Windows 7 Thoughts?.....

[mammothcar1]

Hi all,

You may remember me from previous posts asking about MB or MBP.
Well short story. My GF bought me a MB for Christmas. ( Awesome GF!!! I know!!!). But the kicker was no firewire. So back goes the MB.
I tell her lets wait to see what comes out of Macworld.

Well, we all know the answer to that. Not much.

Now, this isn't to start a Windows vs. Mac bash thread. I was ready to dive in to buy a MBP. But after researching more, Apple has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth with regards to their insistance of limited availabilty of ports and lack of including up and coming technology, ( BluRay for ex.).


And I am totally frustrated on the Windows side of the coin as well. You can buy a loaded Acer with inputs, outputs out the wazoo, and with BluRay, but try to make the system operate as one big happy family....well forget about it!



Well my rant is over. Thanks for letting me vent.

On to my question. Any thoughts on the new Windows 7. I know it's to early to tell how well it will really work, but those of you out there who have an opinion on this new operating system feel free to chime in.

Thanks ladies and gents.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/

The video gives a preview of 7

[stevo8]

Hi all,

You may remember me from previous posts asking about MB or MBP.
Well short story. My GF bought me a MB for Christmas. ( Awesome GF!!! I know!!!). But the kicker was no firewire. So back goes the MB.
I tell her lets wait to see what comes out of Macworld.

Well, we all know the answer to that. Not much.

Now, this isn't to start a Windows vs. Mac bash thread. I was ready to dive in to buy a MBP. But after researching more, Apple has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth with regards to their insistance of limited availabilty of ports and lack of including up and coming technology, ( BluRay for ex.).


And I am totally frustrated on the Windows side of the coin as well. You can buy a loaded Acer with inputs, outputs out the wazoo, and with BluRay, but try to make the system operate as one big happy family....well forget about it!



Well my rant is over. Thanks for letting me vent.

On to my question. Any thoughts on the new Windows 7. I know it's to early to tell how well it will really work, but those of you out there who have an opinion on this new operating system feel free to chime in.

Thanks ladies and gents.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/

The video gives a preview of 7


Well lets hope for the best as I would love to use a pc again without wanting to huck it out the window.

My take on it though is that no matter what you buy, theres always gonna be something new right around the corner. So since you already know the mac is a solid performer with a great OS (and snow leopard coming soon) Why not minimize the risks and just get the mac. If not having ports on the model your looking at is a deal killer I find that kinda fickle since the OS, build quality etc are whats(or at least should be imo) the most important part of the computer. Or you could just get the MBP and have a FW800 port and be good. FW400 is dead anyways and if you have any FW400 devices you can just get and adapter since they will still work with FW800. Sure Blueray would be nice and such but you cant have everything you want all the time unfortunately.

[MaxxuM]

You know, they do make a 400 to 800 firewire adapters, right? Blu-ray burner adds a lot to cost and Apple didn't want to deal with a $300 rise in cost in addition to adding Blu-ray support to the DVD player and licensing problems.

Like Stevo said, there is no perfect anything so pick what you think is right for you. I went Apple because I got tired of Vista and OS X has been rock solid for me.

As far as Windows 7 - anything could happen. It will be built 'better' than Vista and some say it will be what Vista was supposed to be. As a Microsoft Developer I have Windows 7 (Dev release) and so far I like it. I'm not over impressed and it isn't like going from Windows 95 to XP - it feels like Vista Version 2 bigger badder and more stable. I'm far more excited about OS X Snow Leopard because it will add Exchange support, smaller more robust kernel, streamlined code, fix memory leaks, go full 64bit and will get rid of old unnecessary code.

[Zepher]

I am getting Windows 7 as soon as it comes out. I am going to get the Beta tomorrow and play with it.

[Faolan]

I've currently run Windows 7 M3 build and will be getting the Windows 7 Beta 1 build shortly. Windows 7 M3 was stable even if a few features was missing however it was rock solid on the system I installed it on. It was faster, leaner and generally more responsive than either XP or Vista 64.

One thing that people will love or loathe is the new taskbar where it's combined open applications with the quick launch icons. ti's not immediately obvious which is open or waiting to be launched from a glance...

However despite all the changes this is still Vista just a highly tuned and repainted Vista ;)

It's surprising that M$ has produced such a strong OS that's technically in Beta in that it's almost production ready in most cases.

Forgot to add this link:

http://www.winsupersite.com/Default.asp

That gives a good overview of what's new and reviews the changes.

[mammothcar1]

Thanks for the replies!

This is what I like about this forum. I can get both points of view with very valid reasons for either case, without the post going downhill! Thanks!

MaxxuM- you had mentioned OS X Snow Leopard. When is that expected to be released?
I can afford to wait,.. as long as my circa 2002 Dell doesn't give up the ghost.

'

[MaxxuM]

MaxxuM- you had mentioned OS X Snow Leopard. When is that expected to be released?
I can afford to wait,.. as long as my circa 2002 Dell doesn't give up the ghost.

'

It will come out this year but Apple is really tight lipped about such things. My guess is that it will be released with the announcement of the new iMac or Mac Pro and it will likely be announced by Jobs.

