Canon's 1D Mk IV dilemma

[pieq314]

The 1D Mk IV will certainly be a full frame camera. Now the question is: what will its pixel count?

Canon can probably make it at 21 MP, and will most likely have a crop mode for higher fps rate (at 21 MP, dual Digic IV or V may not be fast enough to process the data at 10 fps, but can probably do 8 or 9 fps). This will be a killer camera: it has all the features of the 1Ds cameras (AF system, build quality, etc) and does sports at the same time (that is, merging 1D and 1Ds and still call it 1D).

But this is also the problem: where does the 1Ds stand? With such a 1D Mk IV, who would buy 1Ds Mk III/IV? And Canon has to price the 1D Mk IV around $4500, so that is $3500 loss in income for Canon (but of course great for us). Now that Nikon can also make nice cameras (unlike the D2 days), Canon may be forced to make 1D Mk IV this way.

What are your thoughts?

[Anke]

The 1D Mk IV will certainly be a full frame camera. Now the question is: what will its pixel count?

Canon can probably make it at 21 MP, and will most likely have a crop mode for higher fps rate (at 21 MP, dual Digic IV or V may not be fast enough to process the data at 10 fps, but can probably do 8 or 9 fps). This will be a killer camera: it has all the features of the 1Ds cameras (AF system, build quality, etc) and does sports at the same time (that is, merging 1D and 1Ds and still call it 1D).

But this is also the problem: where does the 1Ds stand? With such a 1D Mk IV, who would buy 1Ds Mk III/IV? And Canon has to price the 1D Mk IV around $4500, so that is $3500 loss in income for Canon (but of course great for us). Now that Nikon can also make nice cameras (unlike the D2 days), Canon may be forced to make 1D Mk IV this way.

What are your thoughts?

What makes you think it will be "certainly" a full-frame? I'm betting on 1.3x for 1D and 1.0 for 1Ds.

[pieq314]

What makes you think it will be "certainly" a full-frame? I'm betting on 1.3x for 1D and 1.0 for 1Ds.

Nikon's D3 (direct competitor for 1D) is full frame. With 70% larger sensor, D3 can collect more photons and claim to have better ISO performance. Canon must fight back in the ISO arena, so Canon has to increase the sensor size to level the battle ground.

[TopGear1Ds]

Canon will never 1Ds resolution/sensor size in a $4500 camera. Nikon doesn't do it either. Sure the D3 is FF, but it's only 12.1MP the D3x is the real 1Ds competitor, and it costs $8000

[AdamJL]

If it's Full Frame, the camera does not need to go beyond 16mp.

use the gapless microlens trick and other bells and whistles in the newer 5D II and 50D and you've got a camera that I guarantee will outperform the 5D II in low light.

16mp FF, with 10mp 1.3 crop?
10fps, clean ISOs up to 6400, and I wouldn't care what Nikon brings out. This would be a freaking beast.

[FlyingPhotog]

Canon will never 1Ds resolution/sensor size in a $4500 camera.

You're right...

Instead, they put it in a $2700 camera. The 5DMkII... ;)

[constrict]

You're right...

Instead, they put it in a $2700 camera. The 5DMkII... ;)

pwnt.

[TopGear1Ds]

I think you know what I meant... The 5D II is not a 1D.

[pieq314]

If it's Full Frame, the camera does not need to go beyond 16mp.

use the gapless microlens trick and other bells and whistles in the newer 5D II and 50D and you've got a camera that I guarantee will outperform the 5D II in low light.

16mp FF, with 10mp 1.3 crop?
10fps, clean ISOs up to 6400, and I wouldn't care what Nikon brings out. This would be a freaking beast.

It will need to have 17MP to have the same pixel density (that is, same "reach") as the 1D Mk III. I see this as the minimum pixel count it will have to have. Otherwise, 1D3 users will be unhappy of losing "reach" after upgrading.

Based on 50D's fps rate, I estimate that dual digic IV can process 10 fps for 18-19 MP. Well, that is not too far away from 21 MP. It will still make people wonder if the extra 2-3 MP is worth the extra cost of 1Ds Mk III.

[pieq314]

You're right...

Instead, they put it in a $2700 camera. The 5DMkII... ;)

I think the 5D Mk II is cutting into 1Ds mk III's market. I feel Canon had no choice but to make 5D Mk II a 21-MP camera because it knows Sony was making the 24.5-MP camera.

[jacuff]

I think the 5D Mk II is cutting into 1Ds mk III's market. I feel Canon had no choice but to make 5D Mk II a 21-MP camera because it knows Sony was making the 24.5-MP camera.

You think so? I was never in the market for the 1Ds Mark III, so when I bought a 5D Mark II, they didn't lose another 1Ds Mark III purchaser. Instead they gained a 5D Mark II purchaser. That's probably how it is with most of us that own a 5D Mark II. Now if the 5D Mark II came out first and then the 1Ds Mark III, your reason would be better supported.

[pieq314]

You think so? I was never in the market for the 1Ds Mark III, so when I bought a 5D Mark II, they didn't lose another 1Ds Mark III purchaser. Instead they gained a 5D Mark II purchaser. That's probably how it is with most of us that own a 5D Mark II. Now if the 5D Mark II came out first and then the 1Ds Mark III, your reason would be better supported.

You probably would buy 5D Mk II even if it does not have the 1Ds Mk III's pixel count. At lower pixel count (such as 16 MP), each pixel would have higher image quality (sharper pixels, lower ISO noise). But then, Canon will lose the pixel war, which is bad again.

[Natural Imagez]

1d III may go 12-15 mp dual digic 4 and 10 fps, 1ds III will still be the 26 mp dual digic 4, slower fps but will incorporate HD video :)

[jacuff]

1d III may go 12-15 mp dual digic 4 and 10 fps, 1ds III will still be the 26 mp dual digic 4, slower fps but will incorporate HD video :)

I think you mean IV... 1D III and 1Ds III are already out. :)

[pieq314]

1d III may go 12-15 mp dual digic 4 and 10 fps, 1ds III will still be the 26 mp dual digic 4, slower fps but will incorporate HD video :)

12-15MP for full frame? That will make 1D4 having less "reach" than the 1D3.

[fensterbme]

I don't think there will be a Mark IV anything, it's bad luck in Asia. They will likley go right to five...

Secondly, who gives a rip.. (somewhat playing devil's advocate), the pros aren't going to likley change systems in any bulk if Canon is at a technical disadvantage for a while. I agree that Canon is likley to upgrade things but I'm not totally convienced that they will release something totally new at PMA in the spring. I think your likely to see something later in the year... I could see something possibly like a MkIIIn that would be an upgrade to the MkIII's but not really a fully new camera. I also know a few sports shooters who like the 1.3 crop factor as the added range is kinda nice...

I think something that I find particularly funny about POTN and DPReview forums is that you have tons of gear heads who concern themselves too much with gear and not nearly enough with how to use it. It's been said more than once that audiophiles listen to stereo's not music, and I think the same could be said for a lot of camera freaks... they look at camera's and nit pick spec sheets while completely failing to create amazing images. I used to sit and think a lot more about camera gear, but at some point I realized that my clients care about solid images and don't care how technically I get it done.

