Rumours of replacement for D60

[ScottGregory]

In reply to where to buy a D60 in stock, last weekend I was in Toronto at Henrys Superstore on Queen St. and they had D60's in the display case. I live about two hours from Toronto and today was in a local Canon and multiline dealer. They told me that they have D60's on order and Canon Canada is saying two months for delivery! Also the store personnel told me that they are hearing that Canon has a replacement coming out for the D60 and it might be around that time they would be receiving their ordered stock of D60's. This is the second time in a week I have heard this mentioned, the other time from another large camera store in our city, who is also a Leica, Nikon dealer. The other rumour this store has heard is the Nikon is changing the D100 to a full frame sensor and it will have two card reading slots and that they have heard the replacement for the Canon D60 will be similar. I have been looking at purchasing at D60, but now think I will wait to see if there is any truth to the full frame sensor on the replacement model for the D60. Anybody else out there heard something similar?

[Fat Guy]

I think it's like with buying computers: It's inevitable that if you wait a few months prices will go down, new stuff will come out, etc., etc. and so on. One could easily justify waiting forever to make a purchase by following that logic to the extreme. But during that time you won't have use of the product, and most people overestimate just how badly they really need the latest and newest thing. I just ordered a D60 because I have no intention of wasting my time waiting on rumors. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, maybe I won't, but at least I'll have my camera.

[Morden]

Fat Guy wrote:
I think it's like with buying computers: It's inevitable that if you wait a few months prices will go down, new stuff will come out, etc., etc. and so on. One could easily justify waiting forever to make a purchase by following that logic to the extreme. But during that time you won't have use of the product, and most people overestimate just how badly they really need the latest and newest thing. I just ordered a D60 because I have no intention of wasting my time waiting on rumors. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, maybe I won't, but at least I'll have my camera.
I agree entirely.

I can only relate what I have learned from years of trying to keep up with PC technology. I believe that the gist of the following applies to most technology-based purchases, including digital cameras....

1) If you wait for things to get cheaper, they will. But you won't have the use of them for a while, and they will be 'obsolete' sooner after purchasing them.

2) If you wait for the 'next big thing', it will come, but you will still have done without for a while (as in point 1 above), and will probably pay much more than you intended for a relatively minor improvement.


If the D60 promises to be adequate for whatever task a camera is required, get one!

[oops]

I concur.

I still have the D30 that one year ago was the best of the best.

I have waded through eight months of D60 posts in this forum that have assured me that my D30 is a 'classic' but I couldn't GIVE it away on E-Bay!

My D30 is still producing those very special (almost magical) images that only the D30 can produce. I will replace it one day, but not before I sell it for what it's worth. Based on what I have seen and heard, I'm up to about $3,500 U.S. now. :) :)

Buy your D60's and enjoy them 'till they break! Wear the shutter buttons off and make these extended warranty folks jump through their butts trying to repair them under contract when no more parts are available! Wow, I love a good show!:D

[defordphoto]

All well said! The nice thing about technology is that our D30's, D60's, D100's, etc will ALWAYS take the exact same quality pictures for their entire life. No matter if/when they come out with a 38 giga-pixel camera, ours will still take the same high-quality photographs until they explode, the world ends or they just plain wear out.

I just got mine in October after a 30-day wait, and if I was in the market now for one, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. If you sit around waiting for the latest greatest stuff, you'll sit around waiting for the latest greatest stuff while watching everyone else have fun.

MY wife works for a very well known technology company and they are R&D'ing stuff 5 years out.

[ScottGregory]

Thanks for the replys on rumours of replacement. I, too agree that you should not wait forever. I am just asking if anybody has heard of a rumour if the new version of the D60 might have a full frame sensor.
Currently I am using a G2 and G3, so certainly having lots of fun taking digital pics. But I do like the idea of having the full frame sensor when I go to the SLR.
Would be interested to know from folks using the D60 what they think of the 1.6x factor for lenses on this camera.
Thanks for the replys.