I have friends that work 'in the field' and they tell me OpenCL is already being working on at Adobe and to expect the next version of Adobe products (CS5) to take advantage of it. Apple took the hit with CS4, but let us not forget that Adobe puts out a new suite every 18 months; it's like clockwork. CS5 will be around before you know it and the CS4 nightmare will (hopefully) be a forgotten memory.

[mammothcar1]

Thanks MaxxuM!

[HankScorpio]

On to my question. Any thoughts on the new Windows 7. I know it's to early to tell how well it will really work, but those of you out there who have an opinion on this new operating system feel free to chime in.
Running the Beta at the moment and it does seem noticeably faster than Vista 64 bit. I've had no issues with Vista across 5 machines but I'm going to jump all over it when it's released.

[MaxxuM]

Running the Beta at the moment and it does seem noticeably faster than Vista 64 bit. I've had no issues with Vista across 5 machines but I'm going to jump all over it when it's released.

I'm still a bit worried. Vista, back before RC1 was pretty fast too - so fast that Microsoft started touting it as the 'gamers' OS. As time neared RC1 they started adding more code (features, fixes, backwards compatibility...) and before they knew it the clean OS was filled with way too much complexity. I'm sure it will be better programed, but it actually be 'better' ... we'll just have to see.

[GregSteer]

Stick with what you've got, wait until the end of the year / early next, now is not a very good time to be buying a new system, unfortunately I had no choice but to buy a new lappy as I'm going travelling and Vista x64 will have to do me.

[HSK]

So far, what i've heard about it have been positive, i did try to get the beta, but the servers are busy.

[Zepher]

Windows 7 is running like dog crap on one of our machines, Pentium D 3.0Ghz Dual Core, 2GB ram, X1950Pro.

I am going to try it on my main machine this weekend. I just need to unplug all the drives in my machine (11 of them) and slap in the 250 that is sitting on my desk.

[Bobster]

bugger
Thanks for your interest in the Windows 7 Beta. The volume has been phenomenal -- we’re in the process of adding more servers to handle the demand. We’re sorry for the delay and we’ll re-post the Beta as soon as we can ensure a quality download experience.

[HankScorpio]

Well, after several hours of playing.......... It's Vista but with some of the rubbish removed to make it faster. It is noticeable faster on my ULV Core 2 Duo based laptop (64bit version). Vista was workable but a bit jerky with Aero on due to the crappy onboard intel extreme graphics (pah, extreme my a***) on this machine and 7 is nice and fluid with all the fluffy things on.

I'd say that if you're holding on to XP for whatever reason then you'll probably hate this as much as Vista which I personally don't understand as It's been no trouble and a vast improvement over XP for me (once configured properly). If you have and like Vista then this is probably going to be an expensive service pack. There are improvements over Vista and I'll probably upgrade on release but it's not a big leap forward as far as I can see.

[mammothcar1]

Thanks for the feedback all.
It's nice to get some unbiased feedback.
Looks like, at some point in the near, far off future I'll probably spring for the MBP, or iMac.
In the mean time, it's kind of fun trying to get things done on my 2002 Dell.
As my old boss would say, 'it builds character'.

[overclicker]

bugger


You can get the ISOs ok, just not the keys atm...
http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/windows-7-publi.html

With a key, it'll run till August 1, without a key you can run w7 up to 120 days w/out activation:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9011482

[GregSteer]

You can get the ISOs ok, just not the keys atm...
http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/windows-7-publi.html

With a key, it'll run till August 1, without a key you can run w7 up to 120 days w/out activation:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9011482


That'll do me for a quick test, off travelling in 6 weeks anyway :)

[Bobster]

oh well, just have to wait 2 days and 6 hours :)

[HSK]

GOt myself a key now, but I'll download it later (as my peak time starts in 30 mins)

[strmrdr]

playing around with it in vmware
not to bad and I kinda like the new interface.
I hated the vista interface.

[HankScorpio]

I kinda like the new interface.
I hated the vista interface.
But they're the same except the taskbar is transparent :confused:

[LuckyRobJ]

Windows 7 is still Windows. Vista and XP are still just Windows, so was 95 and (to a lesser extent) NT. They all more-or-less work, but Microsoft is stuck with their backwards compatibility requirements and can't seem to break the mold from an OS that was developed in the 80's.

OS X is unix and vastly superior because of this. Very optimized for their hardware and very few layers of API to deal with. Yes, this means software may not run on older versions of the OS, but Apple decided that backwards compatibility is not that important and they're right. Who here needs backwards compatibility back to 1990? Especially the case when they offer their OS fairly cheap so anyone can buy and easily upgrade.

For a business (because I'm sure no home users really care about backwards compatibility more than a few years), if your software is that old, and you rely on it, chances are you should be able to afford to upgrade it to current technology.

So unless MS takes a serious deviation in their architecture, I'm not expecting much from Windows 7. Now if they were to say that W7 was built from the ground up around current hardware and it was natively 64 bit, then I'd be interested. But still, it's one company making these decisions versus a worldwide community of Unix users that keep Unix running well.

[DennisW1]

Hi all,

On to my question. Any thoughts on the new Windows 7. I know it's to early to tell how well it will really work, but those of you out there who have an opinion on this new operating system feel free to chime in.

Thanks ladies and gents.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/

The video gives a preview of 7


My opinion of Windows 7 is the same as it has been of every version of windows since Windows 95, wait and see.

