b/w pictures are dull-- help [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

WilliamL

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 08:35

I like B/W pictures, but all my pictures are dull and are lacking that POP to them.. what do I need to do to get the sharp tones and 'POP' I'm looking for? It's like the harder I try the worse they look... I'm greatful for ANY HELP on this..

wm

CannedHeat

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 09:54

You didn't say what you are shooting (BW film, color digital, or what) and that helps, but if it is color digital I can guarantee that NIK SilverEfex will add pop as well as flexibility to your BW conversions. It is expensive, but is probably one of the best plugins I have ever seen, and not just among BW converters.

WilliamL

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 10:53

CannedHeat

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 13:46

I'm sorry-- it is digital.

Five the NIK a trial run.

sapearl

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 13:56

Hi William - I understand what you are saying, and encountered this the first time I did my conversions.

The key to a good b/w shot is very often a top notch color image. This will have a nice range of all the tones that can be used to create a wide range of grays, blacks and white with definitive and pleasing contrast. I always start with color first, and try to create something with a wide tonal and contrast range. These are the sorts of images that translate well.

I like B/W pictures, but all my pictures are dull and are lacking that POP to them.. what do I need to do to get the sharp tones and 'POP' I'm looking for? It's like the harder I try the worse they look... I'm greatful for ANY HELP on this..

wm

Ook

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 14:12

Hi William - I understand what you are saying, and encountered this the first time I did my conversions.

The key to a good b/w shot is very often a top notch color image. This will have a nice range of all the tones that can be used to create a wide range of grays, blacks and white with definitive and pleasing contrast. I always start with color first, and try to create something with a wide tonal and contrast range. These are the sorts of images that translate well.

Good advice. Once you've got a colour image with appropriate tonal range, you have a number of methods to convert your image to B&W using the tools that are provided in Photoshop. Take a look at this great tutorial video (http://tutorialbucket.googlepages.com/psblacknwhite.html) for a discussion of many of them.

ryant35

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 14:12

Like mentioned above Nik Silver Efex software is awesome for B&W, also I find that adding a lot of contrast and unsharpen mask to my B&W images also works well.

sapearl

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 16:23

William - this will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

I like to shoot RAW which gives me the largest possible file to play with. I can recover highlights or shadow detail much better this way. Below is the original RAW file which I underexposed. I knew the stonework could have some blown highlights and I didn't want to lose those.

=>

sapearl

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 16:25

In this second example I adjusted levels manually, created several exposure levels and adjusted them, cloned out the lamp post, and then sharpenned. Here is the full color finished result:

=>

sapearl

28th of December 2008 (Sun), 16:31

As much as I like the color version of the Guardian of Transportation, I almost always "feel" B/W when I look at these guys (there are actually 8 of them).

So taking this version with it's strong contrast and good tonal range, I now run it through Fred Miranda's Black & White Workflow Pro conversion software (a plug-in), play around with his filters a bit, and then save.

For my last step I bring up the black level a bit more, add some contrast, and I'm done. Most good black and white photos don't just happen. They need forethought, and also a fair amount of post processing, just like we used to do in the old wet darkroom days. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Hope this helps. - Stu :D

=>

WilliamL

29th of December 2008 (Mon), 06:37

Thanks everyone for the help here...
Saperal..the picture you posted is what i'm trying to get to... Thanks for the help.. I've just never shot in RAW and my CS3 skills are kinda weak.. I just got the software and prior i've been using something else with a lot LESS power.. Let the learning curve begain.. hahaha

again THANKS everyone

sapearl

29th of December 2008 (Mon), 08:26

Hi William = you're welcome. It took me a while to get the hang of it and the print you see above took me close to 40 years to make. ;) What I'm saying is it's not just the technology/software, but how you look at the world. With practice things will come to you in time. - Stu

Spacemunkie

2nd of January 2009 (Fri), 18:07

Thanks everyone for the help here...

Let the learning curve begain..

Curves indeed! I use ACR to convert my RAW files to b&w before doing adjustments in ACR using curves and by boosting the contrast.

Contrast is key.

Ook

2nd of January 2009 (Fri), 22:49

using curves and by boosting the contrast.

Interesting (maybe I haven't understood properly) - do you do a curves adjustment layer and then a brightness/contrast adjustment? Why not just boost contrast within curves?

cdifoto

2nd of January 2009 (Fri), 22:55

I usually just crank up the blacks and add an insane vignette. People think it's art.

Spacemunkie

3rd of January 2009 (Sat), 02:19

Interesting (maybe I haven't understood properly) - do you do a curves adjustment layer and then a brightness/contrast adjustment? Why not just boost contrast within curves?

I do much of my b&w processing in ACR. I tend to use curves to adjust the tonal range to my liking, then just tweak the contrast and blacks to give pics a bit more life.

caseyyee

19th of March 2009 (Thu), 03:56

This is what i would do:

1. channel mixer, hit the monochrome button
2. turn down the blue to give the sky some separation
3. bump the red and green channels to your liking
4. adjust your curves to give it some contrast

First post here at POTN!