[Longwatcher]

Regards the 1.6x factor. Great for telephoto work.
A bit of a nusiance for portrait work.

Given why the 1.6 factor occurs, I think it is a great thing as they are making the most use of the CMOS sensor. Since digital camera's are currently advertised by the chip's megapixel rating, I was very happy when I discovered the quality of images I was getting when I went from a Kodak DC4800 (3.1MP) to the D60. I expected a 100% improvement in image quality, instead I got almost a 200% improvement. Now if they advertised with both ratings, chip and actual image pixels, it would be easier to make a descision.

Also, I feel the essential autocropping eliminates the area of the lens most subject to distortion.

My only area of annoyance is that I had to get a wider angle lens to compensate.

[mrchips]

longwatcher wrote:
Regards the 1.6x factor. Great for telephoto work.
A bit of a nusiance for portrait work.

Given why the 1.6 factor occurs, I think it is a great thing as they are making the most use of the CMOS sensor. Since digital camera's are currently advertised by the chip's megapixel rating, I was very happy when I discovered the quality of images I was getting when I went from a Kodak DC4800 (3.1MP) to the D60. I expected a 100% improvement in image quality, instead I got almost a 200% improvement. Now if they advertised with both ratings, chip and actual image pixels, it would be easier to make a descision.

Also, I feel the essential autocropping eliminates the area of the lens most subject to distortion.

My only area of annoyance is that I had to get a wider angle lens to compensate.

The 1.6x is not a magnification of the focal lenght, its a cropping value for the field of view. Putting a 400 IS L on a d60 brings the subject no closer than on a 1V just cuts down on the field of view.

[Inactive Member 06]

It's just a field of view crop if you compare it to a full frame sensor with the same pixel density (and therefore a much higher pixel count). Obviously if you look at it this way it's nothing but a disadvantage, but such a sensor would obviously cost far more than the D60's.

Perhaps it's fairer to compare it to a full frame sensor with the same pixel count. In this case it really is a 1.6x magnification. The advantages are pretty obvious:

1) Better for telephoto shots.

2) You only use the central (lowest distortion) part of the lens' field of view.

The obvious disadvantages are:

1) Narrower field of view for a given lens. This is a serious problem since short focal length lenses are very expensive. I bought a Canon 20mm F2.8, but the 14mm just doesn't seem worth the money.

2) Focus and lens sharpness become more critical, due to the higher magnification.

[Longwatcher]

Being a bit defensive for a moment; I did not mention that there was magnification. I stated that it was essentially autocropping. No offence since I sometimes do not state myself as well as I should.

Although I did not state it clearly, I feel that you get more out of the sensor, since you get more of the pixels that are on the sensor. If I back up to bring the framed area to the same size as would be in a full frame sensor, I will have more pixels of the area, then I did with a full frame sensor. Thus I believe this to qualify as higher quality of image, then I get with full frame. As always, just depends on how you use it. I see the problem with the way the D60 is rigged only in purposeful wide angle shots (such as fisheye lenses), where you need the full dimensions of the lens.

[soumya63]

mrchips wrote:
[
The 1.6x is not a magnification of the focal lenght, its a cropping value for the field of view. Putting a 400 IS L on a d60 brings the subject no closer than on a 1V just cuts down on the field of view.



Not true, the subject will appear closer because you are getting a enlarged crop! That is why it is called a focal length multiplier. Strictly speaking we should call it pseudo focal length multiplier as the magnified crop will not display the characteristics of higher bokeh of the longer lenses.

The advantage of the magnified crop is getting best part of your lens with higher sharpness and less vignetting. It is a boon for tele lovers.

The disadvantages is you have to shell out big cash to get a wide enough lens.

The bottom line is, you will indeed get a bigger and closed view of the subject in D30/D60 than 1V.

