am I the only one who can't focus 20d?

[Wavy C]

Am I the only one having probs with the 20d autofocus system? Bought this camera about six weeks ago and, while I've only had limited opportunities to really test it out, I am a little disappointed with the high proportion of out-of-focus shots.

Okay, I'm the first to admit that the problem might be me.

The first few weeks I was basically just taking a lot of shots around my home, often in very low light conditions, and wasn't especially surprised to notice that more than half appeared out of focus. Now I've had a few more chances to use the camera outdoors in bright sunlight, I'm still finding it difficult to focus reliably. I started with the default settings of all the focus points enabled (in 'One Shot' mode, with focus lock on half-press of the shutter), but this quickly proved almost useless. I then switched to using just the centre focus point, which has helped but still gives far too many dud shots. Now, in the case of people, I focus this centre point on the eyes, recompose and click. Current hit rate is about one good shot in three.

I previously used a compact Olympus 5050 5mp camera, which has perhaps spoilt me a little as it has an almost uncanny ability to focus quickly and accurately practically every time. With normal care, the Olympus would maybe miss focus on one shot in thirty.

I should add that, in many cases, I can 'rescue' some of the Canon shots through heavy sharpening in ps - but such overuse only starts to introduce other problems. I am also fully aware of the benefits of having pictures a little 'soft' out of the camera - but out of focus is different! Have also tried shooting in raw mode (which doesn't appear to help), and am now wondering if I should change the parameters.

Any tips from anyone who can get this camera to focus correctly would be most welcome...


:confused:

[tim]

What lens are you using? What aperture (eg F4) are you using? The Canon with a good lens should focus much more quickly than the olympus.

Do you have a tripod you can take a test shot on? It's possible that your lens needs calibration.

[Wavy C]

Hi Tim,

I've got both the kit lens (18mm-55mm) and the 50mm 1.8. I've used both at a variety of apertures. Obviously stopped down there is more depth of field and therefore less of a focus problem. But at wide apertures, where I would expect focusing to be more critical, it seems very hit and miss on the 20d.

Oh, I didn't mean to say the Olympus focused more quickly than the Canon - just a lot more accurately. That is, nearly all pictures from the Olympus were in focus without me having to especially think about it. With the Canon, even trying hard to ensure the focus is good doesn't always work

:(

[tim]

Can you do a test on a tripod? If you don't have a tripod sit it on a solid surface and use the timer so you don't bump the camera. If you can, post a link to the full jpeg and we can take a look. If you can't post a link to the full one post a crop of the area you focused on. If you can, do it for both lenses.

[Streetshooter]

DOF and focus are two different worlds...you can have alot of DOF and still be out of focus....
question for you...did you adjust the viewfinder diopter setting to your eyes. I actually now due to age wear reading glasses but I dont when making images...so I adjust the diopter without glasses...big difference.
I also just use the center AF position and find it very accurate. I'm kinda at a loss as to why your having focusing problems..my other camera is a D-60 and the focus is terrible compared to my 20d but I use that camera as a manual focus camera only...
it may be possible that at the second of exposure you might just be releasing the shutter release and then causing a shift in the AF .....then releasing the shutter when the lens is actually out of focus.......just some thoughts......don

[RDKirk]

Before you release the shutter, do you actually look at the subject to be sure the AF system focused on what you intended it to focus on? It's very likely that it's not focusing on what you intend.

There are some things to know and some techniques for accurate focusing. The actual area viewed by the sensor is significantly larger than the markings, and the system will lock on the strongest contrast in its view--which could be outside the marking.

[Wavy C]

Tim, it would take me a little while to set up a few tripod shots and post them but maybe tomorrow I will try doing so. The problem is that such carefully controlled shots would probably be perfect! I am more talking about 'real world' photography such a portraits, where I focus the centre point on someone's eye, recompose a little, shoot - and get an out-of-focus shot :(

Streetshooter, I wear glasses too so haven't tried adjusting the diopter setting. Interesting to learn that you too use just a single focus point (and that it works for you). I guess it is possible that there is something about my technique that is wrong. I'm hoping to find what... as I don't really feel that confident using this camera until I think I can consistently get 90 per cent of shots in focus.

regards and tnx for your comments

[tim]

If tripod shots come out ok then it's probably your technique. Try not recomposing, especially if you're using a narrow DOF or the subject is close to the camera. Alternately use a different focus point.