[Natural Imagez]

12-15MP for full frame? That will make 1D4 having less "reach" than the 1D3.

yes i mean the new 1dIV and 1.3 crop still may go to 12-15 mp, and the 1dsIV will be 26 mp with hd video. forgot we were moving to the next model :)

[jacuff]

I don't think there will be a Mark IV anything, it's bad luck in Asia. They will likley go right to five...

Yeah, you are probably spot on here. They went from the G3 to the G5. They also went from the EOS 5 to the EOS 3. It also looks like with most lenses, when they get to Mark III, they either redesign it as a different lens (70-300mm) or give it a Mark V designation (28-80mm).

[picturecrazy]

It'll be interesting to see which direction canon goes. Follow nikon and go FF? But then again, most 1D3 shooters I know LIKE the crop factor and don't want to lose it.

[Cmizzle]

why would they make the 1d full frame...i think it gives canon an edge having a 1.3 crop and a ff version of their high end camera bodys

[AdamJL]

It will need to have 17MP to have the same pixel density (that is, same "reach") as the 1D Mk III. I see this as the minimum pixel count it will have to have. Otherwise, 1D3 users will be unhappy of losing "reach" after upgrading.

Based on 50D's fps rate, I estimate that dual digic IV can process 10 fps for 18-19 MP. Well, that is not too far away from 21 MP. It will still make people wonder if the extra 2-3 MP is worth the extra cost of 1Ds Mk III.

Pixel density has nothing to do with reach. It's pixel density. That's all.

[AdamJL]

I don't think there will be a Mark IV anything, it's bad luck in Asia. They will likley go right to five...

Secondly, who gives a rip.. (somewhat playing devil's advocate), the pros aren't going to likley change systems in any bulk if Canon is at a technical disadvantage for a while. I agree that Canon is likley to upgrade things but I'm not totally convienced that they will release something totally new at PMA in the spring. I think your likely to see something later in the year... I could see something possibly like a MkIIIn that would be an upgrade to the MkIII's but not really a fully new camera. I also know a few sports shooters who like the 1.3 crop factor as the added range is kinda nice...

I think something that I find particularly funny about POTN and DPReview forums is that you have tons of gear heads who concern themselves too much with gear and not nearly enough with how to use it. It's been said more than once that audiophiles listen to stereo's not music, and I think the same could be said for a lot of camera freaks... they look at camera's and nit pick spec sheets while completely failing to create amazing images. I used to sit and think a lot more about camera gear, but at some point I realized that my clients care about solid images and don't care how technically I get it done.

Hello, Digic 4??

[picturecrazy]

Hello, Digic 4??

but it still is common to skip the number 4 in japanese products.

Even the S-series skipped the 4. S1 S2 S3 S5.

[jacuff]

Hello, Digic 4??

Which brings up another peculiarity...

Canon wrote Digic 2 and Digic 3 as Roman numerals, but for Digic 4, it's written out with Arabic. If 4 written out in Asian lanauges is bad luck, it would seem they would opt for Digic IV over Digic 4. ???

[pieq314]

Pixel density has nothing to do with reach. It's pixel density. That's all.
Pixel density is what determines "reach". You can always crop a full frame photo to get whatever crop factor you like.

[pieq314]

It'll be interesting to see which direction canon goes. Follow nikon and go FF? But then again, most 1D3 shooters I know LIKE the crop factor and don't want to lose it.

Just like the Nikon cameras, I am quite sure 1D Mk IV (or V if Canon decides to skip 4) will offer a crop mode, so you have the best from both worlds.

[pieq314]

Which brings up another peculiarity...

Canon wrote Digic 2 and Digic 3 as Roman numerals, but for Digic 4, it's written out with Arabic. If 4 written out in Asian lanauges is bad luck, it would seem they would opt for Digic IV over Digic 4. ???

It is not how "4" is written. It is how "4" is pronounced.

[picturecrazy]

Just like the Nikon cameras, I am quite sure 1D Mk IV (or V if Canon decides to skip 4) will offer a crop mode, so you have the best from both worlds.

That's what I'm not so sure about. You see, Nikon has dynamic viewfinder displays. They're just plain AWESOME. I LOVE them. They show active AF points (and are totally invisible when not active unlike canon), DX crop lines (if need be), composition lines... they're just great. Canon doesn't do this at all... not even in their 1-series line. I'd really be surprised if canon starts doing this... and they would probably need to in order to support crop modes.

Well, now that I think of it, I guess they could cheap out and offer a new Ec focusing screen with 1.3 crop lines.

[brian44]

I think something that I find particularly funny about POTN and DPReview forums is that you have tons of gear heads who concern themselves too much with gear and not nearly enough with how to use it. It's been said more than once that audiophiles listen to stereo's not music, and I think the same could be said for a lot of camera freaks... they look at camera's and nit pick spec sheets while completely failing to create amazing images. I used to sit and think a lot more about camera gear, but at some point I realized that my clients care about solid images and don't care how technically I get it done.

Yes there are a lot of people like that, but I'm a professional and I'm up against other professionals trying to get their stuff used. If they have a body that is technically better than mine and all else being equal, they have an edge over me, which I can't really afford. If their shots are cleaner, with more dynamic range, better colours and more accurate focussing than mine, I'm in trouble. I don't particularly lust after camera gear any more than a plumber lusts after a spanner. They are just tools that make things possible. Unfortunately I have to stay with the pack (I'd often rather spend the money on something else!).

[FlyingPhotog]

That's what I'm not so sure about. You see, Nikon has dynamic viewfinder displays. They're just plain AWESOME. I LOVE them. They show active AF points (and are totally invisible when not active unlike canon), DX crop lines (if need be), composition lines... they're just great. Canon doesn't do this at all... not even in their 1-series line. I'd really be surprised if canon starts doing this... and they would probably need to in order to support crop modes.

All well and good but frankly, it's all stuff that could fail, break, not work, die, go Tango Uniform at the worst possible moment.

Just give me a viewfinder that's big and bright and let me worry about framing, horizons, verticals, etc... I really can do it myself. Plus, I shoot 3:2 with 5:4 in mind so who needs crop marks?

[fensterbme]

all else being equal, they have an edge over me, which I can't really afford. If their shots are cleaner, with more dynamic range, better colours and more accurate focussing than mine

I'm not saying that long term that the pros won't switch if one brand has a systemic advantage, but I don't see Nikon having that type of advantage over Canon, and that it would have to take quite a while for the pros to get fed up to change their entire system out.

What I was point to is that there are a blue million online gear heads who look to gear to give them 'something', and the reality is the gear isn't their issue at all but it's easier to think of that then to actually woodshed and get better. Don't get me wrong I like gear as much as the next guy and I realize what better gear can do, but more importantly I realize what better gear can NOT do for a shooter.

Lastly, I'll say this... While I know nothing of you or the type of photography your into (and understanding that it's a pretty diverse world of pros), if it's the gear that determine if your shots get bought/sold/used then I'd be concerned from a business standpoint... it's the creativity side of things that should be the edge that gets a photographer noticed. I realize that there are on-going upgrades that you want to stay current and that's fine. The photographers I know who truely making the big money are doing so because their better and more creative photographers than the others (having good communication and business skills is also part of it)

[FlyingPhotog]

I'm not saying that long term that the pros won't switch if one brand has a systemic advantage, but I don't see Nikon having that type of advantage over Canon, and that it would have to take quite a while for the pros to get fed up to change their entire system out.

One thing you may be overlooking...

In some situations, the gear you use is the gear your employer has for you to use...

