Question about working for a studio...

[Nicole Faith]

...when you've already been working freelance for over a year.

I am looking for information and suggestions on a position I was offered. I have been working as a freelance photographer, while finishing my BFA in photography. In the next few years I will be moving and starting up my own business. But for now... one of my professors passed me a job opportunity from a previous student of his, who now owns their own photography studio. They were looking for a student who was interested in wedding photography.

To make this as short as possible, I applied for the position and got it. Even though I already book weddings myself, I thought it would be helpful to see how a full studio runs and to be able to work with other photographers, as I work alone right now. This is a contracted position, where I basically show up for the wedding, shoot it and turn over the images. The studio only offered to pay minimum wage for wedding coverage - which is my main concern. Aside from that, I am loosing all copyright to images, can not edit images at my discretion and I do not make a profit on any prints. (which is a huge profit alone) The studio also wants me to join PPA (which I understand and had planned to anyways) but that is an up front cost of about $350.00 a year alone plus the cost of the exact insurance they would like me to have on top of the insurance I already have on my own. This is something they require despite only offering minimum wage and no promise or guarantee on how many gigs I would be hired on for.

Aside from (you) not knowing how the job market is in this location, I am looking to know, on a base level, if this is a shoty deal. Where I understand that the studio had contacted the college looking for a student with base level experience, they offered the position to me instead because I did have experience. I could get any job for minimum wage, so my feelings are that for a position like this, the pay rate should be higher. This is a skilled talent after all.

I do understand that questions of how long I have been doing this, what equipment I have and obvious talent will be asked. So here is what I can offer - I am getting a BFA in photography not because it's needed to run a photography business, but because I want it and because I am good at it. I have been photographing since before I could drive, but only recently started accepting pay for my work. I have done a handful of weddings on my own via word of mouth (all over $1000.00) and just as many E-sessions, family shoots and senior pics. I shoot a lot of fashion and conceptual stuff personally though. I own a Canon 5D with multiple glass, multiple flashes, tripods, reflectors, ect. I know how to work in a studio and I have a full background of how to use a film camera (develope my own film and print) - among other things. I also work everyday in Photoshop and Lightroom and have the most up to date copies. I don't feel I am just messing around here.

I personally don’t know if it’s just me thinking I should be paid more or if this is really just how it is. Going from working on my own to probably only second shooting is weird, it’s working backwards in a way. I have no doubt that I will learn new things, but I just feel less than excited about this opportunity. I don’t want to short-sell myself. I would also be using their equipment because they use all Fuji/Nikon. And I have only worked with Canon. I don’t current advertise myself as a photographer – I am still working on my site (moving from HTML to flash) and putting promotional products together – but the studio knows this and is ok with it. That is one main positive.

I would just like to know if I should suck it up or hold on to valuing my talent?



Below is a link to one gallery I uploaded to my facebook account - as the bride wanted to be able to access them on there as well. (and no I don't direct clients here normally if anyone asks, because I feel some scolding coming on)


http://www.new.facebook.com/album.php?aid=9831&l=aa7ff&id=1356235748

[gravy graffix]

being a main shooter for a studio from my research is 800-1000 per wedding... maybe 600 area if it is a shoot and burn.

oooh 8.00 a hour or what ever your min wage is in your state.... tell them to pound sand. thats a RIDICULOUS figure seriously. let some other chump have it.

it would take A LOT of weddings at 64.00 dollars to make up for one of yours on your own... id say keep on keeping on.

[noxcuses1]

Wow, I'm speechless. That's insulting. I agree with above post as you could make more in one wedding on your own than a whole season working for them.

[intrinsicvalue]

To be honest, I have no wedding photography experience and would take the job if offered because I need the experience and no one will pay me to get it. After shooting enough weddings that I felt capable and comfortable booking my own clients, I'd leave.

You have the experience, they don't have to train you. You would be their asset, their bread and butter, and they should take care of you. If you feel like you're getting a raw deal you most likely won't be happy working for them, and those employment situations never work out well.

