Really need your help pls

[TamEric]

shew wee

i'm so sad and disappointed

So out of all my customers for normal shoots and weddings i've never had anyone unhappy bout their photo's - and if someone had a problem i will re-edit or do something right

So i did a wedding, i waited and waited for the bride and they came and reviewed their pics said they were gorgeous and i can print - she even sent me emails after to say she can't believe how gorgeous her pics were etc

so i printed and did the album and everything right

I post the album to the bride as she lives quiet a distance from where i am

I get an email now where she is complaining bout everything... she said the pics aren't in order in the album and complained bout the colours in the album, but now the pics that i showed them are the exact same colour as in the album, my screen is calibrated so what you see is what you get.

now she said she is not happy with her skin colour etc I mean i changed nothing just printed them

she said the photobook i did was tasteless and tacky

http://forum.mommy.co.za/images/smiles/cry.gif http://forum.mommy.co.za/images/smiles/cry.gif http://forum.mommy.co.za/images/smiles/cry.gif http://forum.mommy.co.za/images/smiles/cry.gif

she wants a whole new album and she wants a complete refund - i'm sorry thats not fair is it?

Its amazing how she was over the moon when she came to view them but now she is complaining non stop???

i just wnat to cry

what do i do????

[SuzyView]

I moved this thread to Talk as you will get more responses from pros here.

I am a pro now and have never dealt with someone so insensitive. I think the "tasky and tasteless" is severe. But I think she just wants to get the images and do her own thing. What does your contract say? Don't cry. There are always a few out there who are never happy. I think you need to take a deep breath, decide if this is worth it, and be strong in what you think. It'll take courage, believe me, but you can do it. If you think your work was good, you need to "work with" the client. If the client wants the images, she'll have to pay for them.

[TheHoff]

I've seen a few album designs posted here that I definitely did not like and I know my wife would think they were totally over-the-top tacky. However the posts received a ton of positive comments with mostly women gushing over them.

You can't account for taste -- if you like the album design, it doesn't mean it will be to the bride's taste. Even if it is 'girly' or 'flowery' or whatever other adjective you thought might describe her, maybe she wanted something simple? It sounds like this is more about your album and prints than the images themselves.

I think a refund is silly but you should make her happy with the prints -- bring her in and show her that the colours match. Make sure you know what she wants in her album design -- discuss options and examples? You can print a simple, modern, high quality hardcover book with Apple or Blurb.com for under $40 -- maybe she would like that instead.

[TamEric]

TheHoff, the album is very basic not too many frills and fuss and all of that, it was the first screen shots i sent her to see if it were to her liking, she didn't even come back to say can we try xyz she just said thats it and she wants a refund - i mean honestly - don't you then rather tell the person firstly this is more or less what i wanted and see if that person cna then redo and create something they want? Not just straight out say its horrible????

I know its all a matter of taste and all tastes differ

She said the colours on teh photos' aren't right all of the sudden and now all of the sudden they are underexposed on some - but then why did she give the go ahead to print and why was she gushing all over them????

I feel like responding to say that none of my other clients thought their stuff was tacky and tasteless so i find it hard that she finds it so terrible, and that i am willing to do the photobook as she would like she just needs to tell me what changes she would like

I also feel like telling her that the album and prints stay as it is cause she did afterall give the go ahead for prints etc. And i dont' see why i need to buy a new album and do the prints just cause she doesn't like the layout

I have now added to my terms and conditions that the album and printed images will be given to them to stick down and should they wish that I stick them down, that I take no liability to the layout of hte album - what you think

[SuzyView]

She doesn't want any of it, or she wants it, but just wants her money back?

[cchooks]

Money back is never in my vocabulary. In the USA, most cable channels run Bridezilla shows and now it is almost like they feel they have to act that way. I do NOTHING without a signature from the bride. She wants me to design the album.... Sign right here. These are the images you like.... SIgn right here with your approval. You have money in the form of a finished product, and your time and talent invested in the whole deal. No money should exchange hands. Try to please her if you can, but know that if this is the kind of girl I think she is no matter what you do, she will bad mouth you anyway. You will not win on that front. Do what is in your heart what you fell is right, and no more.

[Robert16]

she wants a whole new album and she wants a complete refund - i'm sorry thats not fair is it?



No that's not fair. Did she see a sample of the layout before it went to print? If not I would redo another layout and offer to make any changes she suggests. She should not get her album for free, do not give her her money back. Put down the money lost on her 1st album to experience.