[WalStro]

It doesen't matter how much you hash this over, the D60 is a flawed item that was rushed into production before it was ready. All we can hope for is that Canon will see the light of day and come out with the D60 II in the near future with all the bugs fixed. I guess those of you who have the camera and are happy with it are just willing to put up with its shortcomings. I have to work for a living turning wrenches in a tin can plant and therefore I tend to think that when I lay out $2200 for a camera body it ought to work as advertised. To each his own I guess.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

soumya63 wrote:
The bottom line is, you will indeed get a bigger and closed view of the subject in D30/D60 than 1V.


You do not getter a bigger view. The size of the subject on the D30/D60 sensor is the same size as it would be on 35mm film. The FOV cropping does not change the optical magnification of the lens. If that eagle on that branch way over there, looks like a sparrow with your 1V, it will still look like a sparrow with your D30, you will just see less branch. :)

Regards,

[soumya63]

If you crop a picture and enlarge it to the original size, wont it get magnified? That sparrow will indeed look bigger as bigger as a 1.6 time focal length magnifier will make it look :)

Do not believe me? Shoot both with 1V and D30 with the same lens and see!

By the way, could not resist to add few more lines, what does a tele photo lens does? We all konw that it reduces the field of vision, so you see less part of the scene. The smaller part of the scene fills up your same area of viewfinder, which in turns magnifies the image and you see closer. the same thing is hapening here. You are getting smaller crop which is getting printed same size as that of a 35mm size sensor output, not optically, but digitally.


gfoto.tripod.com (http://gfoto.tripod.com)

[mrchips]

WalStro wrote:
It doesen't matter how much you hash this over, the D60 is a flawed item that was rushed into production before it was ready. All we can hope for is that Canon will see the light of day and come out with the D60 II in the near future with all the bugs fixed. I guess those of you who have the camera and are happy with it are just willing to put up with its shortcomings. I have to work for a living turning wrenches in a tin can plant and therefore I tend to think that when I lay out $2200 for a camera body it ought to work as advertised. To each his own I guess.


....and what doesn't work as advertised???? I totally disagree with you on this. I have not had a single complaint eith the operation of my D30 or D60.

[mrchips]

Roger_Cavanagh wrote:
soumya63 wrote:
The bottom line is, you will indeed get a bigger and closed view of the subject in D30/D60 than 1V.


You do not getter a bigger view. The size of the subject on the D30/D60 sensor is the same size as it would be on 35mm film. The FOV cropping does not change the optical magnification of the lens. If that eagle on that branch way over there, looks like a sparrow with your 1V, it will still look like a sparrow with your D30, you will just see less branch. :)

Regards,





Roger, finally someone who can figure this out, even canon now offficialyy calls it at FOV crop.
Denny

[Roger_Cavanagh]

soumya63 wrote:
If you crop a picture and enlarge it to the original size, wont it get magnified? That sparrow will indeed look bigger as bigger as a 1.6 time focal length magnifier will make it look :)

Do not believe me? Shoot both with 1V and D30 with the same lens and see!

By the way, could not resist to add few more lines, what does a tele photo lens does? We all konw that it reduces the field of vision, so you see less part of the scene. The smaller part of the scene fills up your same area of viewfinder, which in turns magnifies the image and you see closer. the same thing is hapening here. You are getting smaller crop which is getting printed same size as that of a 35mm size sensor output, not optically, but digitally.


Digital enlargement is not the same as optical enlargement as I'm sure you know. Using my 100-400 on the D30 does not turn it into 160-640mm lens; using my 1.4x TC does turn it into a 140-560 equivalent. When I zoom from 100 to 400 I really do magnify the image, not just chop something off the outside.

Regards,

[Fat Guy]

WalStro wrote:
the D60 is a flawed item that was rushed into production before it was ready
But isn't that the standard for consumer electronics? Everything these days is a beta version. If we waited for Canon to perfect the digital camera, we'd still be sitting here in 2010 waiting for the right moment to buy. I'm sure Canon will continue to improve its product line, but the best you can hope for at any given moment is the best existing version of a product at a given price point. In my opinion that's what we have with the D60, nothing more nothing less.