Focus/recompose by the very way it works takes the area you're interested in out of focus, though usually the difference is minor enough that it doesn't matter.

[Wavy C]

RD Kirk, thx for pointing out that the focus area is larger than the marking - that could explain the problem in some cases. And, yes, as I have become more aware of this problem I (nearly) always am checking that the focus has locked before fully pressing the shutter.

[MDJAK]

Wavy, I too had similar problems with my 20D. I know how to use it, how to use the red focusing rectangles/squares, and I had a lot of out of focus shots.


I shoot a lot of high school wrestling matches. I normally use my 70-200 F2.8 IS.

From 20 or so feet away, when one of our guys would win a match and they would go to the center of the mat for the hand raising, I'd focus on it only to have it lose focus more than half the time. It would just hunt for no apparent reason. I took to focusing and quickly reaching to the lens to place it in manual mode so the focus wouldn't change. This was sometimes successful, sometimes not.

That is one of the things that soured me on the 20D. I expected it to be much better. Granted, the lighting was not great, but it was not that bad.

My new 1Ds MII, on the other hand, is much, much better and snaps to focus every time.

[Wavy C]

Tim, the focus/recompose method, and using a single af point, is the only way that works reasonably well for me. The default use of all af points, and letting the camera pick itself, was a disaster - I was lucky to get one shot in five that worked.

[Wavy C]

MDJAK - that sounds familiar to me :(

Unfortunately I'd have to wait a little while until my boat comes in before I could start thinking about switching to another camera :)

[tim]

I don't have much trouble with focus recompose, it's worth a try not doing it though. I get some out of focus shots, but it's almost always because i've been lazy with my technique.

[Geeeyejo]

Very surprised to hear this - I am using the 50mm 1.8 & an old 28-70 ll on my 10D and have found focusing to be fast and accurate - especially indoors. I have found that the focus "strobe" from the the flash helps. Is this a known issue on the 20D versus the 10D?

[tim]

Nope, the 20D is meant to have better focusing than the 10D. I find the strobe from the internal flash too distracting, the IR focus assist light from an external flash is much better, you turn the flash off using a custom function and that still emits.

[tubs]

Just in case this adds anything to the mix - I've had no trouble focussing my 20D with the Canon 17-85 lens, but with the 50mm/1.8 I have been very disappointed at how soft the images are when shooting at the wider apertures. At first I thought I just couldn't focus properly, but after extensive testing I realise its just the best the 50mm/1.8 lens can do. I don't use it much any more.

Wavy C, can I suggest you do some testing using manual focus and see if you get any better results ? That will tell you if the problem is with the AF.

[tim]

Wavy C, can I suggest you do some testing using manual focus and see if you get any better results ? That will tell you if the problem is with the AF.

That's a good suggestion, I wonder why no-one else thought of it?!

[Geeeyejo]

Just in case this adds anything to the mix - I've had no trouble focussing my 20D with the Canon 17-85 lens, but with the 50mm/1.8 I have been very disappointed at how soft the images are when shooting at the wider apertures. At first I thought I just couldn't focus properly, but after extensive testing I realise its just the best the 50mm/1.8 lens can do. I don't use it much any more.

Wavy C, can I suggest you do some testing using manual focus and see if you get any better results ? That will tell you if the problem is with the AF.

