D60 Linear TIFF conversion dark

[imago57]

I was using Canon RAW conversion at the default settings (false colors filter) and after reading some posts on this forum I decided to try the Linear TIFF setting. The results with the default settings were pretty much what I was expecting to see, and the exposure seemed to be pretty much on the dot, with a normal histogram. After I tryed the Linear setting, however, I find myself with very, very dark images, with an histogram completely unbalanced.
Am I doing something wrong?
I will appreciate all help.
Max

[mcarvalho]

Max....

When using the linear conversion, there are some additional steps you would need to then apply in order to make this image usable.

Try going to www.fredmiranda.com and check out his linear conversion actions for use in Photoshop. These will allow you to control the saturation and sharpness quite a bit.

For me, his actions are worth the $15 (or so).

Good luck

[imago57]

Thank you for the suggestion, I was checking FM website and wondering if I should give a try to his action. I just have a small doubt in my mind, since I decided to go the harder way and use a 16 bits workflow to keep as much information available, and reduce camera and software artifacts to a minimum, I just don't know what it is that Frank Miranda does with his action, are any of the steps of the action destructive? I guess yes since working in 16 bits and therefore on the original and not on a layer...
..I just feel like I will have no control whatsoever on that aspect of the production of making a photograph. Am I making sense at all?

[macondo]

Don't kill yourself running to get the Miranda action. As much as as many claim to be salvation, you will find it may not suit your photos.

Even more, there is confirmed evidence from many photographers that there is only a limited advantage in shooting Linear vs Non Linear and you are still working on 16 bits, which is the real good thing of this all.

If you want to insist on Linear, first move around the different forums and websites suggested in the forums so you can pick a fine group of FREE ICC profiles which will let you see your Linear images with adequate constrast range. Fred Miranda action includes a Profile ( that costs 15 bucks) and many processing, like sharpening etc with the idea of doing everything the way he wants or he thinks your images should look like. Not my idea of control.

Good luck with your tests.

[gmitchel]

imago57 wrote:
Thank you for the suggestion, I was checking FM website and wondering if I should give a try to his action. I just have a small doubt in my mind, since I decided to go the harder way and use a 16 bits workflow to keep as much information available, and reduce camera and software artifacts to a minimum, I just don't know what it is that Frank Miranda does with his action, are any of the steps of the action destructive? I guess yes since working in 16 bits and therefore on the original and not on a layer...
..I just feel like I will have no control whatsoever on that aspect of the production of making a photograph. Am I making sense at all?


Fred's action leaves the image as a 12-bit tiff (Canon RAW files are 12-bit, not 16-bit). This leaves it ready for additional processing you might want to apply in 16-bit mode (anything over 8-bits is labelled 16-bit by PS).

I highly recommend Fred's LPBatch action. It makes working with Linear tiff files much easier. You select the contrast level, saturation, and sharpening you want applied to the resulting image. (None, if you prefer.) You can even convert a whole batch of linear tiff files, if you like.

The price is certainly right. $15 and it includes an ICC profile for the D60.

Cheers,

Mitch

[imago57]

Today I tested Breezebrowser "Combined" conversion, which to be completely honest seems to be working a little better than Canon "Normal" settings, just because it seems to tend to hold its horses a little on the highlits. However, after applying "Levels", "Curves" and "HS" in Photoshop to a Canon Linear conversion I came up with something I liked better than that. It's just a bummer that I can't try Fred Miranda actions before buying...since I suspect it may just be an automation of what I know how to do, just with less control. Does anyone have a few sample shots of a before and after FM action?

[Timo Autiokari]

Hello imago57,

You have plenty of options to see the linear images properly, in case you are using Photoshop v6 or later you only need to use an accurate device profile. Please download my D60 profiles from http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/calibration/xlprofiler/d60-profiles.zip extract the profiles and save them to the directory where all the rest of your profiles are (c:\windows\system\color in Win98) then open Photoshop, open the linear TIF and select Image/Mode/AttachProfile and select the Canon D60 raw v2.0.icm profile.

Quote: After I tryed the Linear setting, however, I find myself with very, very dark images, with an histogram completely unbalanced.

In the linear domain the histogram is not unbalanced, it tells you exactly how the camera captured the image data. In all the other modes, except the linear mode, the histogram is unbalanced, extremely so.

[imago57]

Timo thank you very much for your input. I did as you suggested and applied your profile to a test picture. I noticed that the overall quality of conversion is much better and I also noticed more balance in the shadow/highlits ratio. I also see some moire pattern in the deep shadows, and although I am aware that the picture was somewhat underexposed I don't see any of that in the Breezebrowser "Normal" and "Combined" conversion (even though the highlits start burning there). I made a screenshot of the 3 conversions and of a detail showing the pattern. The 1st version is BB "Combined", the 2nd is BB "Normal" and the 3rd is BB Linear with your profile applied in PS.
http://www.imagokaleidoscopes.com/rawtest/index.htm
No corrections were made.
Can you help me figure out what is going on?
Thanks

[gandini]

Now that I have a G3, I can play with these linear TIFFs. Few seem to have done so with the G2, so I am hanging around with the big boys here on the "D" boards. The linear TIFFs are unbelievably dark from the G3, and I gather I need a "profile" to view them properly in PS7.01. I will try a D-60 profile just for starters as no G3 profile exists.