Early releases of Microsoft's OS are traditionally plauged with problems, security holes, incompatibilities with existing hardware and software that frustrate people who are eager to upgrade to the "latest and greatest" when their current system and OS are working just fine for them.

Windows 7 does seem to promise less overhead and faster operation with fewer upgrade headaches as compared to Vista, but then again Microsoft has promised us this with every new release of Windows and so far it's been the same mess every time.

Also, if your current OS, be it W2000, XP, or Vista is doing the job for you then what's the hurry to complicate your life for the next month or so updating drivers (assuming they're even yet available), resolving conflicts, configuring the new OS, and learning new operations? And that assumes no problems raise their head during the "upgrade", something that Microsoft's products are (in)famous for.

Like I said, wait and see.

[DennisW1]

So unless MS takes a serious deviation in their architecture, I'm not expecting much from Windows 7. Now if they were to say that W7 was built from the ground up around current hardware and it was natively 64 bit, then I'd be interested. But still, it's one company making these decisions versus a worldwide community of Unix users that keep Unix running well.


They didn't, and it isn't.......

[HankScorpio]

Windows 7 is still Windows. Vista and XP are still just Windows, so was 95 and (to a lesser extent) NT. They all more-or-less work, but Microsoft is stuck with their backwards compatibility requirements and can't seem to break the mold from an OS that was developed in the 80's.
XP was a massive departure. The underlying core elements are completely different to the previous versions. It only runs older software under emulation (things MS called shims). Vista again was a huge change, altering the whole driver system to a much more UNIX like modular system. This was the main reason why so many devices wouldn't work with it, because manufacturers were slow to create new drivers or just wouldn't do it. It was that which caused so many people to hate Vista, because they had to replace their old printer, completely ignoring the fact that it was a huge leap in performance and security over XP once manufacturers got into gear and wrote decent drivers.

To say Windows 7 or even Vista is even remotely similar to 95 underneath in anything but the name is untrue.

[grego]

However despite all the changes this is still Vista just a highly tuned and repainted Vista ;)


It's a improved version of the Vista OS. Funny that there are many out there that bash Vista, and like Win 7 so far, but its pretty much the same thing with some tweaks. And a lot of drivers work now with Win 7 because Vista has been out a while and many of those issues have been solved.

Go figure how perception can change so much...

[rklepper]

This is one of the things that drove me away from Microsoft products. They have 180 million copies of Vista (Microsofts advertised statistics). Rather than take care of those customers and make Vista work properly, they abandon it and try a new system in hopes that more people will buy it. Makes you feel good about giving them your money, eh?

[grego]

This is one of the things that drove me away from Microsoft products. They have 180 million copies of Vista (Microsofts advertised statistics). Rather than take care of those customers and make Vista work properly, they abandon it and try a new system in hopes that more people will buy it. Makes you feel good about giving them your money, eh?

It works well after SP1 was applied, but hey, XP sucked a lot until SP1 and then eventually SP2 came out.

I think Windows 7 was what MS aimmed for, but with all their delays, they cut some things out and got Vista. With that said, its better if they release a newer improved version if there is such a stigma about it. The drivers the 3rd party drivers have pretty much been fixed so the platform now will see less issues.

Apple has a quicker release schedule if you want to take a look with their OS'. Either way, a company's goal is to make the biggest profit for their shareholders, no matter what they do.

[rklepper]

It works well after SP1 was applied, but hey, XP sucked a lot until SP1 and then eventually SP2 came out.

I think Windows 7 was what MS aimmed for, but with all their delays, they cut some things out and got Vista. With that said, its better if they release a newer improved version if there is such a stigma about it. The drivers the 3rd party drivers have pretty much been fixed so the platform now will see less issues.

Apple has a quicker release schedule if you want to take a look with their OS'. Either way, a company's goal is to make the biggest profit for their shareholders, no matter what they do.

My Dad had a saying. "If you accept second rate you will continue to live in a second rate world" I think that even holds for companies that are supposed to sell products to people and sell products that work. If we accept it just because that is the way it is, well then...

[grego]

My Dad had a saying. "If you accept second rate you will continue to live in a second rate world" I think that even holds for companies that are supposed to sell products to people and sell products that work. If we accept it just because that is the way it is, well then...

Well Vista works now. So i'm not sure how you are living in a second rate world if you are using Vista currently. But I think it's been proven early adopters have issues with newer software, especially Operating Systems.

It can be better, but it does seem like Windows 7 is getting it right and doing better for the future customers in Windows 7, as evident by all the good reviews the beta is receiving.

Heck, Canon had a bit of a muck up with the 1D MKIII. It still is perceived to have issues. I'm not sure how much is true and how much is not, but it'll never escape those issues. Some say Canon has just choose to ignore them and people have given up raising their voice.

But hey, I was using XP for a while. I didn't decide to use Vista until about a couple months ago. You aren't forced to buy anything by them. And with 7, I'm not forced to upgrade. I can try it out and see how I like it, but I can stay where I am at if i'm happy with it.

I would say Adobe with PS CS4 is forcing people, if you own a 5D MKII and want to shoot RAW, since CS3 will not support the RAW files. that's uncool, or Apple who limits useful apps on their iPhone app store because it competes with its own (even if the competition is better).