If your paper or mag switches from C to N, so will you or else. ;)

[brian44]

Lastly, I'll say this... While I know nothing of you or the type of photography your into (and understanding that it's a pretty diverse world of pros), if it's the gear that determine if your shots get bought/sold/used then I'd be concerned from a business standpoint... it's the creativity side of things that should be the edge that gets a photographer noticed. I realize that there are on-going upgrades that you want to stay current and that's fine. The photographers I know who truely making the big money are doing so because their better and more creative photographers than the others (having good communication and business skills is also part of it)

Unfortunately a lot of the photography I do is live and almost beyond my creative control (apart from timing, viewpoint and lens choice etc). The mags still like to go for quality though and they have the time to look, especially for say an event where many people are getting very similar shots. It definitely helps if your shots stand out. I shoot anything from sport, events, celebrity, hard news, politics to generic stock and landscapes. I do my best to impose my style and vision on a shot, but when you are all herded into a pen it's difficult. For news it's more the picture than the quality, although even here low light focussing ability and high ISO performance can help a hell of a lot

[brian44]

One thing you may be overlooking...

In some situations, the gear you use is the gear your employer has for you to use...

If your paper or mag switches from C to N, so will you or else. ;)

Even Getty did that to their sports photographers. They all had to go over to Canon. I know one sports photographer who really did miss his Nikon 400mm!

I'm personally a freelance, so have complete control. It can be very expensive though...

[DarthVader]

Actually if Canon is smart...it should make the Mark IV 10 MP, imagine the high ISO quality on 5D Mark II with 21 MP, it will be super when having it with 10 MP. I'm sure it will take Nikon by surprise! :)

[AdamJL]

If it's still APS-H, then I reckon they should go no more than 12mp.... 10mp is perfectly adequate. Gapless microlenses on that sensor would simply own.

[jerrythesnake]

http://www.canonrumors.com/category/photography/canon-1d-mark-x/

new rumours

[FlyingPhotog]

http://www.canonrumors.com/category/photography/canon-1d-mark-x/

new rumours

I've been wondering when some sanctioning body or venue would realize a potential conflict with TV or other house rules over the video capability.

This ought to be interesting.

I can see it now. You roll up at the SuperBowl in 2010 and:
First Stop: Security
Second Stop: Frequency Coordination
Third Stop: CPS Rep to disable video via firmware

[jerrythesnake]

they reckon a may 19th announcement, usually pretty credible info on this site if you listen to the moderators.

[bbbig]

I think 1DMk4 (or whatever it will be called in the end) will be a FF body, simply because having a separate 1.3x size sensor production ONLY FOR the 1D model seems very (very) expensive approach, when no other competitors are doing that.

In other words, they could streamline their sensor development path to 1.6x and 1.0x, and focus their resources in two tech platform, than over three.

Of course, I'm saying all this without knowing how much of Canon's dSLR revenue comes from the 1D model, with respect to the rest of their dSLR models. Unless they sell sh*t load of 1D models (i.e. about as much as all 1.6x models combined, or all 1.0x models combined, by profit $, not by units sold), I can't imagine business minds insisting on keeping the 1.3x factor.

I mean, they could even conceivably create a 20fps+ 1.6x models with as little noise as current 1.3x sensor. My guess is that they will go FF path as it offers thinner DoF to isolate the subjects better.

For those saying the next 1D will never be 21mp etc - Canon can easily 'fix' that by making the next 1Ds4 a 50mp+ body. They have had such sensor for few years now, so I'm pretty sure it's not far from production. Plus that gives them excuse to charge $8k for the next 1Ds.

[pieq314]

For those saying the next 1D will never be 21mp etc - Canon can easily 'fix' that by making the next 1Ds4 a 50mp+ body. They have had such sensor for few years now, so I'm pretty sure it's not far from production. Plus that gives them excuse to charge $8k for the next 1Ds.

I have thought about that - with 1Ds being a really high density sensor. At least Canon demonstrated with 15MP 50D that high density is doable and some lenses are up to the job (at least in the center region).

But here is a timing dilemma: 1Ds 4 has to be announced before 1D 4. Otherwise, Canon will not have a 1Ds camera for sale at the high price (1Ds price has to drop below $4k if a 21MP 1D4 is to be priced at $4.5k or $5k).

[Karl Johnston]

I bet anything the 1Ds mark 4 will not only capture superior image quality it will also incorporate superior image SOUND - you will be able to hear the sounds the image quality makes ! (LSD anyone?)

:D

[bbbig]

I have thought about that - with 1Ds being a really high density sensor. At least Canon demonstrated with 15MP 50D that high density is doable and some lenses are up to the job (at least in the center region).

But here is a timing dilemma: 1Ds 4 has to be announced before 1D 4. Otherwise, Canon will not have a 1Ds camera for sale at the high price (1Ds price has to drop below $4k if a 21MP 1D4 is to be priced at $4.5k or $5k).

Considering the prices of D3 @ $4k, 1D3 @ $3700, 1Ds3 @ $6500, it would make sense for 1D4 to have the re-tooled 1Ds2 sensor (16.7mp) and shoot 10 fps using Dual Digic4 and be priced at $4k. Seeing how Canon priced 5D2 @ $2700 vs. D700 @ $3k, I think their strategy is to get Nikon on pricing point too. I imagine it will have the Movie Mode as well, perhaps with autofocus.

[pieq314]

Considering the prices of D3 @ $4k, 1D3 @ $3700, 1Ds3 @ $6500, it would make sense for 1D4 to have the re-tooled 1Ds2 sensor (16.7mp) and shoot 10 fps using Dual Digic4 and be priced at $4k. Seeing how Canon priced 5D2 @ $2700 vs. D700 @ $3k, I think their strategy is to get Nikon on pricing point too. I imagine it will have the Movie Mode as well, perhaps with autofocus.
I think you made a very logical argument. The only minor item that I believe is 1D Mk IV will have at least 17MP, so that its pixel density is at least as high as that in 1D Mk III, so that the same lens will have at least the same "reach". It will probably have an initial price of $4500, same as 1D Mk III.

[bbbig]

I think you made a very logical argument. The only minor item that I believe is 1D Mk IV will have at least 17MP, so that its pixel density is at least as high as that in 1D Mk III, so that the same lens will have at least the same "reach". It will probably have an initial price of $4500, same as 1D Mk III.

I am not so sure about the resolution being greater than 16.7MP, because it would exceed the processing power available in Digic 4 processors.

Seeing that a single Digic 4 processor can handle 21.1mp at 3.9 fps (= 82.29mp/sec bandwidth), a dual Digic 4 processor would be able to handle 164.58mp/sec. Now, if the targeted fps of 1D4 is 10fps (at least), then 164.58 / 10 = 16.45mp.

There must be a good reason why Canon 5D Mark II is being sold as a 3.9fps, and not a 4fps body, and I am suspecting that it's due to Digic 4's bandwidth limit.

With the reasoning above, I am thinking one of two things will happen:
1. Canon decides to make a new 16.5mp (16.45) sensor altogether and sell it as a 10fps body, or
2. Canon decides to re-use some of the (proven) 16.7mp sensor manufacturing process and sell it as a "9.9 fps" (9.855 rounded up) body.

Knowing what I know about how R&D and production is done in engineering, I am leaning toward the #2 scenario, as it would be more cost effective for both R&D and for production.