The 50mm 1.8 can certainly focus well and sharp at wider apertures! Thing to realize is that at F1.8 the depth of field is about 4" If you and/or the subject move and/or if parts of the subject are set back or forward- then the focus will appear off at points.
The reward is that the bokeh on the lens is exceptional. Here is an example shot at F1.8 Note how the red beans in the middle are well focused versus the items in front of/behind them. Each box of food is only 4" square

[jimlp]

I had the same problem you had, one in 4 or 5 shots was in focus, all my lenses were affected. I sent the body to Canon and when it came back (in 1 week I may add) everything was fine, sharp photos with all my lenses. You shouldn't need a tripod for a usable test just get outside and get a high shutterspeed ( 1/1000 or so) and focus on something and take a bunch of photos, either the focus will be correct or it won't. With the focal lengths of your lenses combined with a fast shutter speed unless you fall over while taking the photos they will tell you what is going on.

[Wildman]

Wavy...

I bought my 20D with an EF-S 17-85IS back in November. I wasn't happy with most of my pictures. This is my first DSLR. I got an EF-50 1.8 and my morale (and pictures) improved some.

Then the sun came out. The Pacific Northwest isn't very sunny in the winter. The combination of more sun and eleven hundred exposures worth of experience have made an enormous difference. I'm beginning to understand this camera and the results are coming along. I've been accused of being a pretty good photographer, but this camera has been a humbling (and learning) experience for an old guy with a lot of P&S time. Light is your friend.

I also had a problem with my Canon i9100 printer. I replaced the magenta cartridge with a photo magenta one. The output really lost the old "pop" I used to get. Once fxed, I'm back on track. Just mentioned the printer thing to point out the number of variables you have to deal with in this photography hobby.

Keep working at it... most of the gripes about this camera are probably due to the loose nut pressing the shutter.

[pcasciola]

A co-worker of mine had to have their autofocus sensor replaced on a digital rebel, but those stories are few and far between. A haven't really heard of many focus problems on the 20D yet. All the reviews consistently say this is one of the major improvements to the 10D.

I'd try the ruler test if I were you. Set it up at about a 30 degree angle to the lens, open the aperture all the way up and focus at a specific spot on the ruler. Take a few shots, focusing away and back each time. Then stop it down a stop or two at a time, and repeat the test.

Here's a few I did with the 85/1.8 on the 20D from about 4 feet away, focusing away and the back to the 1 foot mark each time. I took about 15-20 shots in all, and it didn't hunt once.

85mm f/1.8
http://www.casciola.com/pics/ruler_85_f18.jpg

85mm f/5.6
http://www.casciola.com/pics/ruler_85_f56.jpg

85mm f/8
http://www.casciola.com/pics/ruler_85_f8.jpg

[CyberDyneSystems]

I can say this,. I have no trouble with my 20D,. (or old 10D) but I often have trouble with the thrifty fifty.. I find it's focus motor atracioous, and it's accuracy hit or miss.

There are two ways to get good focus out of teh 50mm f/1.8 IMHO.
1. Manual focus
2. CF# 4-1 and AIservo to keep it moving untill i see it's fianlly got it.

With single shot.. there is no way.. it will 75% of the time stop focusing when in fact it is not focused.

[pierrot]

You could also have a look at Pekka's post here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10526) explaining Canon's test methodology to determine focusing accuracy.

Test charts are very easy to design and print. There even are some links around there, but I can't remember the threads. I downloaded one (the horizontal length grid) and created the second one (the vertical target) then printed and placed them as explained, then shot series of test pics with all my lenses.

Only to find that I was defective, not my body (err.. in other words: my own body was bad - short-eyed guy with a shaky hand - and Canon's EOS 20d body - and lenses - were performing fine). :mrgreen:

[Bsmooth]

Ok How do you switch to just focus using the center point? Yes I've only had my 20D for a few days using the 18-55 and 70-200F4 with a 1.4Ext. But I've also noticed very soft focusing using Jpeg Parameter 2(default). I tried using unsharp mask but the pics look very soft.I was using below 1/500 shutter speeds and it was pretty cloudy too.Still getting to know the camera.But focusing on birds outside my window on branches 40 to 50 ft away was sometimes a problem,with autofocus searching.Hopefully after I'm told how to switch to center focus,it will solve this. Thanks

[Wavy C]

Tnx guys - lot of interesting ideas there:

Especially

- I need to try that focus test with a ruler that pcasciola suggested.