Hey, we pay for text messages when they don't cost the phone provider a thing since it passes on the data networks. But people are willing to pay montly for that ability.

Considering those things, I do not feel cheated by Windows compared ot some other areas.

[Moppie]

I was wondering how different, or advanced Windows 7 would be.
To hear it is little more than an updated Vista is actually quite refreshing.

It means I don't have to worry about having to upgrade to it, and I can just keep on using Vista, which so far is the best OS I have ever used.
Certainly blows XP away, and I find it far easier to understand than OS-X.







This is one of the things that drove me away from Microsoft products. They have 180 million copies of Vista (Microsofts advertised statistics). Rather than take care of those customers and make Vista work properly, they abandon it and try a new system in hopes that more people will buy it. Makes you feel good about giving them your money, eh?


Sorry Doc, but Vista does work, and it works very well.

I have been running it for well over year with zero problems, and I have built several PC's all with Vista and all have zero problems.

[rklepper]

Well I guess that would explain why the IT dept at the college refuse to allow Vista on any of their computers. Hmmm. Oh well, I guess it is just one of the great debates.

[MaxxuM]

Well I guess that would explain why the IT dept at the college refuse to allow Vista on any of their computers. Hmmm. Oh well, I guess it is just one of the great debates.

As an IT professional I dread Vista. It is a pig to work with and is extremely fickle with professional infrastructure software/hardware platforms like RADIUS, Lightspeed, CA Security Suites and Norton Ghost just to name a few. Microsoft has been working for more than five years on XPs successor and I (and most MIS offices) think they failed businesses and organizations.

I just checked Active Directory Computers - we have 10,456 AD objects in my network, 6,789 are computers of which 950 are Vista machines. Now, looking at percentage of work orders created in CA 72% of work orders generated for computers were Vista related in the past 6 months. Vista has increased "time down", "hours spent debugging" and "percentage of open tickets open for more than 72 hours" in those same 6 months. Apple computers account for an additional 3,800 machines (not listed in objects but in DNS lists) and account for less than 2% of total work orders opened for computers. The most common problem reported with Apple computers are clogged desktops (kids putting hundreds of icons on the desktop) - the least reported is crashes. The two most common problems reported on PCs is hard drive failure and memory module failure and account for 88% of all work orders generated (the other 12% are printers, routers, switches and so on).

The numbers really speak for themselves in my case. I have friends that manage banking networks, very large school districts (20,000+ computer networks) and every single one has told me Vista has increased IT costs and decreased work flow.

For the regular home user most of these things are non-issues. So, when I hear people saying they have absolutly no Vista issues I belive them. However, what some of them seem to think is that if they have no problems people that do must be doing something wrong or just have 'bad luck'. The truth of the matter is that the majority of computer buyers are actually not personal, ther are professional (government, education and business) and they are reporting thousands of issues a month.

I really hope Windows 7 is different - but history says it likely will not be. It is pretty fast now, but it's a blank slate and has been in development for 7 years! Of course it is zippy right now. Just wait, they'll start adding more and more code for compatability, new hardware and those updates will start coming in... It will bloat and it will slow down. They REALLY need to get away from the Registry.

[HankScorpio]

.......It is a pig to work with and is extremely fickle with professional infrastructure software/hardware platforms like ........ Norton Ghost..........
Now don't go blaming Vista for the horrific travesty that is any Symantec product ;)

[lens pirate]

Had a Windows 7 test box up for a day now. Straight forward install, Gui is very simular to Vista, as had been mentioned. Vista drivers seem to work really well, so driver support for this BETA has been outstanding.

Seems rock solid running apps. I have been beating on CS3 and MS office, batch processing files, and generally hammering on this thing.

ZERO ISSUES.

Just in BETA I think it is the best O/S Microsoft has ever released. Much better GUI than MACs which I find seriously stupid.

[Moppie]

Well I guess that would explain why the IT dept at the college refuse to allow Vista on any of their computers. Hmmm. Oh well, I guess it is just one of the great debates.

The of percentage of business, schools and other oganistaions actually running a current generation OS is very small.

It has very little to do with the abilities of any particular OS, and more to do with the costs involved in changing, fear of change, potential for problems, compatibility with old software, hardware etc.

Purchasing anything at an enterprise level involves a lot more than just how good the product it is. That is as true for a stapler, or vehicle fleet as it is for an operating system.




Now, looking at percentage of work orders created in CA 72% of work orders generated for computers were Vista related in the past 6 months. Vista has increased "time down", "hours spent debugging" and "percentage of open tickets open for more than 72 hours" in those same 6 months. The two most common problems reported on PCs is hard drive failure and memory module failure and account for 88% of all work orders generated (the other 12% are printers, routers, switches and so on).




Now hang on, your saying that you have lots of tickets from Vista machines, but that most of the problems with PC's have nothing to do with the OS and simply hardware failures?

That is nothing more than bad reporting and twisting bad statistics to meet your own ends.


Are your problems really with Vista, or with lack of training and experiance with it?
Or perhaps lack of compatibility with network software from other vendors?

This is one reason why many organisations shy away from a current generation OS. It takes time to train IT staff on it, it takes time to gather experiance with it, and no one knows what sort of support there might be in terms of software and driver updates for other applications and hardware needed to run the business.