Hopefully helpful :)

Casey

bubbawillums

27th of March 2009 (Fri), 16:41

Nice and helpful first post Casey :)

I do the same thing as you with that sort of pic, I also find that alien skin exposure plugin works amazingly well in CS3.

CanonGlass3

29th of March 2009 (Sun), 20:20

i lke to over contrast my black and white photos D:
such as
http://fc31.deviantart.com/fs43/i/2009/088/0/a/Entering_The_City_by_NeotonicDragon3.jpg

darkknight1999

18th of April 2009 (Sat), 19:06

That b/w is really nice! Thanks for the info on this everyone!

bzollinger

22nd of April 2009 (Wed), 20:23

Does anyone else use Fred Miranda's BW Workflow Pro? Does anyone know of a plug-in or action that does a better job or is less expensive (I know it's only $20...)?

I guess with the right tutorials and enough time you wouldn't need anything like this, but it sure would help the learning curve. It'd probably give me more time w/ the camera vs. sitting in front of the computer.

Thanks for any suggestions. This is a good thread on BW for newbies.

sapearl

22nd of April 2009 (Wed), 22:08

Hi Ben - yes, I've had Fred Miranda's BW Workflow Pro for almost 2 years now, having purchased it back when it was $29.95 I believe. That new lower price is really quite excellent and a very good value.

I completely agree with you about learning tutorials, but not only am I a bit lazy but my time is at a bit of a premium, so time savers are worth the money for me. There are plenty of folks here though who have the ability to create beautiful b/w in PS without plug-ins... I admire them.

My post above (# 10 ) was done using Miranda's s/w. This is another example of what his product can do:

==>

Does anyone else use Fred Miranda's BW Workflow Pro? Does anyone know of a plug-in or action that does a better job or is less expensive (I know it's only $20...)?

I guess with the right tutorials and enough time you wouldn't need anything like this, but it sure would help the learning curve. It'd probably give me more time w/ the camera vs. sitting in front of the computer.

Thanks for any suggestions. This is a good thread on BW for newbies.

bzollinger

23rd of April 2009 (Thu), 11:53

So I was reading last night about BW converting. The Fred Miranda plug-in is high on the list. However I read that CS4 has a great BW conversion tool. I'm currently using CS and want to upgrade to CS4.

My question is how does BW Workflow Pro compare to CS4's conversion tool?

thanks for any opinions,
Ben

bzollinger

23rd of April 2009 (Thu), 12:22

Another nice BW picture. Good to hear that Fred's conversion tool has been useful for so long. Are you intitled to upgrades to the plug-in? I own his velvia vision plug-in but switched to Mac so I can't use it. I still have and use his digital infrared action now and again, but really am in need of a solid BW converter.

thanks for the info,
Ben

Hi Ben - yes, I've had Fred Miranda's BW Workflow Pro for almost 2 years now, having purchased it back when it was $29.95 I believe. That new lower price is really quite excellent and a very good value.

I completely agree with you about learning tutorials, but not only am I a bit lazy but my time is at a bit of a premium, so time savers are worth the money for me. There are plenty of folks here though who have the ability to create beautiful b/w in PS without plug-ins... I admire them.

My post above (# 10 ) was done using Miranda's s/w. This is another example of what his product can do:

==>

sapearl

23rd of April 2009 (Thu), 12:58

Sorry Ben - I only have CS3 so can't tell you ;).

The thing is just about any version of PS out there will likely give you excellent b/w conversions....IF you understand how to manipulate the channels, levels, etc. to achieve the desired results. Perhaps one day I'll be experienced enought with PS to do that on my own without using plug-ins.

So I was reading last night about BW converting. The Fred Miranda plug-in is high on the list. However I read that CS4 has a great BW conversion tool. I'm currently using CS and want to upgrade to CS4.

My question is how does BW Workflow Pro compare to CS4's conversion tool?

thanks for any opinions,
Ben

fotofun

23rd of April 2009 (Thu), 18:39

BW convertion tool in CS4 is similar to Channel Mixer (Monochrome) but the range of colors is higher. btw, it appears in CS3.
With the help of Black/White dialogue box you can define brightness of color tones. If you are not sure of the tint that the tonal area, which you want to change, is referred to, you can just click on it, without even closing the Black/White box, and the right color will be chosen. You can also change the brightness of the chosen tones here. In spite of the fact that Black/White tool resembles Channel Mixer tool, its mechanism differs totally: any changes in Channel Mixer influence the whole image, while in Black/White only definite color areas are affected.

Read more: 9 Ways To Convert Your Image Into Black And White Format (http://www.shotaddict.com/tips/article_9+Ways+To+Convert+Your+Image+Into+Black+An d+White+Format.html)

bzollinger

26th of April 2009 (Sun), 16:33

BW convertion tool in CS4 is similar to Channel Mixer (Monochrome) but the range of colors is higher. btw, it appears in CS3.