- CyberDaneSystems said (about 50mm lens) "it will 75% of the time stop focusing when in fact it is not focused" - this is another possiblity I need to look at. (This is the lens I have been using most)

- RD Kirk pointed out that the focus area is larger than the marking - that could explain the problem if the camera is picking some point other than what I imagine.


Of course, things would be simpler if every shot was out of focus - they're not. Some are fine. With my Olympus, however, I could be 95 sure my shot would be in focus. The Canon, I think, misses far too many and that makes me a little uncomfortable when using it (all the advantages of extra megapixels and larger sensor are lost if the pic is out of focus).



BSmooth - half-press the shutter, press the focus select button with your thumb (all focus points should light up in the viewfinder), and then press the 8-way selector stright down. Now only the centre focus point will be active when you half-press the shutter.

.

[mr.photoguy]

After reading this post, I fully understand what you are going through.

My comment, from experience.
When shooting with the 50mm 1.8 , you have to watch this lens carefully. There will be instances where you just want to point, shoot, and walk away. You can do this, but you take the chance of the image not being in focus.
Anyhow, this is what I usually do. I usually Compose my shot, then I use the joystick to pick my area of focus. Then I take the photo. After this I use the review screen, and the zoom to check the person's focus. I check their eyelashes to see if they are sharp, or which ever relative place. I tend to do this with EVERY shot. It's a HABIT. More that 90% of my images, no matter what lens are in focus because of this method. I have to admit that there are times that I point, and shoot, and the images do come out sharp.

One example of a foul up...

I was out to dinner with one of my girls, and I was snapping some images of her.. I was using the 50mm 1.8 at about F2 or so.. somewhere in that area, with iso 1600.. I put the center dot right on her eye because that's where I wanted to be sharp. I didn't review the images right after shooting (mess up right there), and when I got home the images where so dissapointing. Her collar was sharp, and her eye was fuzzy on some.
Her cuffs would be sharp, and her eyebrows would be out of focus.. It was just devasting as the compuse was really nice.

Anyhow ... remember to review your images, and also remember to use manual focus if you have to. I will sometimes use AF to get me in the vicinity, and then MF to get the focus where I want it to be.

It can be hit or miss, but when you review your images, you will have way more hits, than misses.

This is the difference between the prosumers, and the more advanced DSLR's.
Your technique will be so different.

[sjprg]

A lot of the time motion blur (camera shake) is mistaken for OOF. If you really think that you have OOF the quick way to test is to use a tripod and mirror lockup. Use a slow shutter speed to test. I find that animals and birds more so have a lot of motion that is almost unnoticible. You also need to learn to shoot a dlsr almost like a pistol. Take a breath, let it out half way and squeese the trigger slowly.

[Jon, The Elder]

Sprig has it right. I shoot horses and they DO move when perfectly still. neck shivers can and do throw off focus.

I use AV/AIservo/center point and still blow one once in a while.
The 28/135IS ain't the best but does pretty well in most cases. However at 5.6/ISO1600 yer gonna get some funny ones. Horse arenas are even worse than gymnasiums in this aspect. Plus you have a lot of fine dust in the air giving you that lovely 'fog' effect. Thank God for PS.

[yenoram]

Use Custom Function 4 to shift focus to the * button thereby separating focus from metering and the shutter button - this takes some getting used to but you'll find it will make a big difference. MDJAK, I think you'll find this a better solution to your problem than fumbling to switch your lens to manual focus.