Stop blaming Microsoft for your own and other peoples problems.
Or at least wait until Windows 7 is fully released, then you bash that and praise Vista for how well it works because you will be familiar with it.

[MaxxuM]

Now hang on, your saying that you have lots of tickets from Vista machines, but that most of the problems with PC's have nothing to do with the OS and simply hardware failures?

That is nothing more than bad reporting and twisting bad statistics to meet your own ends.

Are your problems really with Vista, or with lack of training and experiance with it?
Or perhaps lack of compatibility with network software from other vendors?

This is one reason why many organisations shy away from a current generation OS. It takes time to train IT staff on it, it takes time to gather experiance with it, and no one knows what sort of support there might be in terms of software and driver updates for other applications and hardware needed to run the business.

Stop blaming Microsoft for your own and other peoples problems.
Or at least wait until Windows 7 is fully released, then you bash that and praise Vista for how well it works because you will be familiar with it.

Ahh, I see what I did there. Here, let me correct the one word I typed wrong – and to clarify. Here is what I said.

Now, looking at percentage of work orders created in CA 72% of work orders generated for software were Vista related in the past 6 months. Vista has increased "time down", "hours spent debugging" and "percentage of open tickets open for more than 72 hours" in those same 6 months. The two most common hardware problems reported on PCs is hard drive failure and memory module failure and account for 88% of all work orders generated (the other 12% are printers, routers, switches and so on).

The point was, that Vista's software problems, though smaller than total hardware problems still account for more time spend on tickets (percentage wise) to other computer problems (like I said, this excludes all other issues with devices). For example, if there is a bad hard drive it is simply replaced withing an hour, a new image placed on the drive and it is up and running. Vista problems remain open on average much longer.

Yes, you're right in a couple of respects. Yes, several of our problems are with third party vendors and incompatibility (despite guarantees to the contrary). I mentioned a few above. Another issue is of course being in a government controlled institution. We get what we get - and that means being at the mercy of bureaucrats. We have a vote, but it ends up being more of a recommendation.

Now, blaming Microsoft... I did not mean to put it all on them and I'm sorry if you took it as such. What I am saying is they have had more than 6 years of study, development and deployment to work the kinks out. Last I looked there were many thousands of issues posted for Vista at MS knowledge base - again, par for the course.

I started out with HP3000 & AIX, moved to Novell and eventually to Microsoft and through those years I have seen a good bit. Of all those, HP 3000's, Novell networks and even OS X, Windows has been a constant thorn. That does not mean I hate them - they just have alot of problems at the enterprise level. I know several HP 3000 machines that have litterally been running for 10 years with hundreds of users using them every day without a hitch! AIX machines that controll Wal-Mart distrobution hubs with millions of products going through them a day... Well, I digress. Microsoft Windows has had a mixed history of failure and success. Training for my MCSA was arduous dispite my already having my A+, Network+, CCNA, CNA, Dell Certifications, AIX Certified. Though I could pass the test, it really didn't get into practice like the other tests did.

I do not hate Microsoft - I just don't like Vista much and I'm not alone. I think Windows 7 will be what Vista promissed. It more reminds me of Windows ME in that respect. I use Vista - I'm using it right now in fact. Maybe it is because I come from a UNIX/Novell world that my expectations for the enterprise are just much higher. In any case, I like their sever lines including mail and security - I think those are top notch.

[Faolan]

Got Beta 1 last night and it's running very smoothly, slightly faster than the M3 build but not really noticeable unless you're looking for it. The Snaps feature is surprisingly useful on a single monitor but less so for dual monitor rigs. Also the HDMI video output is a lot better than Vista and far more reliable.

Installation is faster than Vista but uses the same interface. Whilst the Windows experience is very similar to Vista there is a lot of tweaks to graphics, the interfaces and how things interact. For example Aero Snaps, Jump Lists and also mobile devices Device Stage all make for a cleaner experience.

Also this installation is running a lot smoother than Vista with 1Gb of memory and takes less memory as standard. I can't do a apples to apples comparison due to one being 64bit and the other 32bit.

[grego]

Well I guess that would explain why the IT dept at the college refuse to allow Vista on any of their computers. Hmmm. Oh well, I guess it is just one of the great debates.

Education tends to be one of the last places to upgrade along with business. You have to take into consideration the hardware they currently have.

At least at my workplace, we have pretty crappy computers, and mostly old CRT's. Fairly sad, when a lot of work depends on the ability to spot details on and off our screen at work. I actually brought in an extra monitor I had for instance. I like where I work, but its an example of old hardware not getting upgraded. Heck, when I first got there, it had XP but was running on 256mb of RAM. it was slow as crap. And they gave me 756, the motherboard's max. Hey, UCLA's e-mail system is crap. Luckily they allow you to re-direct it to another system like gmail.

Vista works if you have decent hardware that fits the type of hardware you can get these days, but of course newer software will have issues with old hardware.

Most computers do not need (at my workplace that is arguable) a great amount of RAM.

But, to give you an idea just how bad some companies are, I do work with movie studios. A good amount of them are still on Windows 95 and 98 or using super old Office.

We always have to downsave our Office 07 files because most of them are not even near the 2009.

Food for thought....