If you need the money, keep the job. If you don't need the money, I think your time would be better spent finishing your website, advertising, and moving yourself forward instead of helping another studio flourish off your labor.

[PhotosGuy]

This is a contracted position, where I basically show up for the wedding, shoot it and turn over the images. So I don't see where they're really teaching you something? Do they provide you with a back-up body, flash, etc?
Your images are pretty good. In your place I'd get back-up equipment, get the PPA insurance, & continue on my own.

[Dennis_Hammer]

Your professor really doesn't like you does he? I tell you what come to my area I will give $20 an hour and I will dance all the way to the bank.

[noxcuses1]

Your professor really doesn't like you does he? I tell you what come to my area I will give $20 an hour and I will dance all the way to the bank.

LOL, Gotta appreciate the honesty! :)

[amccomis]

Dear Nicole,

Tell them to go stack rocks.

You ALREADY have more gear than most "ooh, I bought a Rebel, let me go shoot weddings" guys out there now. Your shots (from what I saw on FaceBook) arent' bad at all... I loved the sun flare one. Composition, posing, lighting, etc will all come with more experience...

(PS: the one of the bride holding her cans while getting her dress zipped or adjusted isn't a very attractive shot...)

The only way I would even consider accepting keeping this position is with these modifications:

A> You will willingly assign all copyright to them under a "work for hire" agreement, with the stipulation you may retain the right to use them in your portfolio.

B> You must modify the pay arrangement to say you'll make $8/hour OR an EVENT MINIMUM of $800. Alternatively, you get to shoot with your gear and charge them an EQUIPMENT RENTAL fee of $1000/day.

Either way, every day you work FOR THEM at whatever price, you are BLOCKING other clients who may book you directly at whatever you can charge them ($1200 or whatever you feel is right for your skill/level/experience/etc.)

I think, given those stipulations, they will likely understand and rescind the offer ... OR maybe do something in between to at least make it fair for you.

No wonder they hired you... they're getting a steal of a deal. If I could, I'd hire pretty much anyone on this forum if I could for $8/hour to shoot pictures.

[Nicole Faith]

gravy graffix - thankx for the insight. lol. Minimum wage here is about $7.50 I think, but they did offer me $8.00. I expected at least $500.00 for a shoot and burn as well, as that is what I had come across with other references. Considering that the largest plan they offer is over $1,700 and an 8x10 print costs $30.00 from there.

intrinsicvalue - Thank you, that is understandable. I think what they wanted to "do with me" was have me second shoot for a few and then if they felt comfortable, I could shoot alone or as lead. As lead, I would only make $250.00 per wedding though - before taxes. Money always helps, as I said I am not currently advertising myself as a photographer because I am not at that point yet - but I want to be. I would learn new equipment if nothing else.

PhotosGuy - as far as I know right now, no backup. I don't know what they would be teaching me if I shot alone, but if I shot with someone, I am sure I can always learn something new. It never ends really. And thank you.

Dennis_Hammer - ha ha, thankx. Actually, he passed out the position request to all the student photographers and a handful applied. I was the one offered the position though.

amccomis - thank you for the well thought out suggestions. I agree about many points you made. And the image of the bride getting dressed was actually one that she liked due to the situation that was going on while that was happening. There was a struggle with the girls and the placement of the bra.

[amccomis]

And the image of the bride getting dressed was actually one that she liked due to the situation that was going on while that was happening. There was a struggle with the girls and the placement of the bra.

Bingo! See, when I saw it, I didn't think too highly of it - but to the bride, she loved it because it made her recall a particular highlight of her day. It's all about capturing memories like this.

Your statement of making $500 as a 2nd shooter is not far off. I made $300 for my first jobs when I was shooting 2nd. I think that's a more than reasonable expectation.

I don't know what's next in this for you, but I wish you the best of luck.

In fact, instead of working for this company, maybe you'll find someone in your area who could use a 2nd, and will both pay you a fair wage and secondly, let you at least share the rights for use in your portfolio.

[Nicole Faith]

Your statement of making $500 as a 2nd shooter is not far off. I made $300 for my first jobs when I was shooting 2nd. I think that's a more than reasonable expectation.

