Sticky. The previous poster was kind enough to give you the link.
Scott

[eljustino]

Red eye? You have to bounce the flash, end of story.

Bad exposure? It took me a while to get the hang of how ETTL behaves. It's certainly unpredictable, but the thing to remember is that it aims to correctly expose whatever is under the selected AF point! So if you have the AF point on a dark suit (or a black person), you will get overexposure. If you have the AF point on a white shirt (or a white person) you will get underexposure. The trick is to make sure the AF point is on something of medium colour.

Yes, this is insane, but I find the above rule helps!

Otherwise forget ETTL and use a Metz in Auto mode (ie using its own sensor) or any other conventional manual/auto flashgun. I put up with ETTL for various reasons, but it's basically pretty crap but at least if you understand what it's trying to do you are more likely to get good results!

[scottbergerphoto]

Red eye? You have to bounce the flash, end of story.

Bad exposure? It took me a while to get the hang of how ETTL behaves. It's certainly unpredictable, but the thing to remember is that it aims to correctly expose whatever is under the selected AF point! So if you have the AF point on a dark suit (or a black person), you will get overexposure. If you have the AF point on a white shirt (or a white person) you will get underexposure. The trick is to make sure the AF point is on something of medium colour.

Yes, this is insane, but I find the above rule helps!

Otherwise forget ETTL and use a Metz in Auto mode (ie using its own sensor) or any other conventional manual/auto flashgun. I put up with ETTL for various reasons, but it's basically pretty crap but at least if you understand what it's trying to do you are more likely to get good results!
This post has some significant errors.
1. You don't need to bounce flash to eliminate Red Eye. You need to increase the angle of the flash to the eye - lens axis. If you needed to bounce flash to eliminate red eye, then Glamour Studio Lighting would be creating lots of Red Eye, and it doesn't because the light comes from above.
2. The 20D uses ETTL II. ETTLII does not use the active AF Points to determine flash output as ETTL does. It determines where the subject is by measuring the reflected pre flash via 17 sensors, throws out the high and low readings, and calculates output.
There is alot of misinformation out there. I suggest you read the EOS Flash Sticky.
Scott

[tim]

ETTL II on the 20D seems to work a bit better than ETTL on the 300D. I took around 150 flash shots on Friday, and while there's a little glare, in general i'm very happy with how they came out.

[cargo123]

This post has some significant errors.
1. You don't need to bounce flash to eliminate Red Eye. You need to increase the angle of the flash to the eye - lens axis. If you needed to bounce flash to eliminate red eye, then Glamour Studio Lighting would be creating lots of Red Eye, and it doesn't because the light comes from above.
How do I measure angle with the eye? For example, one picture I took the groom and bride are facing eachother. My flash is directed at their profile, and the groom came out with red eye. When you say angle, should I be positioning myself in a different spot?

2. The 20D uses ETTL II. ETTLII does not use the active AF Points to determine flash output as ETTL does. It determines where the subject is by measuring the reflected pre flash via 17 sensors, throws out the high and low readings, and calculates output.
There is alot of misinformation out there. I suggest you read the EOS Flash Sticky.
Scott[/QUOTE]
I have been reading about the preflash in this forum and the manuel. Does this preflash mean the red sensor hits the subject? I don't get an actual light flash, so I am thinking maybe it is broke. Thanks for the advice. Mike G

[scottbergerphoto]

1. Imagine a line between the subject's eye and the lens. You want you flash to be as high above that line as possible with a bracket.

2. The pre flash is a flash of light from the flash head, not the red plastic (focus assist lamp), that occurs right before the main flash. If you hit FEL, you will see a preflash. Usually it occurs too fast for you to see it.
Scott

[Kostyanych]

I can't see preflash as well. :) But I trust people, it should be there. :)

[scottbergerphoto]

I can't see preflash as well. :) But I trust people, it should be there. :)
Turn on the flash and press FEL. What you see is the preflash. It occurs so close to the actual flash in normal operation that you don't see it.
Scott

[HKFEVER]

I never have problem with 550 or 580 on 1DMKII or 1DsMKII. You just need to try them out. TTLII is excellent.

[Kostyanych]

Turn on the flash and press FEL. What you see is the preflash. It occurs so close to the actual flash in normal operation that you don't see it.
Scott

:)
Well, let's say "A have never seen preflash before the main flash".
I set C.Fn-4 to 1.... So It looks like I don't have any other FEL button...

But I trust you so much.... :)

By this time (I bought 580EX less then 2 monthes ago) I was disappointed with the results just twice:
1. taking pictures of friend's car at night (I believe the reflection was too strong)
2. taking picture in the office during small birthday party (I think the celling was too far for bounce flash)

So I don't blame the flash and ETTL-II. :)

[PacAce]

I can't see preflash as well. :) But I trust people, it should be there. :)
Do you see any flash at all in the viewfinder when you take a flash picture? If so, what you're seeing IS the pre-flash because you will never be able to see the main flash through the viewfinder.

[pierrot]

... 'cause when the main flash fires the mirror is up and you can't see anything through the lens.
Or you are using a remote. ;)

[markubig]

Do you see any flash at all in the viewfinder when you take a flash picture? If so, what you're seeing IS the pre-flash because you will never be able to see the main flash through the viewfinder.

... 'cause when the main flash fires the mirror is up and you can't see anything through the lens.
Or you are using a remote. ;)

Wow . . . i never knew that . . . thanks!

[markubig]

Does ETTL or ETTLII consider take into account if the flash is in bounce position and adjust output accordingly?

i haven't been able to find that in the flash sticky

[Tom Barnett]

I've bounced flash with ETTL2 and it seems to OK.

[RichardtheSane]

Does ETTL or ETTLII consider take into account if the flash is in bounce position and adjust output accordingly?

i haven't been able to find that in the flash sticky

Yes

It does this because the preflash is used to meter the scene.

The preflash is always exactly the same output and then the system uses the preflash to measure the correct flash exposure. When bounced the preflash will also (obviously) bounce and the the system will meter and set the exposure based on bounced preflash, and in most cases get it spot on :)

[Kostyanych]

Do you see any flash at all in the viewfinder when you take a flash picture? If so, what you're seeing IS the pre-flash because you will never be able to see the main flash through the viewfinder.

Yes, yes, I can see it.... :)

But what is the duration of the normal flash? May be I can see just "a tail" of main flash? :)

But I trust you too. :)

[robertwgross]

But what is the duration of the normal flash? May be I can see just "a tail" of main flash?

The duration of the main flash pop is around 1/10,000th of a second. It is probably over and done before the mirror comes down. The preflash pop is before that. So, you are not seeing the tail of the main flash pop at all. You might be seeing the preflash pop.

---Bob Gross---

[Kostyanych]

The duration of the main flash pop is around 1/10,000th of a second. It is probably over and done before the mirror comes down. The preflash pop is before that. So, you are not seeing the tail of the main flash pop at all. You might be seeing the preflash pop.

---Bob Gross---

Well, it means there is a preflash. :)

[Longwatcher]

I am pretty sure the 580EX flash has a diffuser (I have the 550EX) and not one person suggested just putting the diffuser panel down (over the flash). I find this works better then anything else and cuts down on the harshness of the flash a lot as well as I don't remember seeing red eye with the diffuser down (could be a case of me not remembering though).

This works great to about 15-20 feet at which point you need to put the diffuser up to get enough range.

Bouncing it is better, but often the environment I am in does not make that practical (such as dark painted or very high ceilings if not outdoors)

If it doesn't have a diffuser, get one or make one.

Just my experience,