There is a third possibility, that another revision of Digic 4 processor may be clocked slightly higher, and that it can handle 16.7mp @ 10fps. (and I am making a big assumption that Canon just couldn't get the chip to run at that clock, by the time they went RTM on Digic 4)

So, unless Canon decides to go TRIPLE Digic 4 in the new 1D4, I just can't see its resolution being higher than 16.7mp. (full-frame or otherwise)

[pieq314]

I am not so sure about the resolution being greater than 16.7MP, because it would exceed the processing power available in Digic 4 processors.

Seeing that a single Digic 4 processor can handle 21.1mp at 3.9 fps (= 82.29mp/sec bandwidth), a dual Digic 4 processor would be able to handle 164.58mp/sec. Now, if the targeted fps of 1D4 is 10fps (at least), then 164.58 / 10 = 16.45mp.

There must be a good reason why Canon 5D Mark II is being sold as a 3.9fps, and not a 4fps body, and I am suspecting that it's due to Digic 4's bandwidth limit.

With the reasoning above, I am thinking one of two things will happen:
1. Canon decides to make a new 16.5mp (16.45) sensor altogether and sell it as a 10fps body, or
2. Canon decides to re-use some of the (proven) 16.7mp sensor manufacturing process and sell it as a "9.9 fps" (9.855 rounded up) body.

Knowing what I know about how R&D and production is done in engineering, I am leaning toward the #2 scenario, as it would be more cost effective for both R&D and for production.

There is a third possibility, that another revision of Digic 4 processor may be clocked slightly higher, and that it can handle 16.7mp @ 10fps. (and I am making a big assumption that Canon just couldn't get the chip to run at that clock, by the time they went RTM on Digic 4)

So, unless Canon decides to go TRIPLE Digic 4 in the new 1D4, I just can't see its resolution being higher than 16.7mp. (full-frame or otherwise)

I went through that calculation myself sometime ago. Then it caught my attention of the 15MP 6.3 fps of the 50D. 15*6.3*2/10=18.9 MP. That is, based on the Digic 4's performance on the 50D, dual Digic IV can process 18.9MP photos at 18.9 MP.

[bbbig]

I went through that calculation myself sometime ago. Then it caught my attention of the 15MP 6.3 fps of the 50D. 15*6.3*2/10=18.9 MP. That is, based on the Digic 4's performance on the 50D, dual Digic IV can process 18.9MP photos at 18.9 MP.

Hmm, I wonder if 5D2's speed was held back intentionally, so it won't compete too much with 1Ds3? I certainly hope they can deliver 19MP 1D4 @ 10fps!

[grego]

I think the 5D Mk II is cutting into 1Ds mk III's market. I feel Canon had no choice but to make 5D Mk II a 21-MP camera because it knows Sony was making the 24.5-MP camera.

It doesn't cut that much into the 1Ds market, but it makes people upsell to the 5D instead of the xxD, if people want full frame. Most people previously either did xxD or 1D series, since they wanted bigger sensors. Now the 5D makes people spend more than they might previously have (unless they actually went after the 1D). No longer would they have to save up as much to buy or be not willing to buy for something that pricey.

the 1Ds series will always have a limited crowd, but that's what its for compared to a 5D series.

[FlyingPhotog]

Hmm, I wonder if 5D2's speed was held back intentionally, so it won't compete too much with 1Ds3? I certainly hope they can deliver 19MP 1D4 @ 10fps!

Do you mean processing speed or shutter speed?

[grego]

As for 1.3x crop, I think its useful for a sports camera. The extra field of view it gives is useful for giving your lens a little more. The more you can fill the frame, the better.

[bbbig]

Do you mean processing speed or shutter speed?

Processing speed. I don't think making a FF shutter mechanism to go 5fps+, because it's nothing new.

[gregpphoto]

But this is also the problem: where does the 1Ds stand? With such a 1D Mk IV, who would buy 1Ds Mk III/IV? And Canon has to price the 1D Mk IV around $4500, so that is $3500 loss in income for Canon (but of course great for us). Now that Nikon can also make nice cameras (unlike the D2 days), Canon may be forced to make 1D Mk IV this way.

What are your thoughts?

To me that's not a problem it's a blessing. I for one find it dumb to spend $8,000 on a body, and I'm glad that Nikon will force Canon into pricing their cameras lower, as they should when they no longer have total dominance over digital. The D3 and D700 stack up against anything Canon has. I haven't seen much from the 5D MK II yet so I can't put my opinion in about that, but hopefully it's a step towards putting Canon back at the top of the DSLR world.

[pieq314]

To me that's not a problem it's a blessing.

It is also a blessing to me to merge 1D and 1Ds and priced at 1D range. I am just curious how Canon is going to position future 1Ds cameras.

[pieq314]

As for 1.3x crop, I think its useful for a sports camera. The extra field of view it gives is useful for giving your lens a little more. The more you can fill the frame, the better.

If the 1D Mk IV has 17 MP full frame, it will have the same "reach" as 1D Mk III. You can either crop it in post processing, or Canon can have a 1.3x crop mode on the camera. Anything more than 17MP will give you more "reach".

[pieq314]

Processing speed. I don't think making a FF shutter mechanism to go 5fps+, because it's nothing new.
Some one suggested the possibility of noise: faster read from the sensor will increase read noise. That is, 5D Mk II's speed was held back for noise control. (Assuming Canon did not hold it back due to business considerations)

[danielyamseng]

By the time it release 1D mark III replacement model, most probably it'd use DIGIV VI or at at least DIGI V.

And it might use quad DIGI processor, thus a better noise reduction system would not be a problem.

In addition to that, the design of the image sensor would be better at IQ and noise performance.

And it's a norm the 1D series is pair with the new 1Ds model thus even the next 1D mark III replacement model IQ and performance beat the 1Ds mark III, it's couple(1Ds), would beat it back.

I'm agree to some of you guys that Canon doesn't look like listening to us as a photographer what we wish/want to have in the next 1D series model, but maybe to them they think that they're making a right/best decision for us and thought their decision is superior to us.

That's why it's been quite a while for those have a high expectation on their 1D series would have been a bit dissapointed while other still can live without it.

[grego]

If the 1D Mk IV has 17 MP full frame, it will have the same "reach" as 1D Mk III. You can either crop it in post processing, or Canon can have a 1.3x crop mode on the camera. Anything more than 17MP will give you more "reach".

It has the same "reach" when cropped down, but..... when you are actually there photographing sports/action, achieving proper AF lock on a player/subject is much easier when the frame is filled compared to when they are a small spec on the view finder. The crop is useful before you take the photo. Obviously the then the advantage could go even more to the 1.6 crop, but the 1D has so much better AF that it still wins that battle.

In post, cropping in is fine and dandy, but it won't help you get a shot locked in focus before the shutter is pushed. And that is where it is very useful. Nothing replaces being able to get the shot on the spot. And that is where the crop is useful when using a 300 2.8 (390mm FOV) or the 400 2.8 (520mm FOV).

