Help me choose imaging PC components - monitor motherboard etc

[tim]

Thanks to everyone who helped me decide up upgrade my PC, now it's time to choose components. I haven't payed much attention to components in a few years, I understand the technology but I don't know which are the best brands/products now. I need everything except a hard drive.

The input I have on motherboards so far is:

The A8N-SLI Deluxe handles both, I believe. Sata alone is faster than EIDE. In Raid 0 it is faster still. You could always put your new EIDE in a hard drive enclosure and use ir as a back-up. Much faster that writing to CD or DVD. Cheaper in the long run too.

Here's what i've decided so far:
- The CPU will be an AMD Athlon 64 3000+, maybe a little faster depending how much the rest costs.
- I'll be using my existing (brand new) 200GB seagate baracuda drive as my data drive, and i'll get an 80GB one as my boot drive. A Western Digital is too expensive for the small amount of extra performance IMHO.
- Dual channel RAM seems to be fastest, so i'll probably want to use that.
- I need an LCD monitor because of space constraints.
- Budget is NZ$3000 or maybe slightly more. Things cost a little more here, prices can be found at http://www.ascent.co.nz if you're interested.

What I need are suggestions on are:
- Brands and even models of motherboards.
- What type of memory, type and/or brand.
- Which graphics card? I rarely play games so photoshop performance is most important, but i'd like to be able to play Doom3 and the like.
- Which 17 inch LCD monitor is best for color accuracy?
- What type of case? There's so many to choose from. The PC will be in my lounge kindof out of sight, but not too large and not too loud is important, but it doesn't need to be tiny.

Any help is appreciated, links to appropriate reviews, etc :)

[Skip Souza]

The parts you have decided on so far look good to me. Are you going to build this yourself or have al local shop do it?

[Citizensmith]

Find a case that will take 120mm fans. They will help to keep the computer quite as it will be in your lounge. Also, spend the extra to get a variable speed dual fan powersupply. Again, it'll keep things quite. I personally build using microATX cases, but while nice and small they are harder to keep cool quietly as you tend to end up using 60mm fans.

If you want to play Doom3 and the like you are looking at a Nvidia FX5900, ATI radeon 9600 or better. It'll actually play on much lower cards, just not as well. If games really are a secondary consideration you may want to hunt around and see what the best video card you can find is with just passive cooling. It won't be an FX5900 but you'll still be able to find a decent card.

I buy Corsair memory, but there are plenty of good brands. Get a motherboard that handles dual channel memory and buy two identical sticks of ram. And get the fastest the motherboard will handle. Probably DDR400 (PC3200) if you go the AMD route. It'll make a big difference.

[Skip Souza]

What smith said about the case & fan noise.
I think you get more bounce per ounce out of ATI (Radeon) video cards, 9600 or better. Doom3 plays fabously on my saphire 9800 Pro.
For the 3000+ socket 754 I like the Asus K8NE-Deluxe. Has everything including 8USB. Particularly I like the Q-fan, adjusts CPU fan speed to temperature. Keeps down noise in my unit. Dual channel DDR400 quality ram makes a big difference.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Tyan Thunder Dual opteron board! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Skip Souza]

CDS you must be MADE of money! Or you should share whatever it is you are smoking LOL

[tim]

Thanks guys, i'll make sure to get a case with a 12cm fan. Anyone who knows what a good value brand is i'd be happy to get pointers - there's a list of about 100 available on the place i'm getting them from.

I'm going to have a local store build it, saves hastle if something doesn't work, they'll do it all for me.

It looks like socket 939 is better for future compatability so I think i'll go that way. The CPUs cost very slightly more so that's no problem. CDS i'm NOT getting a dual opteron unless I can convince someone else to pay for it!

Video cards - someone suggested Matrox, they're pretty expensive though. Are they going to give me any/significantly better performance really? If not what's a good value one? ie can play doom3, I don't care if it's on the highest settings, and does well at 2D?