[CaptainK]

Arriving at this party very late, but my 2 pennies worth...

It's very easy to blame Microsoft for bloated software. Now, working previously as tech support, managing my own projects, trainer and now self employed consultant, I've had my fair share of rants at Microsoft, but unfortunately, there are issues outside of Microsoft's control.

Firstly, they have to cater for legacy hardware and software.

Application software and drivers don't have to be signed/verfied by Microsoft (at least not in the the 32 bit versions in the case of drivers) in order for it to be installed on XP or Vista. If it did, how would you guys all feel about having to upgrade all your hardware and software every time a new major OS was released. I hear people complaining about having to upgrade to CS4 so that they can use RAW images from the 5DmkII. Now imagine regular upgrades for hardware and software so that MS can keep it's software streamlined and bug-free.

Half the problems are as much to do with poorly written software, as it is to do with the OS. To give an example, I used to work in the IT department for a law firm. We bought some practice management software which included a web interface for some of the simple client enquiry and time recording functions.

One day, parts of the the web interface simply stopped working. The reason? The vendor had used a security loophole in Internet Explorer 6 to make certain functions work. MS issued a security patch and the software broke. How was this really Microsoft's fault? The vendor should have realised that MS would get round eventually to plugging the loophole.

Another much reported problem is that the software for the HP Colour LaserJet 2840 doesn't work properly except for the printing. None of the scanning and faxing functions work in Vista. They work on my XP machines (x2) perfectly. Turns out that the HP software doesn't like my Wacom Intuos3 tablet in Vista but has no objections in XP. I certainly don't blame Microsoft for that.

IMO, virtualisation will sort out a lot of the issues that people face at the moment with regards to bloated software, speed, etc. I won't go into the reasoning because we'll be here for hours.

Suffice to say, that there's more to it than simply blaming one company for virtually every problem with our PCs.

[CaptainK]

Oh, and whoever mentioned scrapping the registry... you ain't wrong, brother!

[davidcrebelxt]

This is one of the things that drove me away from Microsoft products. They have 180 million copies of Vista (Microsofts advertised statistics). Rather than take care of those customers and make Vista work properly, they abandon it and try a new system in hopes that more people will buy it. Makes you feel good about giving them your money, eh?

If we take a look at they're average release schedule:

windows 95 to windows 98, then XP came out in 2001... we're looking at about every 3 years.

XP to Vista was the odd one out.

Late 2009 to early 2010 for a release isn't giving up on Vista... its getting back to their planned release cycle.

[FZ1]

The best thing about Windows 7 is that it will be optimized for Solid State Disk (SSD's) hard drives which should be really gaining popularity around the time of the official release of the OS.

[MaxxuM]

Arriving at this party very late, but my 2 pennies worth...

It's very easy to blame Microsoft for bloated software. Now, working previously as tech support, managing my own projects, trainer and now self employed consultant, I've had my fair share of rants at Microsoft, but unfortunately, there are issues outside of Microsoft's control.

Firstly, they have to cater for legacy hardware and software.

Application software and drivers don't have to be signed/verfied by Microsoft (at least not in the the 32 bit versions in the case of drivers) in order for it to be installed on XP or Vista. If it did, how would you guys all feel about having to upgrade all your hardware and software every time a new major OS was released. I hear people complaining about having to upgrade to CS4 so that they can use RAW images from the 5DmkII. Now imagine regular upgrades for hardware and software so that MS can keep it's software streamlined and bug-free.

Half the problems are as much to do with poorly written software, as it is to do with the OS. To give an example, I used to work in the IT department for a law firm. We bought some practice management software which included a web interface for some of the simple client enquiry and time recording functions.

One day, parts of the the web interface simply stopped working. The reason? The vendor had used a security loophole in Internet Explorer 6 to make certain functions work. MS issued a security patch and the software broke. How was this really Microsoft's fault? The vendor should have realised that MS would get round eventually to plugging the loophole.

Another much reported problem is that the software for the HP Colour LaserJet 2840 doesn't work properly except for the printing. None of the scanning and faxing functions work in Vista. They work on my XP machines (x2) perfectly. Turns out that the HP software doesn't like my Wacom Intuos3 tablet in Vista but has no objections in XP. I certainly don't blame Microsoft for that.

IMO, virtualisation will sort out a lot of the issues that people face at the moment with regards to bloated software, speed, etc. I won't go into the reasoning because we'll be here for hours.

Suffice to say, that there's more to it than simply blaming one company for virtually every problem with our PCs.

I don't want to pick apart your entire post so I'll try to just address the key points. OK, your main gist centers on Microsoft's decision to keep Windows an open platform for developers. It worked to their advantage early on and it allowed Microsoft to dominate the market. Today it is hindering them in many ways (you mentioned a few). By allowing their operating system to be altered by unsigned programs/code, giving the masses all the dll's and SDK's you set yourself up to be two things, popularity and unpredictable code/OS manipulation. When you have such an open, popular and manipulate-able OS you're going to have to constantly do damage-control to fix the plethora of parts that will be breaking on a daily basis, e.g. you fix one thing and another thing (other software) breaks.