Really? I was actually quoting that as a first shooter. I wasn't aware you could make almost that as a second shooter. Being that I started in the field on my own, I am not accustomed to how many of these things run. Thank you for your kind wishes too.

[zagiace]

keep on keeping on.
Well Said.
I would suggest you keep looking. If you are looking to do your own weddings then the PPA costs and insurance are going to be there any way. But, any studio who values their photographers at only minimum wage is not going to teach you much other then dealing with people the day of the event.
Talk with other photographers in your area and try to get assisting or second shooter jobs to learn the trade.
If it is experience you really want I personally I would offer to do it for free rather then get paid $8 an hour. Once you are paid $8 an hour you have applied that amount of value to your work. At least if you did it for free you can say this is $800 worth of work you are offering for free.

[amfoto1]

If they were offering to pay your PPA dues, your insurance, supply some backup equipment to augment what you already have, and perhaps give you a share of print sales or something like that to encourage you to do particularly good work... $8 hr. might be reasonable.

But they aren't and it doesn't sound like a very good offer to me.

Plus it sounds as if you have more experience and a better portfolio to show than most second shooters with kit cameras who get twice as much pay without the added costs of PPA dues and insurance.

I wouldn't be surprised if they ask you to sign an employment contract with a non-compete clause, too, which may or may not matter to you depending upon where you want to strike out on your own, or if you want to continue doing your own gigs on the side while you are in their employ.

If it were considered an internship and you got school credit for it, that might make the low pay a bit more palatable. But most internships I think the school would step in and tell the employer they had to cover the costs of any insurance and couldn't require the student to pay $350 dues out of pocket before they could even start.

It's not uncommon in situations like this to give up your copyright to the employer. However, reading your description it wasn't entirely clear if you would even be able to show the images you shot on their behalf in your portfolio, as examples of your work. Even in most work-for-hire/2nd shooter situations, that's not an unreasonable thing for an employer to allow.

Overall, it sounds to me as if they are really trying to take advantage of your status as a student and you'd do a lot better financially topping up coffee cups over at Starbucks.

But, your market may be a lot different. So I'd suggest you discuss it with the professor who referred you, to see if he really thinks this is a reasonable offer or has any ideas that might make it worthwhile (like treating it as an internship), and to let him know why if you decide to walk away, and that you would be open to a more reasonable offer.

If, on the other hand, you do decide to go for the job or manage to work out something a bit more favorable, I'd sure want to see everything in writing and signed off on by all parties, so that everyone is totally clear on the details.

[S.Horton]

Will the employer prevent you from continuing to book your own weddings?

[Nicole Faith]

zagiace - thank you for the information. I understand what you are saying, but I am past the free stage I think. The first few weddings I shot were either free or under $300.00. I hope I have worked past that point. :)

If they were offering to pay your PPA dues, your insurance, supply some backup equipment to augment what you already have, and perhaps give you a share of print sales or something like that to encourage you to do particularly good work... $8 hr. might be reasonable. If it were considered an internship and you got school credit for it, that might make the low pay a bit more palatable. But most internships I think the school would step in and tell the employer they had to cover the costs of any insurance and couldn't require the student to pay $350 dues out of pocket before they could even start.

Exactly my thoughts - I would have taken the position right away if what you mentioned was offered, but I feel they just want me to step in, make money and leave. Most of which, I wouldn't see. There is a possibility that it could be put towards a credits - however, I only have 2 classes left in my degree - both of which are courses that are required. So I wouldn't need to do an internship at this point. I wanted to in previous years, but nothing came up.

S.Horton - no, actually. This is the one very positive thing going right now. From the start I explained I already had a client base and had been working in the wedding field for over a year. I also explained my goal of owning my own business - the studio does not have an issue with this and will let me book my own gigs. I was surprised to say the least. I am not sure how I would balance that - who am I really advertising at that point, you know?

[gravy graffix]

yeah im REALLY surprised they didnt want to make you sign a NON Compete....

they stripped all your other rights... why not that too??