Just got an email from the associate editor of Madison Magazine.

[aepoc]

They're doing a write-up on the St. Patrick's Day Parade that I covered in an upcoming issue and she "would like to see if we could
run an image in the magazine. Please let me know if this would be possible
and if so, whether there's a particular photo you'd like us to use."

Is this something that I can charge them for? Should I be asking what size, placement, circulation, and if it's color or b&w?

BTW, you can check them out at: www.madisonmagazine.com (http://www.madisonmagazine.com)

Thanks for the help all.

- jason

** PS **
If you're interested in viewing the shots I took for the parade, you can see my set on flickr here:
http://flickr.com/photos/aepoc/sets/72157604141344608/

[Shamir]

well.. looks like a nice magazine.. Tell them to choose the image and that they need to give you special publicity.. otherwise charge them :P

[stathunter]

well.. looks like a nice magazine.. Tell them to choose the image and that they need to give you special publicity.. otherwise charge them :P

Good idea. Typically most mags will do whatever you would like so they do not have to shell out cash.

[hooookup]

Don't give your image away for free... You'd be doing all of us who work as photojournalists a disservice. Check out this website for pricing information

http://www.editorialphoto.com/resources/estimator/estimator.asp

[MJPhotos24]

First rule as an editor - try to get it free. I get these e-mails all the time and refuse free usage all the time, though it seems she didn't ask for free but didn't mention payment either. Tell them you'd be happy to let them run an image and to please forward there usual compensation for usage, if they say they can offer credit say thanks but being a photographer it's against policy to allow usage for credit and have a base fee ready. BTW, the 1/8th page usage according to fotoquote is $279 for there print run (100,000+), but they run higher than most mags will actually pay.

[noxcuses1]

Don't give your image away for free... You'd be doing all of us who work as photojournalists a disservice.

EXACTLY!!

[aepoc]

I did not plan on giving the image away for free, no worries all. Thanks for the advice. I'll keep you updated.

[aepoc]

Received a reply from her:

Jason,

Hi. Thanks for getting back to me. I really like the photographs I saw on
your Flickr site, but I want to make sure we're on the same page and I
apologize if I wasn't completely clear on how we'd like to use one of your
images.

We put together short write-ups on events each month in our Overtones
section. One of the events we'd like to highlight for March is the parade,
and I saw on the parade's website that you were the person to contact for
images of the parade. I'm sorry if I misunderstood that. We run as many
photos as possible with our event write-ups and contact the organizations
putting on the plays, exhibitions, festivals, etc. for images. They provide
the photos to highlight their events, so we don't pay for use of the images
(unlike photos we commission for feature stories and columns). However, I
could ask our art department to include a photo credit if we were able to
use one of your images.

Please let me know what you think about this. And if you decide you'd rather
not share your photos, I completely understand. I respect that you're a
working photographer and I don't want to minimize your work in any way. If
you'd like to discuss any of this further, please don't hesitate to give me
a call.

Thanks!

I'm a bit confused why they do not pay for these photographs. I'm sure some of you have had more experience than I on this, so any help on this one would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[bildeb0rg]

Basicallly, they're trying to get you to think they're doing you a favour by promoting the event, albeit after the fact.
The real downside now is they'll probably go back to the organisers and ask why YOU won't let them have any photos?
That turns into pressure from them for you "to stop being so precious about one lousy pic that would help the parade/kiddies out next year"
At the end of the day it's your call, but if you told the organisers they could use the images for promotion, your goose is cooked.

[Redfish]

see post #5 above.....

[stathunter]

A few things are wrong here. First the OP --if you look at his post where he shares his photos --states that he did it for nothing. In my opinion nothing wrong with this--- but when you want compensation for something that you volunteered to do for nothing --it never ends well.

Secondly-- if you really want compensation for your photos -------- they you should NEVER post them on Flickr ------------ you give up your rights when you post them on Flickr or any other hosting site. Read the fine print.

[aepoc]

stat - Regardind the first part, I compeltely agree. I volunteered for the committee to take photos for them... not necessarily for any magazine, etc. The committee, prior to me shooting, understood that the photos are mine, will be mine, to do what I please with, and they will need to tell me however one or my photos is used. I figure I had my bases covered with that. Considering they are my photos, I should be able to ask for compensation from the magazine, however... I volunteered my time and services to shoot for the committee, so I am thinking about allowing the magazine to use whichever photos they like for free in order to promote the organization, as part of my volunteering.

What do you mean in regards to the second part? What rights am I giving up on flickr? I have all of my photos set to "all rights reserved"... I figured that would be the best way. I don't allow people to download my photos, with the exception of a few "view large" photos (mainly the hockey ones).

