Another 20D sanity check

[Bsmooth]

I've had my 20D for about a week now and I'll admit right away I'm a bit of a perfectionist but,very few If any of my shots seem sharp.Granted I'm shooting in Jpeg ,but I plan to shoot RAW as soon as I can.I did take a look at earlier threads especially the one with the tape(ruler) test and here is one of my own.Its with the 18-55 on a tripod about 1/30 shutter speed with the mirror locked up.2 shots one at Par1 and one at Par2. Please let me know what you think.Thanks

[dhbailey]

1) You need more light;
2) realize that the actual focus area is a bit larger than the red-squares indicate, so you might actually be focusing a bit differently than you think;
3) don't throw out the camera based on a $100 lens;
4) try some real-world pictures;

[lmelendez]

1) You need more light;
2) realize that the actual focus area is a bit larger than the red-squares indicate, so you might actually be focusing a bit differently than you think;
3) don't throw out the camera based on a $100 lens;
4) try some real-world pictures;

1) I agree
2) I agree
3) I agree
4) I agree

(yes, I know.. my comment doesn't add anything other than the fact that I think dhbailey is correct!)

Leo.

[mr.photoguy]

I don't sharpen any of my images in the camera you know.
All in Photoshop CS for me. I USM then (unsharp mask)..
http://www.pbase.com/brucescott/image/40660486

[Bsmooth]

I realize the lens isn't the greatest but I also have the 70-200F4 and some of those seem to be fairly good.Its just the inconsistancy,sometimes they seem good other times they don't.I was using a Olympus C-4000 and it seems sharper than this.Yes I know the sharpening is done in the camera on the Olympus,but its also done in my 20D in Parameter1.I've done a few "real" world shots also and I really do use it in low lighting conditions most of the time.Thats the type of photos I like the most.I'm using as many tools and options I can on the Camera;changing ISO's from 100 to 800 which is great on the fly.Just trying to make sure:the camera is ok.I have read on this forum about the soft focus and I see what they mean.I want tack sharp photos and so far I haven't really had any.This is only a tool and i thought it was quite an improvement over my Olympus C-4000,but I still have my doubts at this point.

Just as a addendum .Is there a comparable lens in the range of the 18-55 which is much sharper,without spending an arm or a leg?......Thinking.......maybe I just need to spend more time shooting with the 18-55.

[I Simonius]

MY FIRST REACTION WHEN I GOT THE 20D TOO!
Relax - here's what I learned
First - Sharpness isn't the same as resolution
Second - most cameras do in-camera sharpening to the pic so it look as you'd expect
Third - it is EXPECTED /ASSUMED that you will do post processing with this camera so do add a little sharpening to the pic. You got Adobe elemets with the camera go-filters-sharpen or unsharp mask, and asee how it looks

I took a pic of my cat with the 70-200 hand held with flash in RAW mode and I tell you the details was excellent, very good resolution, but would still need a little sharpening to make it visualy pleasing. The enc isn't sharpened but has lost quite alot of sharpness and colour compared to the RAW file as i had to convert to a small file jpeg to post here.
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62346

The point is the details IS there, you just need to work on it to make it LOOK as you would like.
No one tells you this when you're loookig to buy the camera - I know!

Also make usre you have the latest software -here's a useful link for updating software
http://software.canon-europe.com/Cameras/SLR_Cameras/EOS_20D10131.asp

Finally there have been reports of bad lenses, so do the above and then if you are concerned that you have a bad lens shoot a newspaper using a tripod, *square* to the camera, at f8, in GOOD light. Takwe it to your dealer if you think therte's a problem

BUT I think you will find as I did that it's a question of there being a difference between sharpness and resolution, and that a little post processing will do the trick

ps see
http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/shootout

[Wavy C]

I too am a new 20d owner coming from an Olympus compact (a c-5050) and share many of your feelings. After comparing lots of pictures from both cameras, I think the Olympus's 35mm-105mm f1.8 lens is just a really exceptionally sharp bit of glass. The detail and resolution is just amazing.

I doubt if the Canon 18mm-55mm is a match for it.

On the other hand the 20d, with its larger sensor, is much less noisy at higher iso settings and is much quicker to operate (focus, shutter lag). However the Canon needs a lot more care when focusing than the Olympus, so getting pictures slightly out of focus may account for some of the softness you mention.

[mr.photoguy]

This is one of my 18-55 shots, with USM added ..
http://www.pbase.com/brucescott/image/40106405.jpg

I shoot Raw, with my paramters set to all 0. So I do everything else in photoshop.
the 18-55 can take very good pictures, as it is a very good lens.
You just have to get used to it, and give it plenty light.

[Bsmooth]

Thanks! especially to Simon,Wavy C and Mr.Photoguy.You have somewhat calmed me to a degree where I was worried about the overall picture quality.I had no idea you HAD to process the pics.I did just finish a 2 day seminar with John Shaw and his almost entire second day was about processing in Photoshop.

I did just get Photoshop CS today so i should be installing it tonight I hope.john also metioned that the best sharpening addon( well there was two,but this one he said was excellent) was at Fred Miranda's site http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/ and it is called Intellisharp. basically it is run at the end after doing everything else.
Sounds like I need to practice a bit and see what i like in a photo,I still don't see why the picture can't be sharp as possible right out of the camera,maybe I just need a different mindset I guess.

[robertwgross]

I did just finish a 2 day seminar with John Shaw and his almost entire second day was about processing in Photoshop.

How was that seminar?

I have a couple of his books written some years ago when he was strictly film-based. Apparently he is now in the digital era.