So many questions... you guys are being really helpful though, thanks :)

[Skip Souza]

Tim, what the heck is the exchange rate for US $. I couldn't believe the prices quoted at ascent.

[CyberDyneSystems]

No Matrox card could handle Doom3 I'm afriad,. you'll have to sacrifice the famous Matrox 2D image quality of you want gaming ;)

C'mon... you know you want it,.. 4GB of RAM Per CPU? :P
http://www.tweakers.net/ext/i.dsp/1068039358.jpg

[Skip Souza]

Drooool

[tim]

The exchange rate right now is good for buying stuff from the states : NZD$1 = US$0.74, US$1 = NZ$1.35. We get ripped off a bit here, but buying from the states is a pain most of the time, and support would be a real pain if something didn't work. Ascent are near to the cheapest in the country, and have good support.

CDS, is photoshop going to be faster/better on a matrox card? I'm leaning towards a midrange mainstream card right now.

[KevC]

Don't worry too much about dual channel ddr, the memory controller is integrated on the CPU.

Don't worry too much about the video card either, photoshop is all done by CPU. Image quality is what you might want a Matrox video card for. Pick up a G450 for very cheap. However, if you want to play games, I'd get a nVidia GeForce 6200. Make sure it's 128bit. It'll overclock very far, and you'll get image quality that's not that bad. I'm using a 5900XT right now, a little worse IQ than the 6200 and it's fine for me.

As for the monitor, you might want to get a Aperature Grille CRT, but I'd just get a nice LCD to use the DVI out :)

Memory's important, get at least a gig.

Raid 0 isn't as big as a benefit as the cost or risk is. Twice as easily to fail, (if one goes, all goes). Just get a 74GB 10k RPM Raptor for your work drive, and a nice 250GB for your storage.

Good fans are Papst and Panaflos. However, if you're gonna get 120mm, you gotta make sure your case can hold them :) Unless you want to go hacking it of course....

I'd recommend Antec cases. I have a Sonata and it's nice.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Matrox and games don't mix well at all,. especially todays games,. but Yes a Matrox card will help run PS faster,. but not by much.

I agree with Kev,. RAID 0 only if you have money to burn,. and only on your OS partition...

All your data on seperate drives,. and here is where you should take advantage of your MOBO's onboard RAID ,. get a PAIR of 200GB or 250GB drives and run them mirrored, RAID-1.
It adds an extra layer of security to your weekly backups to DVD.

[Moppie]

Myself and a friend who used to build and sell PC's have had great success with gigabyte boards, most have lots of onbourd extras, and are competivitly priced here in NZ.

Where are you planing on getting the bits from?
Most wholesalers sell direct to the public, and its a good way of saving 10-15%, plus they all have excellent customer surport. They have to, as they are used to surporting comecial sized customers.
Stay away from the major retail stores though, all over priced, and unlikely yo really know what they are selling.

[tim]

KevC - The G450 costs about US$350 here - that's not cheap! I need LCD too, I have a size constraint. The 6200 is pretty cheap, it's going to run Doom3 ok? Yep i'll get 1GB of RAM, 2*512 for dual channel. I'm going with a standard hard drive setup.

Moppie - cool, gigabyte boards, and i'll check out them and asus too as Skip seems to like them. I'm planning to go with ascent, but I could put a PC together pretty easily. I've never used antistatic cords and i've never had a problem, I could probably find out at work anyway. Which wholesaler would you recommend?

Yeah i'll avoid retail stores, they're a ripoff and not the best price/performance.

[Moppie]

Which wholesaler would you recommend?



I know a good one in Auckland, but thats bit far from you :)

Ill try and find my cousin email, he works in IT hardware in welly, and should be able to recomend some places that sell to the public.
Otherwise you will have simply start looking through the yellow pages :D


I put my PC together, its a collection of new bits, old bits left over from mates bussines, new bits he kept buying for his own PC but never used, and bits left over from a PC I bought off him built up.
Its so easy its not funny, everything on the m/b is labeled, and it came with a detailed map and insturctions anyway.