[Streetshooter]

There's one thing I really hate about digital imaging...Hyperfocal distance is tough if not impossible with some lenses....I came this way from over 38 years with Leica's and I hardly ever focused my 35mm.....but with this 20d, I find that focusing is a pleasure either manual or AF. I don't understand your statement about being happy with 90% focused images. Man, get that out of your mind immediately...you should get every image focused...stop thinking about the next images and focus (no pun intended) on the one your making now. Then when you get that one right, the next one will follow and so on etc. I'd almost bet that your releasing your finger at the precise moment of exposure..and that's causing a focus shift....The release finger is the true organ of photography.....pay attention to it.....I'm sure that's where your problem lies....don

[rufis6]

My 10D wouldn't focus consistently so I upgraded to the 20D and experienced the same promblem. I dumped them both on Ebay and bought a Leica R8 and have had no problems since then. I love the film again because I've had it with all the tweaking and USM and high-pass sharpening. I'll go back to digital when they work the bugs out - assuming they do.

[DamienB]

Wavy C - what you need to understand is that those with perfectly-functioning 20Ds refuse to believe duff ones exist, and will immediately jump on you for poor testing methods - "use a tripod! use 1/4000! use this particular lens!" - which is of course a complete nonsense because if you can't just use the camera for its intended purpose of taking in-focus photos, it is more likely to be faulty than anything else - there are certainly no shortage of 20D owners experiencing the same problems. They are no doubt the minority of owners, but there are enough to convince some of us to avoid buying one!

I've played with two seperate 20D bodies now, one couldn't AF on distant subjects with a 100-400 L (though it seemed okay once within a few hundred feet), the other was totally and I mean totally unuseable with any lens with a 2.8 aperture or faster - every shot was focused behind the subject. I've had several discussions with frustrated 20D owners experiencing similar problems, and the 50mm lenses seem to be a particular problem... yet they work fine on other bodies such as the D60 or 1DMk2.

I had AF problems with a succession of 10D bodies, and gave up on the model entirely, instead acquiring a second D60 - which never exhibited any problems other than the inherent slowness of that body, and hunting in low light.

A chap with an extreme experience of these problems has a web site here:
http://www.canon-dslr.com/Canon_Jan05/Canon_SLR_Focus_Test.htm
...which illustrates the AF errors of the duff bodies nicely.

Don't accept it - and don't let people on internet forums convince you to soldier on with a camera you believe to be faulty. Get it exchanged, or get it repaired. You'll never be happy otherwise!

[wintoid]

Damien, that's very interesting. I had not heard about problems with 50mm lenses on the 20d, but I ditched my own 50mm f/1.4 due to extreme disappointment with low light focusing ability on the 20d. Do you have a link to somewhere I can read more about this please?

[HKFEVER]

Damien, that's very interesting. I had not heard about problems with 50mm lenses on the 20d, but I ditched my own 50mm f/1.4 due to extreme disappointment with low light focusing ability on the 20d. Do you have a link to somewhere I can read more about this please?

Either your 20D or 50mm 1.4 have problem. Cause my 50mm f1.4 does pretty good jods on my cameras. The floowings were taken with ISO 1600 + my old 50mm f/1.4;) All hand held, the second one was a drive by shooting.:lol:

[robertwgross]

Ok How do you switch to just focus using the center point?

Look in your 20D manual, page 28, bottom.

---Bob Gross---

[wintoid]

Either your 20D or 50mm 1.4 have problem. Cause my 50mm f1.4 does pretty good jods on my cameras.

With all due respect, I don't think you have enough information to say that. The 50mm f1.4 worked fine on a 300d, despite hunting a lot in low light, as shown here...

http://simon.pietroni.co.uk/300d5014.jpg

My 20d also works pretty well, focusing fine with a Tamron 28-75 as shown here:

http://simon.pietroni.co.uk/20dtamron.jpg

But when I put the 50mm f/1.4 and the 20d together, I got hunting in low light, and inaccurate focus in broad daylight. That's why I am so interested in what has been said about compatibility between the 50mm lenses and the 20d.

[Wavy C]

Tnx everyone for your tremendous help and advice...

mr.photoguy wrote:

".. I put the center dot right on her eye because that's where I wanted to be sharp. I didn't review the images right after shooting (mess up right there), and when I got home the images where so dissapointing. Her collar was sharp, and her eye was fuzzy on some. Her cuffs would be sharp, and her eyebrows would be out of focus.."