Is this Microsoft's fault? Yes, actually it is. They set up their OS model, they knew the flaws inherent in it and they continue to do it despite these facts. They have painted themselves into a corner with two simple words, backwards compatibility. By design, Windows is flawed because of this. Imagine if other technologies worked this way. What a mess things would be - it is wasteful and hinders forward development by keeping legacy code within the OS.

Your next point was verified/signed software/drivers - well, yes that is the best rought to go and it works to boot - well, better than open programming anyway. It is called proprietary or closed system and developers dislike it because it forces them to conform to the will (and bank) of Microsoft. That is why we still have 32bit Windows despite many years to 64bit development.

I'm not sure how virtualization will cure anything. UNIX has been using types of virtualization for many many years. It isn't a new thing - but full virtualization didn't really come to fruition in the PC market until about 2005 when Intel & AMD added VT to their processors. Oracle tried mass virtualization some time ago and it failed.

We shall see what Windows 7 brings - hopefully a little more structure and far fewer BSoD;)

[grego]

I don't want to pick apart your entire post so I'll try to just address the key points. OK, your main gist centers on Microsoft's decision to keep Windows an open platform for developers. It worked to their advantage early on and it allowed Microsoft to dominate the market. Today it is hindering them in many ways (you mentioned a few). By allowing their operating system to be altered by unsigned programs/code, giving the masses all the dll's and SDK's you set yourself up to be two things, popularity and unpredictable code/OS manipulation. When you have such an open, popular and manipulate-able OS you're going to have to constantly do damage-control to fix the plethora of parts that will be breaking on a daily basis, e.g. you fix one thing and another thing (other software) breaks.

Is this Microsoft's fault? Yes, actually it is. They set up their OS model, they knew the flaws inherent in it and they continue to do it despite these facts. They have painted themselves into a corner with two simple words, backwards compatibility. By design, Windows is flawed because of this. Imagine if other technologies worked this way. What a mess things would be - it is wasteful and hinders forward development by keeping legacy code within the OS.

Your next point was verified/signed software/drivers - well, yes that is the best rought to go and it works to boot - well, better than open programming anyway. It is called proprietary or closed system and developers dislike it because it forces them to conform to the will (and bank) of Microsoft. That is why we still have 32bit Windows despite many years to 64bit development.

I'm not sure how virtualization will cure anything. UNIX has been using types of virtualization for many many years. It isn't a new thing - but full virtualization didn't really come to fruition in the PC market until about 2005 when Intel & AMD added VT to their processors. Oracle tried mass virtualization some time ago and it failed.

We shall see what Windows 7 brings - hopefully a little more structure and far fewer BSoD;)

Have not seen a BSOD in years. But, for all the BSOD I have seen, I've seen the Mac OSx equivalent just as much in working with both systems.

http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter5/panic/images/panic_2.jpg

http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter5/panic/images/panic_3.jpg

What I have noticed is a pattern. Computers that are taken care of by people who know what they are doing don't see issues, whereas computers that have issues aren't treated well.


Backwards compatibility is good and bad thing. It's not a one sided story. Considering the costs of hardware and technology if companies were always forced to move up, they could not have as big of a budget for other activities/projects/etc. MS has done something right if they are able to keep so many people happy with XP. Vista was a good step forward and Win 7 looks like it is an even better OS, which is good, because you'd always want your next best thing to be better. Otherwise you failed.

[René Damkot]

I think you meant to link to an image of a Kernel Panic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Screen_of_Death#Kernel_panic

Had one of those lately, because of a RAM which wasn't seated properly...

[CaptainK]

I don't want to pick apart your entire post so I'll try to just address the key points. OK, your main gist centers on Microsoft's decision to keep Windows an open platform for developers. It worked to their advantage early on and it allowed Microsoft to dominate the market. Today it is hindering them in many ways (you mentioned a few). By allowing their operating system to be altered by unsigned programs/code, giving the masses all the dll's and SDK's you set yourself up to be two things, popularity and unpredictable code/OS manipulation. When you have such an open, popular and manipulate-able OS you're going to have to constantly do damage-control to fix the plethora of parts that will be breaking on a daily basis, e.g. you fix one thing and another thing (other software) breaks.

Is this Microsoft's fault? Yes, actually it is. They set up their OS model, they knew the flaws inherent in it and they continue to do it despite these facts. They have painted themselves into a corner with two simple words, backwards compatibility. By design, Windows is flawed because of this. Imagine if other technologies worked this way. What a mess things would be - it is wasteful and hinders forward development by keeping legacy code within the OS.

Your next point was verified/signed software/drivers - well, yes that is the best rought to go and it works to boot - well, better than open programming anyway. It is called proprietary or closed system and developers dislike it because it forces them to conform to the will (and bank) of Microsoft. That is why we still have 32bit Windows despite many years to 64bit development.

I'm not sure how virtualization will cure anything. UNIX has been using types of virtualization for many many years. It isn't a new thing - but full virtualization didn't really come to fruition in the PC market until about 2005 when Intel & AMD added VT to their processors. Oracle tried mass virtualization some time ago and it failed.

We shall see what Windows 7 brings - hopefully a little more structure and far fewer BSoD;)

I think you misunderstood kind of what I was getting at. There is no technical argument.

What I was getting at with regards to virtualisation was the sandboxing. Not sure if I'm using the right terminology. The ability to virtualise anything should theoretically allow developers to run software/drivers, in their own environment. Is sandboxing a better term?