[Skip Souza]

If you find a Gigabyte mobo you like, go for it. I have no personal experience with them but I have friends that use them effectively. All the new stuff is pretty much solid. Get the features v. price that works.

[tim]

I did a degree in computer systems engineering, BTech, and I played with the inside of PCs for years, I should be able to work it out :) Only thing i've never done is install a CPU, I expect it'd be pretty well labled :)

Location doesn't matter for a wholesaler, couriers are cheap. I have a mate who's a technician so he might be able to help me out recommending local wholesalers :)

[chris.bailey]

As an alternative, some of the new Shuttle XPC's are pretty damned impressive. Small, quiet and easy to build. I have one in my lounge as a video server and it plays Doom 3 pretty well.

[tim]

There's an interesting article at toms hardware about the motherboard choice (http://www6.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20050103/index.html).

The ABit (http://www.ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=336586) board has a cool little toy that'd be good for overclockers, which is really just a toy. It's AGP rather than PCI express. It has SP-DIF (digital audio) out which could be handy.

The Gigabyte board (http://www.ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=336973) is about the same speed, and has PCI express. It does dual channel memory, has 10 usb headers, SATA RAID, and onboard audio. Looks like i've found my motherboard :)

Next stop, graphics card, and case.

[Moppie]

IOnly thing i've never done is install a CPU, I expect it'd be pretty well labled :)



That was hardest part of the whole assembly!


A bit extra about cases, I skimped on a case, and used the one I got with my old 900 Duron.
It was unfornatly never designed to handle an AMD XP2600+, and it subsequently over heated the graphics card, which is now very tempramental when gaming. (lucky I have a PS2).
My case now has extra holes cut in it (im not kidding) with two extra 120mm fans, and two 60mm fans above the graphics card.
Its noisy, very noisey, but it keeps my room warm in winter, which saves on electricity :)
A decent case would have set me back $70-100, but it would have saved my graphics card, AND it would run much much quieter.
Its now on the list of things to do when I next upgrade, which will be new chip, more ram, and extra HDD.

Which leads to one extra tip when buying a M/B

Don't get the cheapest you can find, I got a gigabyte GA7N400 Pro 2 (no longer in production) when it was just released. I got the first one sold in the country. It cost me more than I wanted to spend at the time, and it was way more than I needed.
However 18months down the track it will still surport a very fast chip (upto 400mhz FSB, so Athalon XP3200+) and will last me at least another 18months, maybe another 2 years + the rate at which CPU speeds are slowing down.


I simply made a list of everything I would need, based on my own knowledge, and by looking at avliable options and looking at options lists and resurching in google what I didnt know, then decieding if I needed it or not.
Dual Bios was an important one to me, as the my previous m/b had bios troubles.
Serial ATA was important becuase I knew I would be upgradding HDD's in the future.
Much faster RAM and CPU surport was also very important, etc etc

[tim]

The gigabyte motherboard gets very good reviews at tomshardware and looks about as futureproof as a motherboard can be. Now i'm looking at graphics cards and cases. Right now the 6600GT is looking to be reasonable price/performance if I want to do any gaming, or the 5750 which is half the price and half the performance. To be realistic I had a gaming capable PC for a while, I played Doom3 a few times then got bored with it, so I should probably get a cheap video card that has a DVI interface and be done with it.

[Moppie]

Can't help with video cards Im afraid, I found mine in a box in the garage, in a pile of stuff my mate left there (along with my keybourd). I knows its a GeForce, I think its 64MB, and its quite tough based on how its been treated :)

[tim]

I think i'll go with the nVidia 6600GT video card. It's got reasonable games performance so it wouldn't need to be replaced for a good while, and if I end up not playing games I haven't wasted a lot of money ($370 or maybe a bit less).