[tim]

Tell her you're happy to give her a refund, but only if she returns all the images, and she won't get any more. Alternately have her send the photo book back, and have an experienced professional look it over and give their opinion. Or post the design here. Sounds like you'll have to replace the book.

Before any album is printed I do printed 5x7" proofs for my customers (from a 14x10" album), which they have to initial and sign an album agreement, to avoid problems like these.

[TamEric]

hi all thanks for your comments, i think i am explaining myself wrong though

the photobook has not been printed - i merely sent her the screen shots of the first draft for her approval for it to go to print

The album i refer to is a Henzo album with the printed photo's that i stuck down with specialised double sided tape for photo's and albums

She wants what I sent her plus another album and another set of prints, and her money back

[tim]

Stop using email, call her and make an appointment for her to come by, or for you to go see her. People are more reasonable in person. Don't get into anything on the phone. Take a printout of her initial email saying wow, and a printed draft of the book (A4 paper's fine). Find out the real issue, and address is.

I go over album designs and change them with the customer in my office. It works well.

Let us know how you get on.

[TamEric]

HI Tim

the problem is she lives 4 and half hours drive from where i am - so i can't meet with her and sort it out

[Karl Johnston]

This is where having a layout and contract really helps, beforehand.

[TamEric]

What can i say to the bride if she says this and i quote

"if you decide not to correct the album, I can and will make sure that everyone knows that you have great photo ideas but your final result looks sloppy and rushed."

[Just Be]

I use to shoot weddings many years ago. I was asked to shoot a friend of a friend..."the bride". It went well and they got a bargain for what I did. I had a contract. They paid for my time. Photos extra.

They loved the proofs. Passed them all around. Everyone loved them. I get a call a couple of weeks later from the groom saying, "It's obvious you are just starting out. We are really disappointed and won't be buying any of the photos."

Turns out they were broke. Couldn't afford even the wedding, let alone me and buying photos. They paid for my time but missed out on some nice images that I was very proud of.

A year later they divorced. He remarried and they asked me to photograph their wedding. I did and they bought everything.

People are funny and then again not so much. Shooting weddings is great. Dealing with brides and grooms and motb's isn't worth it for me.

[tim]

the problem is she lives 4 and half hours drive from where i am - so i can't meet with her and sort it out

Meet her at a cafe half way. People really are more reasonable in person. If that's impossible do things on the phone, not by email. Above all stay professional, don't lose your cool, and don't give in to unreasonable demands.

[Just Be]

What can i say to the bride if she says this and i quote

"if you decide not to correct the album, I can and will make sure that everyone knows that you have great photo ideas but your final result looks sloppy and rushed."

Without a contract, it's a tough call.

With a contract you can always use the..."On the contract that you signed it states..."

[TamEric]

istn't it slander though of she runs around telling her personal opinion to all and making my name bad

surely a personal opinion is just that - a personal opinion

[Just Be]

istn't it slander though of she runs around telling her personal opinion to all and making my name bad

surely a personal opinion is just that - a personal opinion

Yeah, if you wanted to play hard ball with her you could threaten with a possible law suit, but then it can just make things worse.

I agree with those who say try to get together and work something out. She needs to at least pay for your time.

So I take it you really didn't have any kind of contract? If so you could just write it off as a learning lesson and know better next time?

[TamEric]

i had basic terms on my quote sent

but only set up proper terms and conditions in December when i was on leave - which covers everything

i have now added that the bride and groom will get their album and prints and they will stick them down

ai i just want to cry - i feel so sad

[Deckham]

As people have suggested - meet in person. Preferably, take a third party with you - a photographer would be good.

Remember that the written word is often misunderstood. I know that I have often been misinterpreted in emails and such.

[dinny66]

Sounds terrible mate. Questions though.
1. Does she actually have anything to moan about or is it groundless? eg, are the prints in the wrong order as she suggested? If so, can you remount then without damage? Are the print colours incorrect draft vs final?
2. Putting the cost to one side for a moment, if she wants a replacement album then the original needs to be returned to you (if it's that bad why would she want it?). In the UK you have the right as the supplier to have the faulty goods returned to you.
3. Did she pay for prints or any of the other things she's asking for? If not, the answer has to be charge for them, but maybe give her a discount 'as a gesture of goodwill' or something. Wouldn't entertain 'free' at all.
4. Her suggestion about 'telling everyone' is slander, defamation of character and the fact it's in writing probably libelous too.
5. I would agree with the other sugeestions and arrange a meet halfway with a 3rd party pro to go over it face to face though.
Good luck with it, I hope it gets resolved amicably.