[skygod44]

http://www.canonrumors.com/category/photography/canon-1d-mark-x/
new rumours
"Thank-you-thank-you-thank-you!" for posting this rumour link. I'm in the process of wanting a second, "better" body to go with my 30D and don't want to jump until the right moment as this is still a hobby, albeit a big one, for me. This gives me a good feeling that "waiting" is what'll be best. Not jumping to a 5DMkII (that I feel isn't what I want) or a 1DMkIII when a newer model is just around the corner.
....they could streamline their sensor development path to 1.6x and 1.0x....
For those saying the next 1D will never be 21mp etc - Canon can easily 'fix' that by making the next 1Ds4 a 50mp+ body.
I think you're right in your logic. 2 sensors makes more business sense than 3. Athough as some have pointed out, togs like the better AF when there's a slight crop advantage at the time of releasing the shutter, especially when at sports events, etc....but when has Canon ever really listened to togs???
...unless Canon decides to go TRIPLE Digic 4 in the new 1D4, I just can't see its resolution being higher than 16.7mp. (full-frame or otherwise)
Wouldn't that camera be the bee's knees!!! Not so huge that everyone would have to upgrade their PC, but big enough, and in a pro body, to make the "1DMk??" a viable choice, after a bit more saving, rather than a 5DMkII.
Role on, the springtime (I hope) release date!!!!!!
:D

[Jannie]

Actually I think Canon's going to dump the professional line, there's no money in it compared to the suckers who move from the XSi up to the 5DII so they can get the same results as the pros do with the 1DsMKIII, after all why would any idiot spend $8,000 when they can have the same thing for $2,700 Duh! And not only that, with the 5DII you can start your own movie production company and get Anjolina and Brad to star in your first big show. The world is changing fast, you don't need pro gear or even a movie studio or theaters to get your stuff out there to the public, all you need is a 5DII and Utube! Yay!!!

[FlyingPhotog]

Actually I think Canon's going to dump the professional line, there's no money in it compared to the suckers who move from the XSi up to the 5DII so they can get the same results as the pros do with the 1DsMKIII, after all why would any idiot spend $8,000 when they can have the same thing for $2,700 Duh! And not only that, with the 5DII you can start your own movie production company and get Anjolina and Brad to star in your first big show. The world is changing fast, you don't need pro gear or even a movie studio or theaters to get your stuff out there to the public, all you need is a 5DII and Utube! Yay!!!

You forgot the ;)

[bbbig]

Some one suggested the possibility of noise: faster read from the sensor will increase read noise. That is, 5D Mk II's speed was held back for noise control. (Assuming Canon did not hold it back due to business considerations)

Considering Canon manages noise just fine with 1Ds3 @ 5fps, I doubt they held back its speed due to noise suppression. Considering charge/discharge of sensor is possible at 10fps (1D3), I'm sure current technologies can go faster with little limitation on that front.

[Jannie]

Yes, please consider my post with a ;-)

[GMCPhotographics]

I've been moaning about the 5DII's fps for a little while. The digic 4 is capable of a lot more than the 5DII allows. 21mp x 3.9fps = 81.9 mp/sec. A 50D using the same Digic processor yeilds 15x6.2=93mp/sec. Canon have said that a single Digic 4 is good for around 100mp/sec. The 5DII is very shy of this figure...probably for marketing reasons, or they want to keep their 3.9 fps options with the next round of the mega pixels war. A 1D series has 2 Digics...which when combined yield about 1.6x the capacity of a single Digic. So we have a processor that can handle 160mp/sec...which is quite a lot. We can divide this many ways...16mp @10fps or more interestingly 20mp @ 8fps...which is very close to the 5DII as a Full framer. There's a lot of talk about the next 1D series having a full frame sensor, so I wonder if it'll be a slightly over clocked Digic 4 with 21.1 mp (to match the 5DII) with 8fps (to match the old 1DII) with a high speed sRAW option to bump to 10-12 fps at less mp? There's also rumours of a 1.3x active crop option. This way, every one is a winner...so to speak.
This camera would then fill dual roles as a creative full frame delight and a sports camera. If this is the case, I can see this Cam being the most versatile pro camera ever built. If you think that the 5DII is in short supply, just wait until this new cam is delivered! No wonder Canon have delayed their announcement until May...Canon can't ship the 5DII's fast enough and this cam will kill it's sales!

[Croasdail]

It has the same "reach" when cropped down, but..... when you are actually there photographing sports/action, achieving proper AF lock on a player/subject is much easier when the frame is filled compared to when they are a small spec on the view finder. The crop is useful before you take the photo. Obviously the then the advantage could go even more to the 1.6 crop, but the 1D has so much better AF that it still wins that battle.

In post, cropping in is fine and dandy, but it won't help you get a shot locked in focus before the shutter is pushed. And that is where it is very useful. Nothing replaces being able to get the shot on the spot. And that is where the crop is useful when using a 300 2.8 (390mm FOV) or the 400 2.8 (520mm FOV).

Thanks for injecting some common sense and real world application here. All this "I'll just crop later" is not the way to shoot for the very reasons you mention.

[bbbig]

Sounds like there may be some advantage for 1D4 to stay 1.3x crop format. Because how it gives more 'reach' and focusing is easier w/more-filled-frame, those arguments may make more sense for being a "sports body".

So, those arguments would be only so true, if sports photographers never/rarely take wide-angle shots. And when they do, they'd just use 5D or some other FF (or XXD+10-22) to take them, and those situations would be more of an exception than norm, as more shots are taken at longer focal lengths.

How true is this?

[FlyingPhotog]

Sounds like there may be some advantage for 1D4 to stay 1.3x crop format. Because how it gives more 'reach' and focusing is easier w/more-filled-frame, those arguments may make more sense for being a "sports body".

So, those arguments would be only so true, if sports photographers never/rarely take wide-angle shots. And when they do, they'd just use 5D or some other FF (or XXD+10-22) to take them, and those situations would be more of an exception than norm, as more shots are taken at longer focal lengths.

How true is this?

Most of the sports shooters I see at the events I work have a 16-35 f/2.8L mounted on a second 1-series body.

Even at 1.3x, the effective FOV is 20mm which is still mighty wide...

[Canonswhitelensesrule]

I think the next 1D Mark IV or V or whatever it will be, should stay as a 1.3x crop body. As previously mentioned, it's great for sport and action shooters to have that crop value IN the camera when you need it when shooting the action.

It should also have 10-12 fps, AND most importantly, have NO AF issues right from the start!! Get it right the FIRST time! As far as how many MPs it should have, I think somewhere in the 12-15 range, if not staying at 10 MP, would be good.

I think people tend to forget that not everyone can afford 2 or more camera bodies, and maybe someone wants a 1D series body for the high FPS rate, the 1.3x crop factor, and to use it in various types of photography, such as a nature photographer who covers animals, so the high fps would be useful in capturing a soaring bird, running animal etc, but also uses wide angle lenses to capture scenic images such as the Grand Canyon, Slot Canyons, Alaskan Glaciers etc, and even used with macro lenses.

And even if they do decide to purchase a second camera body, it would be so convenient to be able to have the same body so they wouldn't have to think twice about "Which body am I using?", and just keep shooting.

Now if Canon decided to make an EF 12-28mm f2.8L lens designed for 1.3x crop bodies, (a 15.6 - 36.4 mm FF equivalent) that might be something that 1D series body users might take a look at).

Just my 2 cents.

[pieq314]

Originally Posted by grego http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7101416#post7101416)
It has the same "reach" when cropped down, but..... when you are actually there photographing sports/action, achieving proper AF lock on a player/subject is much easier when the frame is filled compared to when they are a small spec on the view finder. The crop is useful before you take the photo. Obviously the then the advantage could go even more to the 1.6 crop, but the 1D has so much better AF that it still wins that battle.