Cases I have have no idea about. I want something not too big and ugly, I hate beige boxes. There's too much choice. I'll email ascent and see if they bother to reply this time.

[KevC]

Wow. $350 is way too much to pay for such an old card. The 6600GT is basically a "souped up" 6200. As I said before, you can overclock that 6200 (provided it's 128bit) to get very close to the 6600GT performance.

I wouldn't trust Toms Hardware too much. Stick with HardOCP and Anandtech for good unbiased reviews.

As for cases, Antec still makes good quality cases at affordable prices. Their PSUs are very good quality too! Don't skimp on that!

Check out hardware forums for good advice (before getting into photography, building PCs was my hobby ;))

[CyberDyneSystems]

I just ordered a G450 for for $22.00 :( (no thats not a typo,. twenty two dollars)

[tim]

Kev, what video card would you get for some light gaming and mostly Photoshop/email/web work? The 6600 GT seems to be a good cost/performance compromise from what i've found.

Ascent recommended a $150 thermaltake power supply with a single 12cm fan, I was hoping to get a case that came with one. Or should I splash out for the one they suggest (http://www.ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=138705) and get a case too? Still no idea on what case to get that's good value.

CDS - they really do cost NZ$285 (US$212) here. Ripoff? I think so.

[FlyingPete]

On Graphics cards, I have a GeForce 2MX, about four years old now. I hav a chance to upgrade on Monday when I replaced my Harddisk, wasn't worth it for me, as I never sue 3D. Upart from dual connectors etc, there is nothing else in them, you would probably find that intrgrated video will do fine for now, but make sure you have AGP/PCIExpress in case it doesn't cut it.

I had a play with a Matrox Parhallea (I think that is how it is spelt?) a few months ago, 3D was OK, not up to the rest of the bunch, BUT, it could run three monitors, nice. We had three 19inch LCD's on it for a demo, I want!

As Moppies said, getting parts from dealers is easier than you would think, I have an cash sale account with Checksun (Gigabyte, Pixelview, Intel, AMD and Seagate) and Techpac! Paid $190incGST for my Seagate 200GB cuda SATA drive on Monday. You can order over the phone, but they charge an extra 5% for Credit Card, not sure what Courier costs are. As I work for a Vendor, I could do some digging for what is available in Wellington...

[tim]

The 6600GT seems fine to me, i'll probably stick with that unless Kev comes up with something else.

My major question right now is case - I want a quiet case with 12cm fans that doesn't cost the earth! Simple and black, perhaps a mini tower?

You got a good deal on that hard drive, if you can find out a good place to buy in Wgtn that'd be great, if not not really a problem. I don't mind buying retail too much, I appreciate the support that a retailer like ascent provides.

[tim]

I was going to ask with help choosing a case, but writing it down helped me decide on the first one below. I've left it below FYI. The question now is really will a 350W power supply be enough for an Athlon 64 3000+, 2 seagate hard drives, and an nVidia 6600 GT graphics card? If so i'll get the first case.

You can ignore this unless you want to see the case.
- CoolerMaster (http://ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=184685). Has an 8cm fan at the front, a 12cm fan at the back, and a 350W power supply supplied - not sure on fan size. Cost $246. I looks pretty good.
- Li Lan (http://ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=337383). It comes with 2 quiet 8cm fans in the front and space for another 8cm fan in the back which I can fill with a quiet $25 fan. The 500W power supply has a 12cm fan. Cost $260. Looks pretty crap.
- iCute (http://ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=121043). Cheap, optional 12cm fan, i'd add a good quiet power supply. Cost with everything $270. Nah, that's crap.

[KevC]

Hehe. Didn't I suggest the 6200? It's basically the same as the 6600GT, just downclocked. Anyway, the 6600GT is also a good card, it's just I don't see why anyone would spend that much more for essentially the same card.