This is also what I have experienced. Now I am checking practically every shot on the screen and reshooting if there is any doubt about focus.

Streetshooter wrote:

"I'd almost bet that your releasing your finger at the precise moment of exposure..and that's causing a focus shift..."

Not sure if I fully understand this. After framing the picture in the viewfinder, I put the centre focus point where I want it and half press the shutter. When the lens moves into focus, I recompose (if needed) and gently press the shutter release fully in. I am always careful to avoid any movement or shake at the momement of release.


Some of you have been kind enough to post examples of sharp pictures taken with the 20d and 50mm lens. I really don't need convincing about this - I'd say one quarter of my pictures also come out sharp, about half will sharpen up in ps, and the remaining quarter are just badly out of focus. As I've already said, this may be a problem with my technique. For me it is, however, a disappointing aspect of an otherwise very nice camera.

Some examples of my pictures can be seen in these threads:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61743

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61812

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61870

All these shots were taken about two weeks ago with my 20d, most with the 50mm f1.8 lens.

...but remember, these are the ones that worked (and even then some requried a considerable amount of sharpening in ps). For each photo that worked I have two other pictures that didn't because they were out of focus.....

[tim]

I have no problems with my 50mm lens on my 20D in low light. It seeks sometimes but in general it's good.

[robertwgross]

Phil, that is a good tape measure that you used for the "ruler test". It has a lot of contrast, so your results tend to be clear. For some cameras, that is more of an issue than for others.

---Bob Gross---

[pcasciola]

Phil, that is a good tape measure that you used for the "ruler test". It has a lot of contrast, so your results tend to be clear. For some cameras, that is more of an issue than for others.

---Bob Gross---Agreed, but when trying to diagnose a problem, I find it best to start with something that definitely should work, and work your way down from there. The original poster is claiming to have problems with his 20D even in bright sunlight, so testing on a high contrast subject like the tape measure I used is probably a good starting point, similar to the contrast in the test charts that Pekka showed in his 10D focus test thread:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10526

Thanks for pointing that out though. It might not be clear to everyone that my test is pretty much a best case scenario for autofocus tests.

[mr.photoguy]

Tnx everyone for your tremendous help and advice...

mr.photoguy wrote:

".. I put the center dot right on her eye because that's where I wanted to be sharp. I didn't review the images right after shooting (mess up right there), and when I got home the images where so dissapointing. Her collar was sharp, and her eye was fuzzy on some. Her cuffs would be sharp, and her eyebrows would be out of focus.."

This is also what I have experienced. Now I am checking practically every shot on the screen and reshooting if there is any doubt about focus.

Streetshooter wrote:

"I'd almost bet that your releasing your finger at the precise moment of exposure..and that's causing a focus shift..."

Not sure if I fully understand this. After framing the picture in the viewfinder, I put the centre focus point where I want it and half press the shutter. When the lens moves into focus, I recompose (if needed) and gently press the shutter release fully in. I am always careful to avoid any movement or shake at the momement of release.


Some of you have been kind enough to post examples of sharp pictures taken with the 20d and 50mm lens. I really don't need convincing about this - I'd say one quarter of my pictures also come out sharp, about half will sharpen up in ps, and the remaining quarter are just badly out of focus. As I've already said, this may be a problem with my technique. For me it is, however, a disappointing aspect of an otherwise very nice camera.

Some examples of my pictures can be seen in these threads:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61743

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61812

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61870

All these shots were taken about two weeks ago with my 20d, most with the 50mm f1.8 lens.

...but remember, these are the ones that worked (and even then some requried a considerable amount of sharpening in ps). For each photo that worked I have two other pictures that didn't because they were out of focus.....

When I get home this evening, I will post a few sample images with 100% crops of her eye. I usually don't even look at the images, but she likes them, and thinks nothing is wrong with them .. I think opposite.

[robertwgross]

I don't know how many users out there can make this comparison, but I find the focus screen on a 20D a whole lot easier to use than the one on the old D60. It looks good to me.

---Bob Gross---