[stathunter]

stat - Regardind the first part, I compeltely agree. I volunteered for the committee to take photos for them... not necessarily for any magazine, etc. The committee, prior to me shooting, understood that the photos are mine, will be mine, to do what I please with, and they will need to tell me however one or my photos is used. I figure I had my bases covered with that. Considering they are my photos, I should be able to ask for compensation from the magazine, however... I volunteered my time and services to shoot for the committee, so I am thinking about allowing the magazine to use whichever photos they like for free in order to promote the organization, as part of my volunteering.

What do you mean in regards to the second part? What rights am I giving up on flickr? I have all of my photos set to "all rights reserved"... I figured that would be the best way. I don't allow people to download my photos, with the exception of a few "view large" photos (mainly the hockey ones).

The problem is once you set yourself up as "volunteering" you will find that many will not treat you as if you charged for your service. I do a lot of free work-- because I want to-- for specific causes. But the truth is you get a lot more courtesy if you charge for your work--- when it is free people treat you like dirt-- but when you charge -- many times you get the red carpet rolled out. This is my experience any way.

Others should chime in here but when you post your photos on free hosting sites--- you end up loosing the rights to your photos-- even if you state otherwise. It is a catch 22--- you want to show others but you end up loosing them in the end. You will find that many "news organizations" (magazines - papers etc) will use your stuff --and if caught blame it on the "intern", someone else, or didn't you get our email etc--- crap. The digital age.....

[aepoc]

I see what you mean about volunteering. I also do free work for some causes; mainly for family. That really sucks that one tends to get treated like dirt for free work, and red carpet for paid work. I did notice that when I volunteered for the parade last year, I was treated very well, and with a lot of respect. It's too bad I was unable to get paid.

That whole filckr thing sounds a bit weird. So if I post them on flickr, and I don't keep the rights, who retains the rights?

[amfoto1]

The editor of that magazine is looking for freebies.... But what she is asking might not be all that out of the ordinary.

Many organizations pay photographers to take PR photos for them, to be included along with press releases sent out to the media, that the media is free to use as they see fit and that they don't pay for. From the editor's response, I think that's what she was expecting.

One quirky thing about this is that one wouldn't normally look on Flickr for press releases and accompanying photos. Perhaps she followed a link from an 'official' parade website to your photos, or something like that?

Media are increasingly asking for amateur submissions to their publications, 'for credit', not pay. This is just one of a number of strategies media are using to get the content they need to attract readers, while spending as little as possible, which is in turn a response to the massive drop off in advertising revenues in traditional media and the slashing of department budgets as a result.

First they reduced staff photo positions, using more stringers and sending out 'reporters with cameras' who are expected to get some usable images to accompany their stories.... Then when the accountants turned the screws a little tighter, photo editors increased usage of stock photos, to reduce their use of stringers... But, the screws keep turning even tighter, so they start to troll Flickr, etc. for images from amateurs, and invite the public to send in their images for publication, hoping to get usable freebies that have local interest.

What's next? Well, at some point the accountants simply strangle any company they take over and run. So, who knows.... There have been both newspapers and magazines that didn't publish any photos at all... Just not sure how well that would fly today, in our visually-oriented, 15 second news bite society. A photo is still worth a thousand words.

[MJPhotos24]

I tried to pay for groceries with photo credits I clipped from this past year and they had me dragged out of the store...strange. Again will say, have a base price you'd be happy with and return with that saying it's against your policy to give away images for credit. They're not asking the organizers,they're asking you - that's called shooting on spec and doesn't mean you shouldn't be making money from usage. You volunteered for the organization to use internally correct? Not magazines that are making money. Call there ad department and tell them you'll put credit on your site for your ad, you'll get laughed at. It doesn't have to be much, but get something. Of the last 10 or so companies that said they can't pay I believe 8 ended up paying my minimal fee - most called it cheap! The couple that didn't, who cares.

As for flickr - they do not own your images! SOME sights online will grab your rights (did you know Wal-Mart does if you get prints done through them?) and it's VERY important to read the terms of service before posting. Flickr is now associated with Getty Images and you can find info on that here...
http://www.flickr.com/help/gettyimages/

A magazine or website can NOT use your image from flickr without permission, simple as that. However, it says in there terms Yahoo can. Best measure is to watermark everything to the point if they want it they have to contact you for a non-watermarked image. Distracting, yes, but you have to protect your images.