(Reminds me why I always so no to a wedding when asked).

[TamEric]

Dinny66

1) I have showed it to 4 other people before shipping it off to her - all 4 found nothing wrong - and 2 of them were photographers. the prints are in order of happenings on the wedding - and honestly i don't see what is wrong with the album - can't remount without damaging the album

2) I understand and if i did a replacement album - I would demand the original one to be sent back to me

3) My package is complete incl prints and coverage time

4) i thought it must be slander and me having it in writing gives me a leg to stand on - thanks for confirming

Thanks all for your suggestions - lol i feel like telling her to get flucked - but in a nice way

[tim]

Post your layouts so we can see them.

[TamEric]

the layout for the album she has i can't as she has them

but this is the first draft for the coffee table book (please note that the BRIDE insisted on the wording - she gave me the wording per photo that she wanted in the book)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/1-2.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/2-2.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/3-2.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/4-2.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/5-2.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/6-1.jpg

[TamEric]

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/7-1.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/8-1.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/9-4.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/10-1.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o200/ConnerMuniz/11-1.jpg

[tim]

To be honest I can see her point - it's pretty ugly, there's weird actions been used which I don't like, exposures/brightness are wrong, lots of things are out of alignment, it's inconsistent in layout and borders, and it looks dated already. If I was given that as a proof for my wedding album i'd not be happy. We can help you improve it, but you'll need to talk to her first to find out what her key issues are.

[TamEric]

this is the photobook first draft and in my mail i sent her i asked what she would like changed, she didn't even give me the chance

So pls help me then - this is my first ever photobook - i've done albums (hard copy printed pics in a henzo) but never this

[dinny66]

Dinny66

1) I have showed it to 4 other people before shipping it off to her - all 4 found nothing wrong - and 2 of them were photographers. the prints are in order of happenings on the wedding - and honestly i don't see what is wrong with the album - can't remount without damaging the album

2) I understand and if i did a replacement album - I would demand the original one to be sent back to me

3) My package is complete incl prints and coverage time

4) i thought it must be slander and me having it in writing gives me a leg to stand on - thanks for confirming

Thanks all for your suggestions - lol i feel like telling her to get flucked - but in a nice way

Thanks Tam. That sounds fairly good then 1-4.
Guess that means she's got to have the prints she's paid for.
Looking at your layouts there not really horrible in anyway. Personally I might tweak a few things here and there, even up some of the image sizes on a couple of pages, recrop one or two, but I don't think it's bad the way she seems to describe it.
I certainly think the images themselves look great, really seem to have caught the moment.

The chocolate wedding cake made me smile, never seen one of them before. It's always been fruity, spongy and lots of marzipan and icing.

Cheers

Mike

[tim]

General comments:
- I like pages to be all color or all B&W/Sepia, not a mix.
- Align things properly.
- Use consistent borders.
- I like symmetry for simple albums - the right page should mirror the left. I break this guideline more often than not, but it's good to start with. A better guideline would be around balanced pages, but I don't know how to explain it, I just know how to do it.
- Don't use strange actions.
- Make sure photos are properly processed - brightness, color, contrast etc.
- Change to white backgrounds with a very thin black stroke around the images.
- Use PhotoJunction or something to design it, not photoshop. PJ's free now.
- Lower the opacity of background images.
- Ditch the words. Her problem.
- No selective color.

Search for album critique posts by me. If you want an example of an album i've done check out this album (http://mrwild.co.nz/temp/ss-br-5/). It was done as an 18x12" Queensberry album, 3 feet wide when it's opened out.

[tim]

Looking at your layouts there not really horrible in anyway. Personally I might tweak a few things here and there, even up some of the image sizes on a couple of pages, recrop one or two, but I don't think it's bad the way she seems to describe it.

I certainly think the images themselves look great, really seem to have caught the moment.

I'm going to disagree with you - it's not good at all, and the photos are average from what little I can see. I suspect the more experienced people will agree with me. To someone new these probably look fine.

(this isn't directed at dinny) A general rule for forums is you need to know whos advice to listen to, and who's to give less weight to. One hint though, when you're looking at the advice given check out the persons website.