Read more: 9 Ways To Convert Your Image Into Black And White Format (http://www.shotaddict.com/tips/article_9+Ways+To+Convert+Your+Image+Into+Black+An d+White+Format.html)

There are some pretty good tips in there! Thanks for the link.

drh681

1st of May 2009 (Fri), 19:29

I have been doing various conversion systems for years.
I have gone so far as to make a "shirley" to try different ways.

just a note; the "remove color" and "grayscale" are not even close to good solutions, they dont take account of "apparent" brightness values. the same brightness and saturation of all colors get converted to the same shade of gray. generating a dull looking image.

the gradient map can do some nice conversions and you can compress or extend various tones.

But, by far, the nicest system I've found yet is CS4's black and white adjustment layer.

Though I have not tried SilverFX.

a very nice and free plug-in is Optiverve Labs' "Virtual Photographer"
done in CS4:
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm211/drh681/explorational/090428_0042b2-web.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm211/drh681/Huntington%20Library%20and%20Gardens/hntngtn_080308_0009cgirweb.jpg

peter nap

1st of May 2009 (Fri), 22:06

Beautiful pictures!
I have Virtual Photographer" in C3 and love it.

Spacemunkie

3rd of May 2009 (Sun), 07:39

ryant35

4th of May 2009 (Mon), 00:48

Those are awesome! ^^^^ I love Silver Efex.

bzollinger

4th of May 2009 (Mon), 14:52

Just got hold of Nik Silver Efex. Highly recommended - really takes a lot of pain out of the process:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/3473940343_d2f8c9dfc2.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3319/3479741976_1f10f24e13_o.jpg

One from today:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3496057333_229ce6236d.jpg

These are great! I'm hoping once I get CS4 that I can pull off some BWs with a similar look to these. If not I might have to spring for Silver efex.

Nice work!

Spacemunkie

4th of May 2009 (Mon), 18:39

There's no doubt you can achieve results like this just using Photoshop and ACR. Silver Efex just makes life a little easier by allowing multiple conversions straight on to layers within the same image (retaining the original colour image on the background). It's then just a matter of layer masking back into the various conversions.

The Structure control is wonderful for bringing out texture (or knocking it back). With the amount of B&W stuff I do, it was a no-brainer and has already saved me hours of work in just the few weeks I've been using it.

It'd do some bang-up jobs on some of those great landscapes you've got in your galleries!

Karl C

13th of May 2009 (Wed), 07:10

A technique I found useful, and this comes from shooting B&W film years ago, is to think in B&W when taking your shots. Think contrasts and tone; how the colors translate into B&W. Maybe use the fundamentals of the Zone system.

It helps me.

sapearl

13th of May 2009 (Wed), 08:52

Absolutely an excellent techique Karl - great minds think alike :D.

Often when I'm viewing a scene the b/w aspect of it will pretty much jump out if it's a subject that will lend itself in that direction: strong contrasts, great tonality, interesting shapes, etc.

A technique I found useful, and this comes from shooting B&W film years ago, is to think in B&W when taking your shots. Think contrasts and tone; how the colors translate into B&W. Maybe use the fundamentals of the Zone system.

It helps me.

bzollinger

19th of May 2009 (Tue), 23:19

I'm still learning how to see in B&W. But after this thread was started, I took this photo and followed Mike Rather's steps from a podcast to create the B&W conversion. I'm very pleased, what do you guys think?

http://alaskanphotographs.com/20090503-IMG_2111-2.jpg

drh681

23rd of May 2009 (Sat), 04:07

Nice image, but something strikes me as a bit "off".
perhaps the sky? it seems too close in tone to the rock on the ridge.
also, depending on YOUR Idea, dont be afraid of middle and lighter grays.
I suspect your histogram for this had a "saddle" in it?
You might be able to pick up some detail in the tree line on the far side of the water if you give a bit more weight to the yellows.

bzollinger

23rd of May 2009 (Sat), 14:08

Thanks drh681, I'll take another pass at it and see if a few adjustments have a positive effect. I've got a lot to learn about B&W.

I'm the first to admit that any above average B&W photo of mine has been mostly chance!

zagiace

23rd of May 2009 (Sat), 14:33

This is a great thread, I also use Nik Silver Efex and I am very pleased. Admittedly I get lazy and often just use lightroom. It has been a great improvement on my workflow.
I would really like to see some of the before's on the B&W conversions.

bzollinger

23rd of May 2009 (Sat), 17:16

So here is a before and after and after. After #2 is the result of drh681's suggestion of bumping the yellows, and in order to change the tone of the sky I increased the aqua and blue.

What do you think? Is it better, worse, different? Sorry for the different sizes.

Before
http://alaskanphotographs.com/before.jpg
After #1
http://alaskanphotographs.com/20090503-IMG_2111-2.jpg
After #2
http://alaskanphotographs.com/after2.jpg

drh681

23rd of May 2009 (Sat), 17:37

nice! a more "film like" conversion.If you like a darker sky to sort of simulate a red filter on b/w film,
try darkening the blue and cyan and lightening the red.
try a plus 120 on the red, plus 100 on yellow, and minus 85 on the blue and cyan. ( you can leave green and magenta at 0 )

I know that sounds like a formula; but it leaves you room to adjust to suit your Idea.