Of course the Microsoft screwed up royally by not doing things the way you've said - these are arguments we had at my last 2 places and we all wisely nodded our heads in agreement.

The point is that we are where we are and multi-million pound/dollar companies don't take responsibility for the crap they write. Hardware companies for their drivers, software companies for the apps - Symantec anyone?

Not disagreeing with the points you've made, but it seems that the consumers are the ones who demand the openess. Unix/Linux based setups are to a certain extent closed shops to most people, probably because of a perceived lack of ease of use for the every day computer user. Hell, I started with CPM, programming in Cobol, Mumps amongst others. And as someone starting out in the world of IT, the world of IT was a pain in the ass.

I'm a trainer (just one of my hats) and have got inside the consumer's heads and the fact is that they like Windows. Sure everyone moans about it, but over the course of 20+ years in the industry, I've watched OS2, Warp, NewWave, NextSTEP BeOS, Gem and numerous other OSs and GUIs fall by the wayside.

Why?

Licencing, closed shops, petty internal squabbles, marketing men who should be flayed alive and people without the vision to drive things forward, and Microsoft's "vision" and "tactics".

Like it or not, Microsoft did a number on HP, Apple and various others; even though it had an inferior product.

Of course I'm not saying is Windows is superior - that would be stupid. And I'm not saying Microsoft is blameless. Of course the current state of affairs is Microsoft's fault - mostly.

My point was that some of the blame also lies with the wants (Economics tells us there is no such thing as needs) of the consumer and the wants of the hardware and application software industries.

While Microsoft has made more than it's fair share of mistakes from the technological standpoint, it has been doing so with view to preserving it's market share. It's the nature of the beast. I sometimes have to do things for my customers that I don't like because it's a kludge/botch job but it works and the customer is happy.

Without these kludges, there are major implications for businesses - costs that they couldn't manage.

Windows in it's current state (developmentwise with Windows 7) is kind of like a halfway house between the Apple's closed shop and the free for all that is the Linux world.

Microsoft could quite easily have said that this is it - no more legacy crap with WIndows 7 and we go fully 64 bit. But even the likes of Adobe sem to be sticking primarily with 32 bit with the new CS4 (Photoshop being the exception?).

BSODs... what are they? Not seen one in ages - last saw one 6 months ago caused by the malware that is XPAntiVirus.

Dear god, it feels like I'm back in the basement with a bunch of techies arguing over the merits VB and Delphi or discussing .... actually I'll stop since I don't really think we disagree on that much.

[MaxxuM]

For those that may want to install Windows 7 on their Mac, the new build seems to run fine. The first developer build froze on me a few times and crashed. This one seems to be more stable and dare I say, faster than XP. I have performed installs several programs including Microsoft Office 2007 Professional Plus, have deployed it on or Microsoft Network and setup Exchange all with relative ease and stability. The two things I currently have problems with is IE8Beta has frozen the Explorer a few times and Cntl-Alt -Delete does not help. It could be VMWare, but I have noticed issues with IE8 on regular machines too. The second problem I’m sure is VMWare; sound is choppy. It’s probably the VMWare sound device drivers. Install was straight forward – VMWare’s easy install actually worked so Windows 7 setup must be extremely similar to Vista ‘under the hood’ as well as visually. On my laptop Windows 7 runs slightly faster than XP but that is likely due to improved virtualization technologies – which means Windows 7 will likely have other VT features I haven’t seen yet (I really haven’t dug in yet).

Over-all, I’m not excited about Windows 7. Like OS 10.6, I will upgrade to Win7 for stability, speed and a few added features. Most everything I’ve seen so far is improvements on Vista and overall stability. The Taskbar is looking more and more like the Mac Dock I noticed and Gadgets are still IMO searching for their place in Windows. The pressing of buttons on the Taskbar reminds me of how LCD laptop screens look when you press them (taken from a movie/show?). All in all, this OS is far more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Ease of use has not been improved – though without the constant permission popup I at least didn’t get annoyed going to find those buried settings. I probably will not upgrade my personal computer’s Vista for the first year or so despite being able to get it for free via work. Once OS 10.6 comes out with Exchange support for Mail there will be very little reason for me to need Windows other than to render in After Effects or batch process while I use my Mac’s to do the real work.

Image 1 - After install.
Image 2 - Windows 7 is looking more and more familiar isn't it.

[Sauk]

Ok my take so far.....

My lightroom does act a little funny now that I am using windows 7. When I crop it takes my picture and rotates it 90 degrees to the right for whatever reason till I hit the enter button and it brings it back to normal.

CPU usage is WAYYYYY DOWN! and my memory usage is also wayyyyyy down! I mean way down from what it used to be which is also nice.

I like the new layout and I like the start bar much better.

[Faolan]

Hands up if people have seen the 'new' Windows 7 Gamma Calibration tool yet ;)

[Sauk]

Hands up if people have seen the 'new' Windows 7 Gamma Calibration tool yet ;)


no care to share?

[Bobster]

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/01/07/windows-7-calibrate-your-display

[MaxxuM]

Hands up if people have seen the 'new' Windows 7 Gamma Calibration tool yet ;)

Hey, isn't that guy from Media Center - is it actually the same too? lol good catch.