[TamEric]

Thanks Dinny66 you made me feel lots better

Tim

Thanks so much for your tips, I don't understand your 4th point though
Which strange actions are you talking about
the bride requested the black pages?
I use myphotobook......... www.myphotobook.co.za

checking your book now

[TamEric]

i listen to all advice Tim

[TamEric]

Tim i see what you mean with your photobook compared to mine

how many pages in total is your book?

[TamEric]

oh and one more - i'm in south african can i use PJ here

[tim]

Customers often need to be guided, which is why I initially create albums without consultation from them. They can change it after that, but I want them to see what I do first. People hire me for my photography and my albums.

My 4th point - symmetry? Not sure how to explain it, it's pretty simple. Like pages 3-7 of that album. Also check out this album (http://mrwild.co.nz/temp/kp-alb-0.8/) - it's a fairly early draft but it'll give you some more ideas. Try reading this (http://daphne.palomar.edu/design/bsymm.html) about symmetry (quick google so it might not be relevant).

My album is about 40 pages (pages = sides). It's not a book, it's an album, photographic paper bound to rigid pages.

Listen to all advice, but make sure you pay the most attention to the people who give you the most valuable advice. This isn't always the advice you want to hear. I find the best advice comes from experienced professionals.

[tim]

Yes, you can use PJ anywhere. There's a steep learning curve, expect to spend half a day watching videos, reading tutorials, and playing around before you get it. Your first album might take a full day to design in PJ. Your second will take 1/3 that, and the next even less. I can design a simple album in 2 hours, though the albums i've linked to here would take a fair bit longer.

[Karl Johnston]

OP: Like I said before, this has to be discussed with (layout, design, theme, look, wording, etc.) beforehand to avoid problems like this in the future.

To be honest I don't see much wrong with your book.. It isn't something I would do but telling you to be a better photog/processor is just simply not fair and none of my concern.

She enlisted you as a photog, she trusted in your service. If she doesn't like what you produce...then too bloody bad, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Me ----->1) Refuse to refund, do not do business with her again.
Nice guys ---->2) Refund, and do not do business with her again.

Simply put she has consolidated to enlisting your services are a photographer and agreed to them by method of implied contract - it's a legally binding agreement which is a whole lot easier to prove in court with a witness/signature and a document outlining your Terms and the contract shes binded over.

If she refuses to pay, take her to small claims court. I can't really see the layout very well and thus not the pictures in detail (and I don't need to). I can't tell you you should be a better photographer with more PP skills; thats just not fair. Everyone does things differently, and she trusted you to do her wedding, implied a contract with you to pay you for your services. She needs to hold up her end of the deal. That's what I would do if I had already sent this off for print and had the photos in hand to be delivered.

Now if you do simply have a draft of the layout you want - discuss with her NOW with what she wants, scrap your first draft and get her to detail what she wants done, leave nothing out. Save all those e-mails, too, not only for ref. but for legal reasons.

I don't know how things work in south africa so I can't help you there but that's how it works over here in Canada.

quick question: What did this cost?

[TamEric]

Tim how would i have it printed???

Kajuah - thanks for your comments really appreciate it

[tim]

Tim how would i have it printed???

Stay with whatever printer you're using IMHO, books are fine at the lower end and are good value. I use Queensberry to print and bind my albums, they're one of the better album manufacturers, based in New Zealand.

[dinny66]

I'm going to disagree with you - it's not good at all, and the photos are average from what little I can see. I suspect the more experienced people will agree with me. To someone new these probably look fine.

(this isn't directed at dinny) A general rule for forums is you need to know whos advice to listen to, and who's to give less weight to. One hint though, when you're looking at the advice given check out the persons website.

Ouch! To be fair, I am trying to be diplomatic and maybe I should have been more specific about what I would change, but you do raise good points. As a pro wedding 'tog your advice is obviously sound (and some great layouts too!). Mine is purely based on my personal taste. I prefer sports and wildlife.
I re-reviewed it with your comments to hand and I can see your points.
I still don't think is really bad. I wouldn't pick it personally, but there you go.

The black backgrounds are too 'funerealistic' for me. There are a few cropped heads which need attention too. Plus the stuff you and others have mention might do the trick.

Eric, you might have to take this one on the chin a bit and get her sorted out. At least you'll have a reputation as having good customer service as well.

Mike