As for the case, I'll say Antec again. They make good power supplies and good cases. I have a Sonata. One 12cm intake, one 12cm exhaust. Comes with a TruePower PSU, which is very important. You did computer engineering, right? You realise the importance of having CLEAN power, not just lots of it. That's why a good PSU with "only" 350W (like what I have) is way better than a no name 500W PSU.

I'd still recommend a single 74GB Western Digital Raptor for your Boot/OS/Scratch disk and a big seagate HDD for your storage. The 10,000RPM will definitely come in handy while working in photoshop. More so than 2GB of RAM will be.

Lian li is awesome, but it's expensive. I personally wouldn't pay that much for a case.

[Moppie]

I have an cash sale account with Checksun

Ditto, well its my mates old trade account, but its very useful, and checksun have fantastic service!


Tim Iv emailed my cousin, but its an old emial address :)

[tim]

Kev, those Antec cases look good, but they're pretty expensive at $330 or so from Ascent right now. Lian Li cases are $235, Cooler Master $246, all with power supply and fans. I went to look at them at a local store, and they're all huge! I'm tempted by the tiny shuttle systems, but i'd rather have a mode modern, expandable system than one of those baby ones, no matter how cute they are ;)

I'm leaning towards the Cooler Master, for style, looks, and fan volume (http://www.coolermaster.com/index.php?LT=english&Language_s=2&url_place=product&ftype=&p_serial=CAV-T01&other_title=0), it should be quiet enough. When you consider that right now I have one 8cm fan 30cm from my head in my current "laptop" i'd say any of the ones that claim to be "silent" should be fine. You can hear this one from across the lounge.

A guy in a store told me that mixing EIDE and SATA disks in the same machine tends to cause them to crash. Anyone else heard that? He said SATA seem noticably faster to him, so maybe i'll sell my 200GB seagate and get two SATA disks. Maybe I will get the raptor too.

Any case thoughts are most welcome, i'm damned if I know what to get right now!

[the7ferret]

www.tomshardware.com has good reviews on monitors.

[tim]

I know about Toms Hardware thanks ferret, I had a look yesterday and Samsung have a very good reputation for LCDs :)

[tim]

I'm gona get the Antech case, costs a bit more but it looks like the best. I'll get the 6600 GT video card even though you say the 6200 is the same and overclockable, i'd rather pay a bit more for the piece of mind - it's out of stock for a week or so :( Athlon 3200+ or 3500+, there's not a lot of difference really.

The only question remaining: assemble it myself, or get them to do it? It can take them 7-9 days they say, and I rekon I could do it without to much hastle. Saves 2% to do it myself, but it might be more hastle if something's DOA.

[Citizensmith]

Remember to get lots of lights. Lighted fans, case lights, etc. A computer goes much faster when it has lots of lights. :)

[tim]

Yeah, red ones go the fastest ;) Seriously, I won't bother with lights, unless they come free with come of the components :)

[FlyingPete]

Yeah, red ones go the fastest ;)

I think it is blue with the number of blue glow PC's I have seen :rolleyes:

What have you found about LCD's? Any I have used with PS, have given me problems, usually as the brightness varies depending on the angle you are looking at it.

[tim]

All I know about LCDs is CyberDyneSystems said he has a 19 inch LCD and he loves it. I have two to choose from, the 910T (http://ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=330109), and the 913N (http://ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=338207). The first has 8ms response time and 700:1 contrast, the second has 800:1 and 25ms response time. Not sure which to go for, my highest priority is color that's as accurate as possible.

I'll solve the brightness/angle problem by sitting still ;)

[KevC]

I'm surprised that the Antec cases are more expensive than Lian-Li. Anyway, I have absolute confidence that you'll do fine. Build it yourself. That 2% can go towards your next L-glass :)

As for the Panels, they're both good. If you're a gamer, then go for the lower response time. 25ms vs 8ms is a huge difference, though I believe the 910T is a 16ms panel, not 8. 8 may be the rise... or fall. You gotta sum them up ;)

Get the 3200+ then, :) What is your motherboard choice? Get an NF4 board if you can. I like DFI.