In post, cropping in is fine and dandy, but it won't help you get a shot locked in focus before the shutter is pushed. And that is where it is very useful. Nothing replaces being able to get the shot on the spot. And that is where the crop is useful when using a 300 2.8 (390mm FOV) or the 400 2.8 (520mm FOV).

Thanks for injecting some common sense and real world application here. All this "I'll just crop later" is not the way to shoot for the very reasons you mention.

You do have a point about pointing the AF point more accurately with a permanent 1.3x crop with a "1.3x crop view finder".

Does any one know how Nikon's D3 handles it? Does it magnifies the view to "full view" when the camera is set in crop mode? This would be a nice feature, of course. But if I have to settle for the second best by choosing between a full frame (without view finder magnification in crop mode) and 1.3x crop sensor, I would still choose full frame.

[pieq314]

I think people tend to forget that not everyone can afford 2 or more camera bodies,

That is one of the reasons for 1D Mk IV to be a full frame sensor. Full frame will collect 70% more photons than a 1.3x crop sensor, thus better ISO noise, and Canon cannot lose the ISO noise battle with Nikon.

[GMCPhotographics]

Nikon have been very bold with their D3, bringing a full frame pro body to the market for sports / action / PJ ect.. Canon has wanted to unify the 1D series for several generations but hasn't had the balls to do it. Nikon has led the way and pointed to the future. Canon will most likely follw suit with a full frame pro camera (1 series), retaining the 10 fps. If we do the digic 4 maths, we get 15mp. The 1D has always matched the xxD range for mp, so no big surprise here. But this time, we are likley to see a 1.3x active crop mode as an optional CF.
If Canon drops the fps to about 7.5-8, then they could pack in a 21mp full frame sensor (aka 5D and current 1dsIII) and push the active crop to 10fps at 15mp.
From a marketing persepective it makes a lot of sence except for the current 5dII buyers might be really peeved. Given the current canon price rises and the latest DSLR prices over the last 6 months, the 1D series is likely to break the £3500 UKP barrier and sell like hot cakes.

[gregpphoto]

7.5-8 fps is blindingly fast. Yes, the bird and sports folks "need" that 11 fps I suppose (even though I think I've seen beautiful works from the above fields long before motor drives were invented). In any event, I just want a camera designed for a photographer, not for a bird photographer, not a fashion photographer, not for a videographer but A PHOTOGRAPHER. Give me high quality of the following: AF, noise handling, resolution, build, etc. Do I need video? Not on your life. Do I need mountain mode and guy on bike mode? Not likely, if I just dropped $2500-$8000. Can't somebody make a rugged "digital f4" or something? Something that knows the basics, forget the fancy stuff just concentrate on blocking and tackling (thanks, Vince). Personally speaking, I would appreciate a few well designed features than an array of horrible ones.

Piss off Canon, lol.

[skygod44]

7.5-8 fps is blindingly fast. Yes, the bird and sports folks "need" that 11 fps I suppose (even though I think I've seen beautiful works from the above fields long before motor drives were invented). In any event, I just want a camera designed for a photographer, not for a bird photographer, not a fashion photographer, not for a videographer but A PHOTOGRAPHER. Give me high quality of the following: AF, noise handling, resolution, build, etc. Do I need video? Not on your life. Do I need mountain mode and guy on bike mode? Not likely, if I just dropped $2500-$8000. Can't somebody make a rugged "digital f4" or something? Something that knows the basics, forget the fancy stuff just concentrate on blocking and tackling (thanks, Vince). Personally speaking, I would appreciate a few well designed features than an array of horrible ones.

Piss off Canon, lol.

Well said Greg.

What confuses and annoys me at the moment is how/why any manufacturer would consider that jamming every gimmick they can think of under the sun into a camera body will continue to woo photographers.

Maybe P&S people "need" more gimmicks such as face recognition? Although I always thought that humans were quite good at that, but hey! Gimmicks definitely seem to sell P&S cameras, so that's fine by me.

But the dSLR herd....? I really hope we're a bit more discerning.

Aren't we?

So why can't Canon and Nickers-on make a camera (ONE CAMERA) at each price bracket that does exactly what 95%+ of each genre of photographer will need, 95% of the time, to take beautiful, stylish, individualizable (is there such a word?) pictures?

And don't say, "it's just about the profits", or I'm likely to throw this PC through the window!
;)

[gregpphoto]

So why can't Canon and Nickers-on make a camera (ONE CAMERA) at each price bracket that does exactly what 95%+ of each genre of photographer will need, 95% of the time, to take beautiful, stylish, individualizable (is there such a word?) pictures?

I've long wondered why as well, and I've come up with: Because then you wouldn't need more than one camera, unless you want to shoot with multiple bodies of course.

[skygod44]

I've long wondered why as well, and I've come up with: Because then you wouldn't need more than one camera, unless you want to shoot with multiple bodies of course.

At least you didn't say it was just about profit.

Well....yes, I am looking forward to the time I get a 1DMk(IV/V/whatever they call it) - which should be around 12-18 months after it's launch - so the suggestions people are coming out with for this thread are 100% of interest to me, but I do wish Canon would pull their sushi-rolls outta their collective backsides and toss out their gimmicks, reduce the bodies (by putting 95%+ of what we need into each, at each price bracket) and then developing something else, such as less noise, better AA filters, less "tweaking" via software, and more via better hardware, etc.....

Ho hum.:rolleyes:

[nicksan]

OK, being that you are talking about the next gen 1D body, what "gimmicks" are you exactly talking about as far as what's featured on the 1DMKIII and 1DsMKIII? Or are you generally complaining about what you THINK they will put on the new camera, like video mode? OK, so that's 1 "gimmick"...

I don't get all this whining...

Nice touch about the sushi rolls comment too..

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

At least you didn't say it was just about profit.

Well....yes, I am looking forward to the time I get a 1DMk(IV/V/whatever they call it) - which should be around 12-18 months after it's launch - so the suggestions people are coming out with for this thread are 100% of interest to me, but I do wish Canon would pull their sushi-rolls outta their collective backsides and toss out their gimmicks, reduce the bodies (by putting 95%+ of what we need into each, at each price bracket) and then developing something else, such as less noise, better AA filters, less "tweaking" via software, and more via better hardware, etc.....

Ho hum.:rolleyes:

[skygod44]

OK, being that you are talking about the next gen 1D body, what "gimmicks" are you exactly talking about as far as what's featured on the 1DMKIII and 1DsMKIII? Or are you generally complaining about what you THINK they will put on the new camera, like video mode? OK, so that's 1 "gimmick"...

I don't get all this whining...

Nice touch about the sushi rolls comment too..

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sorry about the time-zone difference before replying.

And yes, it is a kind of "whine", but I'm really talking about stuff like face-recognition, which must use up a lot of R&D resource time which could've been spent making OUR cameras better...and cheaper! ;)

Yeah, yeah, I know more people buy P&S cameras than dSLRs - especially here in Japan - but I'm not in a generous mood right now, because you've got a decent kinda dude stepped in as President, while we're still dealing with a corrupt little turd as Prime Minister (I promise, no more politics! If there's a mod watching!)