[soumya63]

Roger_Cavanagh wrote:
Digital enlargement is not the same as optical enlargement as I'm sure you know. Using my 100-400 on the D30 does not turn it into 160-640mm lens; using my 1.4x TC does turn it into a 140-560 equivalent. When I zoom from 100 to 400 I really do magnify the image, not just chop something off the outside.


So you have noticed you are getting the enlarged image in D30 :D Well that is the point, in D30, all the lenses will capture pictures as if taken by 1.6 times their focal length. From the very beginning I am emphasizing this fast and no where I have said that it is an optical magnification. I just corrected your statement that there will be no magnification or enlargement in D30 pictures compared to a normal 35 mm camera.

Regards

[gsrossano]

Fat Guy wrote:
WalStro wrote:
the D60 is a flawed item that was rushed into production before it was ready
But isn't that the standard for consumer electronics? Everything these days is a beta version. If we waited for Canon to perfect the digital camera, we'd still be sitting here in 2010 waiting for the right moment to buy. I'm sure Canon will continue to improve its product line, but the best you can hope for at any given moment is the best existing version of a product at a given price point. In my opinion that's what we have with the D60, nothing more nothing less.

No. The D60 is a flawed item that was rushed into production before it was ready.

Of all the bad things that Microsoft has done, the worst perhaps is that they have convinced the public that paying top dollar for defective products is the cost of progress and that consumer protection laws should not apply to software and consumer electronics.

[Pat Lepore]

Calling the D60 a flawed camera is a bit harsh.

Since the upgrade to Firmware 1.0.4 I have not had a problem with my camera.

So it has a 1.6 cropping factor, this is not a flaw but a trade off to keep the price down. A 6Mp full frame sensor 12 months ago would have put it into the D1s price range.

Slow to focus? This is not a flaw but a design limitation. I bet that Canon didn't wan't it to focus as fast as the D1, or do anything as good as the D1. They would have been shooting themselves in the foot if they had.

The D60 has enabled many consumers, including myself, to get back into SLR photography. I shot film SLR for many years as a hobby, I then tried digital with a Kodak DC4800 and could not go back to film. (If you think shooting flash with the D60 is inconsistant, try it with a point and shoot digital).

I thank Canon for designing and manufacturing the D60. I also thank Nikon and Fuji for providing Canon some sort of competition.

Pat.

[gsrossano]

pat lepore wrote:
Calling the D60 a flawed camera is a bit harsh.

Since the upgrade to Firmware 1.0.4 I have not had a problem with my camera.

So it has a 1.6 cropping factor, this is not a flaw but a trade off to keep the price down. A 6Mp full frame sensor 12 months ago would have put it into the D1s price range.

Slow to focus? This is not a flaw but a design limitation. I bet that Canon didn't wan't it to focus as fast as the D1, or do anything as good as the D1. They would have been shooting themselves in the foot if they had.

The D60 has enabled many consumers, including myself, to get back into SLR photography. I shot film SLR for many years as a hobby, I then tried digital with a Kodak DC4800 and could not go back to film. (If you think shooting flash with the D60 is inconsistant, try it with a point and shoot digital).

I thank Canon for designing and manufacturing the D60. I also thank Nikon and Fuji for providing Canon some sort of competition.

Pat.

I agree that some of the issues you mention are design choices that I would not call flaws either. And if it does the job you need it to do that's great. But they are not the things that bug me. And...

As the user/owner of a 1V, D30, D60 and 1D, the D60 is the least reliable of the four. The one that has given me the most problems. The one that has required the most repairs and adjustments. And the one that has let me down most often on the job. In fact, the D60 has given me more grief than the other three bodies combined! For my needs (as a freelance photographer), and from my experience, the d60 clearly does not meet past standards for Canon products, and among the photographers I work with (sports mainly) it is generally accepted that the D60 was rushed into production to keep up with product releases from Nikon.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I agree, if you don't stress it too hard it does take pretty pictures, and I am not about to dump mine. But I agree with the post that started this discussion, when I pay $2200 for a camera body I expect a product that works trouble free and reliably. Something Canon used to provide all the time, but not with this product. (A Canon user for 15 years.)