Make sure your 6600GT is PCIe.

IDE and SATA won't cause the computer to crash. Geez, some of the sales ppl these days. Don't worry about mixing, however, the 10,000RPM raptor will be a huge speed boost (HDDs are the biggest bottleneck. I see all these people with crazy fast processors with a 5400RPM HDD wondering why their computer is too slow).

[tim]

I got it backwards, the 910T actually has 25ms - linky (http://www.samsung.com/au/products/monitors/tft/910t.asp), and it has DVI. It looks like a good overall monitor, though not perfect for games. Hey, my current LCD is 2 years old and was built into an Acer laptop - 25ms has to be faster than that, right? I found that fine for doom3.

Edit - yep got an nForce 4 and a PCI-e card. I'll consider the raptor, apparently the Seagate NCQ drives are pretty good on nForce boards, not quite as quick but almost. I want quiet too. How much would it really hit the system/programs drive when you have 1GB RAM?

Also, where to do I put the swap file? On my data drive, which will be slower?

[tim]

Oh - and would you rather have a 16ms 17 inch lcd, or a 25ms 19 inch LCD?

[FlyingPete]

BTW, found out to day (this !@&*$ me off, cause I got a 7200.7 at the begining of the week), that Seagate have released a 7200.8. Usual bigger faster etc, and all support NCQ, not all 7200.7's do. Mine doesn't. I think you need the 7200.7plus.

Does NForce4 support NCQ? I know the Intel 900 Series chipsets do.

[KevC]

10,000RPM is 2,800RPM faster than 7,200RPM :) I'm sure you figured that out. It doesn't seem like a big difference, but oh it is. Just buy one 74GB raptor for your OS, program files, and swap, and get a nice big seagate 7200.7/8 (I have the 7200.7, love it) for your storage. You'll definitely enjoy it.

Even if you have 1GB of ram, (or more), your HDDs will *still* be accessed to fill that ram. Kinda like the buffer and write speed of cameras. So what if you have a huge buffer, if your write speed is slow, then yeah ;) Other way around works too!

As for the 17 vs 19, it's all preferance. If you don't play any games, response time won't matter to you at all! Resolution is a big thing though, I need lotsa pixels!!

[tim]

I just made the order, thanks for your help everyone :)

I got the Seagate 160GB NCQ as my system drive, I decided based on disk volume, performance, and price. I know the disk's accessed the first time a file's used, but it's cached after that. Gona use the 200GB EIDE as my data disk, might upgrade to SATA one day, we'll see.

Got the Sansung 910T DVI monitor, 25ms, if it's no good i'll exchange it for the other one.

Finally, no more decisions to make! It'll arrive Monday, hopefully all going on monday evening :)

[Moppie]

Awsome!

Your going to have a nervous weekend waiting for it :)

I assume your assembling yourself? I hope so, its quite rewarding when it all works.

[tim]

Nah, it's only a machine. I have a photography club meeting Monday night, I might not even get a chance to put it together until Tuesday evening... or late Monday night :)

[pradeep1]

I am a computer geek/hacker by nature. Whenever I am in the process of putting together a new computer, I read three forums to get the latest street specs. at different performance levels:

1. http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=2378
2. http://arstechnica.com/guides/buyer/system-guide-200411.ars
3. http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MVGSBG/article.php/3491051

These three places give good references with prices. You can pick and choose what you need based on your needs.

Hope this helps.

[Jon]

Get a copy of Thompson & Thompson's Building the Perfect PC (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/buildpc/). You won't regret it. Also visit the Hardware Guys Message Board (http://forums.hardwareguys.com/ikonboard.cgi). Disclosure: I'm an (unpaid) administrator there.