Running XP where do I place the .icm file so that PS can access it?

cheers and thanks,

[Roger_Cavanagh]

gandini wrote:
Now that I have a G3, I can play with these linear TIFFs. Few seem to have done so with the G2, so I am hanging around with the big boys here on the "D" boards. The linear TIFFs are unbelievably dark from the G3, and I gather I need a "profile" to view them properly in PS7.01. I will try a D-60 profile just for starters as no G3 profile exists.

Running XP where do I place the .icm file so that PS can access it?

cheers and thanks,

Philip,

If you right-click on the profile, there should be an install option. That's the easiest way.

Regards,

[gandini]

OK, I know this is not the G3 forum, but noone there is into linear files, and you people are the xperts!

here's the image as a converted TIFF using the camera's algorithm:

http://gandini.unm.edu/images/Photo%20Other/5373%20tif16.jpg

here's the linear TIFF no profile:

http://gandini.unm.edu/images/Photo%20Other/5373%20lin16_8.jpg

and here's the linear TIFF using Timo's D-60 profile:

http://gandini.unm.edu/images/Photo%20Other/5373lin16icm.jpg

Clearly the D-60 profile is not the right one!!
Any ideas as to how I can create my own G3 profile?

thanks,

[pigasus]

gandini wrote:
Clearly the D-60 profile is not the right one!!
Any ideas as to how I can create my own G3 profile?

Philip, did you assign the D60 profile to the image or convert to it? Judging by how similar the 2 images are, I would hazard a guess that you might have converted to the profile. The profile needs to be assigned to the image. Forgive me if I'm teaching my grandmother how to suck eggs. :p

While you are experimenting with linear conversions on the G3, you might try Pekka's LinearSharpen342. Roger Cavanagh has a great action downloadable from his site based on Pekka's action. Although LS342 is intended for the D30 it might just work.

Good luck!

[Timo Autiokari]

Hello Imago,

imago57 wrote:
I also see some moire pattern in the deep shadows, and although I am aware that the picture was somewhat underexposed I don't see any of that in the Breezebrowser "Normal" and "Combined" conversion (even though the highlits start burning there). I made a screenshot of the 3 conversions and of a detail showing the pattern. The 1st version is BB "Combined", the 2nd is BB "Normal" and the 3rd is BB Linear with your profile applied in PS.
http://www.imagokaleidoscopes.com/rawtest/index.htm
No corrections were made. Can you help me figure out what is going on?


When you use the linear workflow you always need to adjust the range of the image (to scale the whitepoint) using the right input slider on RGB Channel in the Levels dialog so that the image get as bright as possible without any clipping of the image data (bring the slider to the left to the right edge of the histogram). In all the other shooting/acquire modes this scaling is done automatically by the camera firmware or by the acquire software but the RAW linear data is the unaltered captured data, just what the camera actually captured without any modifications, so you do need to do this scaling in order to have properly comparable results.

The profile was created with Canon Zoom Browser converted Linear 16-bit/c TIFF, some other conversion tools possible do it differently and could easily cause the trouble you explain.

Also there is a bug in Phooshop in how it shows the 16-bit/c mode data when the data is in linear mode, this is sometimes seen (only in small portion of the images) as a banding or noise in the dark end. If you convert the data to say AdobeRGB (I do not encourage this) then the bug does not affect. But if you just do the whitepoint scaling then it should not be visible either.

So:

1) Open the Linear 16-bit/c TIF
2) Attach the D60 RAW profile
3) Scale the whitepoint up

Is it now OK? if not:

4) Do Image/Mode/ConvertToProfile and select:
Destination space==AdobeRGB
Intent==RelativeColorimetry
Engine==Microsoft ICM
BlackpointCompensation==OFF

Does it now appear any better? If not then the moire is there in the captured data. My D60 RAW profile is rather acurate so it will show you properly what is there in the deep dark end (like it does all over the range). Many 3rd party sw as well as Canon's own conversion and JPG mode will hide the dark end (by bending the transfer curve down there) so that those area where you see the moire will appear as pure black. Pure black is no information at all and is unnatural since we do not see (with the unaided eye) a lot of pure black surfaces in the real life... so in IMO any image information even if it is a little noisy or has some moire (you can edit them away rather easily) is much better than large surfaces with no visible image information at all.

[Timo Autiokari]

Hello gandini,

Clearly the D-60 profile is not the right one!!
Any ideas as to how I can create my own G3 profile?


Sure the D60 profile is not good for G3 but from the appearance of your examples I can see that either 1) you did not Image/Mode/Attach the profile or 2) you have Photoshop version 5.x. They behave differently than v.6.0 and later that do it well.

You can create your own profile with an ICC profiler and in addition you'll need a reflective Q-60 or IT8 Color Input Chart.