Yahoo! does not claim ownership of Content you submit or make available for inclusion on the Yahoo! Services. However, with respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo! Services, you grant Yahoo! the following worldwide, royalty-free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:

With respect to photos, graphics, audio or video you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo! Services other than Yahoo! Groups, the license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Yahoo! Services solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available. This license exists only for as long as you elect to continue to include such Content on the Yahoo! Services and will terminate at the time you remove or Yahoo! removes such Content from the Yahoo! Services.

[aepoc]

amfoto1 - yes, she got the link to my parade photos on flickr from the Parade's website. I don't think she was actually scouring flickr for them.

I am thinking about making a compromise, actually... or at least seeing if it would fly. I could tell them that they could use an image for free, if they look at my portfolio and perhaps send a couple of assignments my way. I have applied for a photography job with this same magazine last year and never heard back. Would that be frowned upon, or a legitimate question?

[MJPhotos24]

What do they usually cover? Things you would in your area?

[aepoc]

Things happening in the city, local events, holiday festivities, meetings, shows, concerts, art exhibitions, things like that.

[aepoc]

Asking them for work in regards to projects they're working on... is that something that I should not be asking them, or do you guys think it's fair game?

[hooookup]

amfoto1 - yes, she got the link to my parade photos on flickr from the Parade's website. I don't think she was actually scouring flickr for them.

I am thinking about making a compromise, actually... or at least seeing if it would fly. I could tell them that they could use an image for free, if they look at my portfolio and perhaps send a couple of assignments my way. I have applied for a photography job with this same magazine last year and never heard back. Would that be frowned upon, or a legitimate question?

I wouldn't do that. If you start off the relationship by giving your photos away for free they will expect it out of you everytime. By sticking to your guns and letting the editor know you are interested in giving them the photo but require some compensation for your time and effort you can start the business relationship off on the right foot. Giving images away for free really does hurt all of us who are working photojournalists in the long run....

[blackshadow]

Secondly-- if you really want compensation for your photos -------- they you should NEVER post them on Flickr ------------ you give up your rights when you post them on Flickr or any other hosting site. Read the fine print.

Not correct at all - you do not give up your rights when you host them on flickr - I have been through their fine print with a fine tooth comb. You can give up your rights if you wish but by default you don't. (That doesn't necessarily stop people disobeying flickr terms and conditions and leeching photos though - but that's another issue that is far more widespread on the internet than just flickr).

[blackshadow]

I wouldn't do that. If you start off the relationship by giving your photos away for free they will expect it out of you everytime. By sticking to your guns and letting the editor know you are interested in giving them the photo but require some compensation for your time and effort you can start the business relationship off on the right foot. Giving images away for free really does hurt all of us who are working photojournalists in the long run....

Well said.

Did the Associate Editor include a phone number on the email? If so, ring them and talk to them - explain that a photo credit is worthless. They are making money from the content of their publication, therefore they should pay for it.If they won't pay you the minimum they should offer you is an advertisement the same size as the image.

It's much harder for someone to say no when actually engaged in a discussion than to say no by email.

[noxcuses1]

Basically it's just a tactful (and sneaky) way for the magazine to get you to let them use the image for free.

[bildeb0rg]

I offered to supply a local paper with free pics for a season on the basis that I "knew nothing but would get better." At that point I would expect standard rates as I was producing the goods, thus freeing up one of their staffers.
Sure enough next season, ed calls asking for pics and gets reeeal pissy when I ask "how much?" and gives me the old "you'll never work in this town again" spiel.
I always say "Hi" to whoever he sends down to stand next to me at the game.;)

[PhotosGuy]

As for flickr - they do not own your images! SOME sights online will grab your rights (did you know Wal-Mart does if you get prints done through them?) and it's VERY important to read the terms of service before posting. Flickr is now associated with Getty Images and you can find info on that here...
http://www.flickr.com/help/gettyimages/
More: Flickr - Ownership of images (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=353178)

[jbimages]

Secondly-- if you really want compensation for your photos -------- they you should NEVER post them on Flickr ------------ you give up your rights when you post them on Flickr or any other hosting site. Read the fine print.

That statement has a much weight as a pocket full of feathers.

[DucoNihilum]

Others should chime in here but when you post your photos on free hosting sites--- you end up loosing the rights to your photos-- even if you state otherwise. It is a catch 22--- you want to show others but you end up loosing them in the end. You will find that many "news organizations" (magazines - papers etc) will use your stuff --and if caught blame it on the "intern", someone else, or didn't you get our email etc--- crap. The digital age.....

Realistically, that's not true. Unless you put your photo up under creative commons license, you don't lose the copyright to organizations besides Flickr- and Flickr only makes you "Release" the photos to them for legal reasons- you still own the photos, you're just giving Flickr permission to use the photos so they don't get sued because you uploaded photos to their site.