So, let's see the 1DMkIV (or V or whatever they call it) with a 21MP FF sensor; active 1.3x or 1.6x cropping function to enhance the AF accuracy and reduce file sizes; 7.5fps(FF), 10fps(1.3x) and 14fps(1.6x) - just for showing-off purposes to 1D3 owners;); no video thanks, but definitely the same or similar regarding one-touch function setting like the current 1D line-up.

Live-view can stay too, for taking pictures over people's heads and helping with macro stuff. The same rugged body is a no-brainer, too, then I can bash people with it when they block my view without worrying too much ;)

Over to you Nicksan! (Or is that Nick さん?)

[pieq314]

And yes, it is a kind of "whine", but I'm really talking about stuff like face-recognition, which must use up a lot of R&D resource time which could've been spent making OUR cameras better...and cheaper! ;)


I actually do not think face recognition used up much R&D resource though. This function has been available in Canon's p&s for several years now. It probably does not take much effort for Canon to move the code to DSLRs.

Some one also pointed out that video function should not take much effort either, because it is really a live view function, which was already available in the last generation DSLRs. So with live view already available, video and face recognition were no longer big deals to develop in DSLRs.

Edit: I remember I have seen a video by Canon 40D. The video function was added to 40D by hackers. So adding video function to a camera with live view does not seem to be too hard.

[ed rader]

Most of the sports shooters I see at the events I work have a 16-35 f/2.8L mounted on a second 1-series body.

Even at 1.3x, the effective FOV is 20mm which is still mighty wide...

i love that combo :D.

ed rader

[nicksan]

Now you're talkin'!

So when do you think Nikon will push out this Camera?

Oops...I mean Canon?

And yes, Nickさん it is!:lol:;)


Sorry about the time-zone difference before replying.

And yes, it is a kind of "whine", but I'm really talking about stuff like face-recognition, which must use up a lot of R&D resource time which could've been spent making OUR cameras better...and cheaper! ;)

Yeah, yeah, I know more people buy P&S cameras than dSLRs - especially here in Japan - but I'm not in a generous mood right now, because you've got a decent kinda dude stepped in as President, while we're still dealing with a corrupt little turd as Prime Minister (I promise, no more politics! If there's a mod watching!)

So, let's see the 1DMkIV (or V or whatever they call it) with a 21MP FF sensor; active 1.3x or 1.6x cropping function to enhance the AF accuracy and reduce file sizes; 7.5fps(FF), 10fps(1.3x) and 14fps(1.6x) - just for showing-off purposes to 1D3 owners;); no video thanks, but definitely the same or similar regarding one-touch function setting like the current 1D line-up.

Live-view can stay too, for taking pictures over people's heads and helping with macro stuff. The same rugged body is a no-brainer, too, then I can bash people with it when they block my view without worrying too much ;)

Over to you Nicksan! (Or is that Nick さん?)

[c2thew]

40D by hackers.

CHDK to be exact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlKywUVFJW4

honestly, if your going to make a slideshow, you don't always have to have audio in your video. you can have music in the background playing as the clip plays.

[grego]

i love that combo :D.

ed rader

Indeed. Great for indoor sports.

[Yohan Pamudji]

A full-frame 1DIV makes a lot of sense--use the 5DII sensor and people who wanted the 5DII to be more 1-like have an option (although an imperfect one), and just bump the 1DsIV to a much higher resolution and all order is restored in Canon land. But Canon's recent decisions have made little sense, so just because something is logical doesn't mean Canon will do it.

[skygod44]

I actually do not think face recognition used up much R&D resource....Some one also pointed out that video function should not take much effort either, because it is really a live view function...

I thought someone would say that. Thanks for putting me in my place! Bad examples, I know, but the point is that the camera manufactureres are moving so far away from making it take some effort to take a picture, that pretty soon my dog will be able to take decent pictures. And she died in 1991!!!!!!

In some areas of life, making things "easier" might be a good thing - for example, "eating" on a worldwide scale, or "not dieing from 'flu" - but creating some things, such as a fine painting, classic sculpture or a stunning photograph should take more than the ability to point a gadget vaguely in the right direction, and push an idiot-switch!

Now you're talkin'!

So when do you think Nikon will push out this Camera?

Oops...I mean Canon?

And yes, Nickさん it is!:lol:;)

I'm guessing May. Maybe June. Not later than August though. But...maybe holding off 'til December would make sense for the Xmas rush. And I suppose with the economy as it is, December 2015 might be best!
:rolleyes:

Regards,
彩門
;)

[winkles]

7.5-8 fps is blindingly fast. Yes, the bird and sports folks "need" that 11 fps I suppose (even though I think I've seen beautiful works from the above fields long before motor drives were invented). In any event, I just want a camera designed for a photographer, not for a bird photographer, not a fashion photographer, not for a videographer but A PHOTOGRAPHER. Give me high quality of the following: AF, noise handling, resolution, build, etc. Do I need video? Not on your life. Do I need mountain mode and guy on bike mode? Not likely, if I just dropped $2500-$8000. Can't somebody make a rugged "digital f4" or something? Something that knows the basics, forget the fancy stuff just concentrate on blocking and tackling (thanks, Vince). Personally speaking, I would appreciate a few well designed features than an array of horrible ones.

Piss off Canon, lol.

If I was going to spend a lot on a camera I would want it to be good at what it does, rather than a jack of all trades. If I was shooting wildlife I would want it to be as fast as possible rather than compromises being made for other features that dont benefit wildlife.

[gregpphoto]

If I was going to spend a lot on a camera I would want it to be good at what it does, rather than a jack of all trades. If I was shooting wildlife I would want it to be as fast as possible rather than compromises being made for other features that dont benefit wildlife.

But then who does Canon market to? A specific group of photographers rather than photographers as a whole?

[winkles]

yeah your right, and thats up to canon to decide with their marketing gurus. I thought the current marketing worked: well as I see it 40D/1D for sports and wildlife togs 5D/1Ds for ... umm ... those that dont want the speed ;)

Kind of simplistic view but makes the choosing a model straight forward

[grego]

yeah your right, and thats up to canon to decide with their marketing gurus. I thought the current marketing worked: well as I see it 40D/1D for sports and wildlife togs 5D/1Ds for ... umm ... those that dont want the speed ;)

Kind of simplistic view but makes the choosing a model straight forward

Although with the 5D (sort of what the d700 is doing) they could have bridged the gap if they didn't listen only to the marketing guys.

[GMCPhotographics]

Canon seems to be ultra-conservative with their pro camera. The current 1dIII is a case in point. It's a fantastic camera, but it has the lowest MP in the current range and it's still using an oddball sensor crop size. Nikon have shown that there is a big market for a 1 series full frame general use camera. Canon have the problem that the 5D and 1dsIII define what they can can do with a 1DIII. Nikon''s D3 sale sales are very strong, but their D700 sales are quite poor, even though it was a far better camera than the canon 5D (until the 5DII came out).

[grego]

Canon seems to be ultra-conservative with their pro camera. The current 1dIII is a case in point. It's a fantastic camera, but it has the lowest MP in the current range and it's still using an oddball sensor crop size. Nikon have shown that there is a big market for a 1 series full frame general use camera. Canon have the problem that the 5D and 1dsIII define what they can can do with a 1DIII. Nikon''s D3 sale sales are very strong, but their D700 sales are quite poor, even though it was a far better camera than the canon 5D (until the 5DII came out).