There are many profilers on the market, with them you usually get a target. Only the most expensive profilers are 16-bit/c compatible and perform well with linear data.

If you buy the Kodak reflective Q60 Color Input Chart (someting about 29 ... 40 USD in the USA) then you can use my free XProfiler, please see more about it at: http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/calibration/xlprofiler/index.htm

[imago57]

Timo, thank you for your suggestions. I applyed both methods that you described to me. First of all I should get my terminology right, and describe the problem I experience as "banding" instead of "Moire".
Adjusting the white point slider in the "Levels" menu without applying the profile will not create any banding, but with pictures with a lot of contrast between dark areas and highlis it takes quite a bit of twicking with both RGB and individual color channel before it gets acceptable. (I do work on the Levels and the Curves even after using Canon profile anyway).
So about this bug in Photoshop with linear files... I followed your instructions and after assigning your profile to my file I scaled the white point up in the levels, but that only opened up the shadows are and exposed the banding even more.
I tryed the second approach as well and I then converted the image to Adobe RGB (1998) with Microsoft ICM and Relative Colormetric, no black point compensation. I can see immediately most of the Banding disappearing, except for those images with a very dark background with lots of shades of different colors (blurred out leaves behind a flower), where a l can still see some banding.
So, what's up with that...do I just have to live with that? And why do you not reccommend converting the image to Adobe RGB?
I wonder if I should just go ahead and get Fred Miranda's action and see how it works...it's not the 15 bucks, really, (expecially after dishing out $ 2100 for the camera), but the idea that I can't see what it would do before buying it. Have you tried it? Do you like it? Would you recommend it?

[Timo Autiokari]

Hello imago57,

So, what's up with that...do I just have to live with that?

Well, I do live with that. When you know the cause of it, it does not matter much.

And why do you not reccommend converting the image to Adobe RGB?

Because all editing should be done in the linear domain (gamma 1.0) to avoid Gamma Induced Errors. Almost all editing operations will add them when the editing space is non-linear (AdobeRGB is gamma 2.2 space). Please see more about the Gamma Induced Errors at my site:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_error/index.htm and
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gie/index.htm

Fred Miranda's action...

I have not tried it so I can not comment on that.

[mcarvalho]

You mentioned you wanted to try before you buy... well here is an example of an image that was converted using the Normal Saturation and Normal Sharpening options with the FM action.

There are other sharpening and saturation options available. I find this action well worth the $15 and it does make my conversions much much easier and quicker.

Other than re-sizing the images for the web, I did not touch anything else on the image.

http://www.picturethis-studio.com/converted.jpg
http://www.picturethis-studio.com/notconverted.jpg

I hope this helps.

Mark

[gandini]

Timo Autiokari wrote:
Hello gandini,

Clearly the D-60 profile is not the right one!!
Any ideas as to how I can create my own G3 profile?


Sure the D60 profile is not good for G3 but from the appearance of your examples I can see that either 1) you did not Image/Mode/Attach the profile or 2) you have Photoshop version 5.x. They behave differently than v.6.0 and later that do it well.

Timo: thanks for the reply. Oddly, while the profiled and original linear images appear identical on this forum, they appear quite different on my computer, and are different files. I applied the profile, not converted to it, so i think I followed the correct procedure. Since I don't seem to be able to post the profiled image correctly, I am stuck unable to show you what happens (everything just turns much redder).
I am using PhotoShop v7.01 so it's not the software and I did attach your profile.


You can create your own profile with an ICC profiler and in addition you'll need a reflective Q-60 or IT8 Color Input Chart.

There are many profilers on the market, with them you usually get a target. Only the most expensive profilers are 16-bit/c compatible and perform well with linear data.

If you buy the Kodak reflective Q60 Color Input Chart (someting about 29 ... 40 USD in the USA) then you can use my free XProfiler, please see more about it at: http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/calibration/xlprofiler/index.htm


Looks like I'll have to follow this route.
Thanks again!

[glenn_uk]

Gandini...

BreezeBrowser comes with Linear and Non-Linear profiles for the G2.

You might find they work (even approximately) for the G3?

Good luck

[jetli91]

Gandini,

I'm getting the same results as you. I also am trying to convert G3 RAW pic to 16-bit TIFF. I have tried attaching all kind of color profiles but it didn't seem to help. All the TIFF images came out really dark

I've tried YarcPlus but the tool crashed and the developer said that YarcPlus currently not supporting G3 RAW file.

Breeze Browser barked at trying to convert my G3 RAW file too

Jetli91

[Roger_Cavanagh]

jetli91 wrote:
Breeze Browser barked at trying to convert my G3 RAW file too

Jetli91


Chris has just released BB2.4, which includes G3 support.

Regards,

[jetli91]

Thanks Roger,

Just installed BreezeBrowser 2.4. Didn't get the previous error message with any "Conversion Method". However, get a new error message when trying to select "linear":

"Sorry, linear and combined conversion are not available in this release due to a problem with Canon's SDK"

Anyhow, normal conversion to TIFF looks good

Jetli91