[Ralf Jannke]

I hope for 2003 and a "D 75". Not really for the higher resolution but a lensfactor by 1,3 or even 1,2! I would like to use my 17-35 USM and the russian fisheyes with their real focal length' 8 mm an 16 mm....

[kyskim]

Replacement for D60 is coming in end of 2003 or early 2004. It uses same CMOS for 11.1mill.Pi. in 1DX. Price around $3500 us. Nikon will produce a replacement for D1X for 13.7mill. Pi. using new CMOS in late 2003. They may also relase a replacement of D100 at same time to compete with Canon.

[Pekka]

kyskim wrote:
Replacement for D60 is coming in end of 2003 or early 2004. It uses same CMOS for 11.1mill.Pi. in 1DX. Price around $3500 us. Nikon will produce a replacement for D1X for 13.7mill. Pi. using new CMOS in late 2003. They may also relase a replacement of D100 at same time to compete with Canon.

Sounds like soothesayer talk to me :)

[ScottGregory]

Other than dates as the previous member mentions, the information he provides is exactly what I heard, when I originally asked on this thread. A full frame CMOS sensor for the new model D60 and the Nikon D100 would be full frame as well. Will be interesting to see if indeed there is any truth to this. My information was received from a Dealer in Canada who handles the Canon line. Interesting!

[jmublueduck]

surprised no one's mentioned this rumor mill... many times they've been right... but sometimes not. it's worth a look: http://eosseries.ifrance.com/eosseries/en/eos_news.html

[steve_usa_2000]

I understand everyone’s concerns on the CMOS, but has anyone looked at the photos this camera produces? OH MY!!! This camera produces some of the most amazing images I have seen. Film or digital. The enlargements compete with medium format film. Yes it is a little annoying that the CMOS is not full sized but for the price I am so happy it’s out there and available to us pro-sumers.

I wish everyone would stop crying over there CMOS size. When something else comes out better we will all start wanting that but for now anyone who is not using a D30 or D60 is missing out IMHO.

Happy Shooting Everyone.

[robertwgross]

steve_usa_2000 wrote:
I understand everyone?s concerns on the CCD, but has anyone looked at the photos this camera produces? OH MY!!! This camera produces some of the most amazing images I have seen. Film or digital. The enlargements compete with medium format film. Yes it is a little annoying that the CCD is not full sized but for the price I am so happy it?s out there and available to us pro-sumers.

I wish everyone would stop crying over there CCD size. When something else comes out better we will all start wanting that but for now anyone who is not using a D30 or D60 is missing out IMHO.

Happy Shooting Everyone.


Steve, the D60 does not have a CCD sensor. What are you talking about?

The D60 (last time I checked mine) has a CMOS sensor.

---Bob Gross---

[steve_usa_2000]

Thanks for the correction. CMOS it is... Does not change my opinion though.

[steve_usa_2000]

Fat Guy wrote:
I think it's like with buying computers: It's inevitable that if you wait a few months prices will go down, new stuff will come out, etc., etc. and so on. One could easily justify waiting forever to make a purchase by following that logic to the extreme. But during that time you won't have use of the product, and most people overestimate just how badly they really need the latest and newest thing. I just ordered a D60 because I have no intention of wasting my time waiting on rumors. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, maybe I won't, but at least I'll have my camera.

I did the same thing and always do. I was also one of the first G1 owners. Some of my friends waited for the G2 and then G3 the whole time I shot thousands of pictures.

Buy it and use it. You can't go wrong. I would love to hear how you like the images you get from the camera. I enjoy the camera tremendously.