The 1D MKIII has less MP, but has better noise performance than the 1Ds and is on par with the 5D Mark II. The Mark III would be heralded the best camera much like the 1d MKII if it never had issues at the start of its release.

[gregpphoto]

It's a fantastic camera, but it has the lowest MP in the current range and it's still using an oddball sensor crop size.

That's like saying "It's a fantastic car, but the BMW has the lowest horsepower in it's class." Maybe so, but it's still more than 98% of us need. Anything over 10mp is overkill in most (read: not all, before you try to e-kill me) situations.

[FeXL]

One more thing that just occurred: Canon needs to get out a new body well before the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics start on Feb. 12, just to prove that it's all in working order...

Also, I have no issues with the 1.3 crop. It suits me just fine.

[GMCPhotographics]

Greg, the 1D series will always be more than anyone really needs becuase of it's state of the art shutter speed. 10fps is increadible. But as a result, it's mp gets squished. There's only so many ways that Canon can cut it's Digic processing pie. the 1DsIII gets 21mp at 5fps. The 1DIII gets the same bandwidth but cuts it's pie to get 10mp at 10 fps.
My issue with the 1D series isn't just that it gets a XXD matching resolution (soon to be matched to the 50D's 15mp...I guess) but it's the odd ball 1.33x crop. It's this weird crop that really should be either a 1.6c crop or a full frame by now.
It's a fantastic camera, but I'm really not interested on one with it's current crop. When Canon finally makes a 10 fps full frame camera...then I'll be interested.

[Sprout Crumble]

I've been moaning about the 5DII's fps for a little while. The digic 4 is capable of a lot more than the 5DII allows. 21mp x 3.9fps = 81.9 mp/sec. A 50D using the same Digic processor yeilds 15x6.2=93mp/sec. Canon have said that a single Digic 4 is good for around 100mp/sec. The 5DII is very shy of this figure...probably for marketing reasons, or they want to keep their 3.9 fps options with the next round of the mega pixels war. A 1D series has 2 Digics...which when combined yield about 1.6x the capacity of a single Digic. So we have a processor that can handle 160mp/sec...which is quite a lot. We can divide this many ways...16mp @10fps or more interestingly 20mp @ 8fps...which is very close to the 5DII as a Full framer. There's a lot of talk about the next 1D series having a full frame sensor, so I wonder if it'll be a slightly over clocked Digic 4 with 21.1 mp (to match the 5DII) with 8fps (to match the old 1DII) with a high speed sRAW option to bump to 10-12 fps at less mp? There's also rumours of a 1.3x active crop option. This way, every one is a winner...so to speak.
This camera would then fill dual roles as a creative full frame delight and a sports camera. If this is the case, I can see this Cam being the most versatile pro camera ever built. If you think that the 5DII is in short supply, just wait until this new cam is delivered! No wonder Canon have delayed their announcement until May...Canon can't ship the 5DII's fast enough and this cam will kill it's sales!

Is 3.9fps really that slow though? Even Nikons D3x doesn't hit 2fps in 14-bit mode and has to drop to 12-bit mode to reach 5fps. Maybe a 12-bit mode on the 5D-II would help.

Sounds like there may be some advantage for 1D4 to stay 1.3x crop format. Because how it gives more 'reach' and focusing is easier w/more-filled-frame, those arguments may make more sense for being a "sports body".


There seems to be a lot of pros keen to stay with a 1.3x crop. i guess we'll find out if the engineers or the marketing men rule the roost inside Canon. Whatever is released will please half the internet moaners and annoy the rest so Canon aren't going to win whatever they do.

One more thing that just occurred: Canon needs to get out a new body well before the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics start on Feb. 12, just to prove that it's all in working order...

Also, I have no issues with the 1.3 crop. It suits me just fine.

Hard to know if the building rumours of a 1D3N are true or not but I'm suspecting they are. It'll be a PR nightmare for Canon if they do, despite the fact the 1D3 is superior to the D3 in as many ways as vice-versa. Its going to be a tricky one for Canon to get right.

My main concern is cost. The 1D3 has gone from £3050 to £4430 in the last couple of months. Its still possible to get one on the street for under £2500, but a 1D3N would give them the perfect opportunity to reset street prices with some vague justification and I fear we'll see £3500 bodies for the rest of the year.

[eror11]

I started with the 400D and then wanted an upgrade. At first I tried the 40D, it was better, but not by much. Then the 5D - The full frame is godsend and i love the ISO (5d mark 2 - cancelled my preorder), but now i realised the prices aren't that far apart from the 1d3 and i want accurate autofocus. Now I'm gonna wait for the improved 1d3 whatever it is and probably buy it and a couple of lenses. As long as it gets its ISO improved a bit, retains the autofocus speed and possibly improves the screen resolution, I'm sold on it. If it turns out to be too expensive, I'm gonna buy the "old" 1d3 that I'd still be happy with...

[tdodd]

I started with the 400D and then wanted an upgrade. At first I tried the 40D, it was better, but not by much. Then the 5D - The full frame is godsend and i love the ISO (5d mark 2 - cancelled my preorder), but now i realised the prices aren't that far apart from the 1d3 and i want accurate autofocus. Now I'm gonna wait for the improved 1d3 whatever it is and probably buy it and a couple of lenses. As long as it gets its ISO improved a bit, retains the autofocus speed and possibly improves the screen resolution, I'm sold on it. If it turns out to be too expensive, I'm gonna buy the "old" 1d3 that I'd still be happy with...
I bought a 50D in October and decided to get a 1D3 in December. I would have liked to hang on for a 1D3n/1D4 to see some feature improvements included (better LCD, gapless microlenses, Live View AF, DIGIC 4/5, pixel density and ISO/noise performance equal to or better than the 5D2) but two things forced my hand....

1. The 1D3 is a bloody good camera already and has served plenty of professionals very well for the past couple of years (notwithstanding the initial AF fiasco).

2. With currency exchange rates trends as they are currently, we have had forecasts, and now witnessed, extreme upward pressure on prices, at least in the UK. Canon list prices have already risen twice this year - from £3,050 to £4,000 in January and again to £4,430 in February. As old stocks run out and are replenished at the new wholesale prices these huge rises are rapidly impacting the real prices on the street. See the attached price history graph for the 1D3, as monitored by Camerapricebuster (http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/prod315.html).

I figured that if I waited for the 1D3n/1D4 I could end up waiting a (very) long time and would surely be paying considerably more than the £2,200 that I paid for my 1D3. I would not be surprised if the 1D3n/1D4 would retail (market price, not SRP) at £3,000 or more. That's more than I'm willing to pay, and what would I really gain by waiting, other than a lighter wallet? By buying in December I also benefitted from the Canon 2 year extended warranty. The decision to get the 1D3 when I did was not a hard one.

[grego]

There seems to be a lot of pros keen to stay with a 1.3x crop. i guess we'll find out if the engineers or the marketing men rule the roost inside Canon. Whatever is released will please half the internet moaners and annoy the rest so Canon aren't going to win whatever they do.


Depends on the pro. The thing that really hurt Canon is the issues at the start of release. Previously, many were running around with the 1dMKII/MKIIn. It was pretty much the unified standard on the Canon side. If Canon pulls out the refined version in their next release, they can possibly win those people back. For photojournalists and sports shooters the 1.3 crop really doesn't hinder.