---Bob Gross---

[Bsmooth]

The seminar was great,first day was strictly about taking pictures:Composure,exposure.All the things that apply to getting your pictures to be technically as well as aesthetically pleasing to the eye.Second day was mostly Photoshop although I wish he had spent more time on digital workflow,but overall I learned a lot.Now I just need to put it to good use!

[dhbailey]

The 20D is perfectly capable of taking extremely sharp pictures -- not all lenses will be able to take sharp pictures, though. Some will be able to take extremely sharp pictures but only under certain lighting conditions, while others will be able to take sharp pictures under wider conditions.

You do NOT have to post process all your photos to get them to be sharp.

[I Simonius]

The 20D is perfectly capable of taking extremely sharp pictures -- not all lenses will be able to take sharp pictures, though. Some will be able to take extremely sharp pictures but only under certain lighting conditions, while others will be able to take sharp pictures under wider conditions.

You do NOT have to post process all your photos to get them to be sharp.
Oh OK -Still learning :confused:

[Andy_T]

I had the exact other experience ... on my G2, I always used RAW and a workflow converting the shots to TIFF and applying USM in PS to get out the most in sharpness.

On my new 20D with Tamron 28-75/2.8 XR DI and Canon EF 50/1.8 I find that the pics straight out of the camera in large JPG are so sharp and detailed, that I can afford to be lazy and live without RAW :wink:

Now ... I know my results might be even better with RAW ... but just at the moment, the quality is so good that I rather have more leisure time at my hands not spend with RAW conversion. File size and storage space is an issue, as well.

What helps, of course, is paying more attention to technique ... how to get the things sharp that you want to have sharp. On the P+S, the large DOF from the small sensor gives the impression of an overall sharp picture.

On a DSLR you have to give more consideration to DOF and focus. I also use some manual focus M42 lenses (e.g. 300/4.5), and getting those pictures sharp using the 20D viewfinder without any focusing aids, is very difficult for me ... if the focus is slightly off, you'll notice immediately in the result, especially if you plan to enlarge the results (like in pictures of very distant small birds :wink: ).

Best regards,
Andy

[I Simonius]

I think the shots in jpg will be sharp if taken in the 'basic' range, as there is some in camera processing for these (I have read the manual now:-)) and agree that if there's no need for RAW why take all the extras time involved to post process?

However I haven't taken enough shots yet to examine what happens with jpgs out of the basic range (creative range I think it's referred to..)

[dhbailey]

There are settings for in-camera sharpening which can be adjusted in the parameters. The default parameters have the setting for sharpening either just in the middle or one up from the middle. I have read that the camera, even when the setting is all the way to the left, still does a minimal amount of sharpening. Moving the slider to the right increases the amount of sharpening.

[I Simonius]

There are settings for in-camera sharpening which can be adjusted in the parameters. The default parameters have the setting for sharpening either just in the middle or one up from the middle. I have read that the camera, even when the setting is all the way to the left, still does a minimal amount of sharpening. Moving the slider to the right increases the amount of sharpening.

are they?
It can only be adjusted both ways at the same time - I was guessing it was exposure bracketing - that still doesn't explain why its to the LHS to start theough - I can't do anything to make it go to the middle???

[Shaun_B]

I have had my 20D for about 6 months now and found that the 18-55 lens was fairly disappointing. I use a SIGMA 18-50 F2.8 DX as my standard lens now and have found that it is excellent, producing really sharp images which require little post production at £340 its worth every penny.
Have a look at www.s-bailey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk to see some of my images.

[dhbailey]

are they?
It can only be adjusted both ways at the same time - I was guessing it was exposure bracketing - that still doesn't explain why its to the LHS to start theough - I can't do anything to make it go to the middle???

You can't edit the Parameter 1 or Parameter 2 -- there are 3 Sets you can edit any which way you want, so you can have everything the same as in Parameter 1 or 2 but with just the sharpening changed.

[I Simonius]

You can't edit the Parameter 1 or Parameter 2 -- there are 3 Sets you can edit any which way you want, so you can have everything the same as in Parameter 1 or 2 but with just the sharpening changed.

Thanks David, it's still double dutch to me I'm afraid - I'll come back when I've read the manual.. again................

[rufis6]

For the very reasons mentioned above I dumped my Canon 20D on Ebay after upgrading from a 10D. I never got the sharpness from either that I got from my old Minota 7000i. And I am sick and tired of all the "pre-processing" and "post-processing," the in-camera sharping, the Photoshop processing with USM, high- pass sharpening and all the other tweaking necessary to get an image comparable with film. I now own a Leica R8 and all that nonsense is behind me. My photographs come out sharp and I am able to forget the other stuff that was foreign to to only a few months ago.

It is a fact that electronic devices in general and digital cameras in particular decrease by at least 50% in cost every year; in a similar period of time the quality increases by about 50%. I am told by Adobe that it takes a GOOD 22 mb camera to equal film camera results. So while I am not saying never, I am saying when: when the image quality is much, much better.

[I Simonius]

For the very reasons mentioned above I dumped my Canon 20D on Ebay after upgrading from a 10D. I never got the sharpness from either that I got from my old Minota 7000i. And I am sick and tired of all the "pre-processing" and "post-processing," the in-camera sharping, the Photoshop processing with USM, high- pass sharpening and all the other tweaking necessary to get an image comparable with film. I now own a Leica R8 and all that nonsense is behind me. My photographs come out sharp and I am able to forget the other stuff that was foreign to to only a few months ago.

It is a fact that electronic devices in general and digital cameras in particular decrease by at least 50% in cost every year; in a similar period of time the quality increases by about 50%. I am told by Adobe that it takes a GOOD 22 mb camera to equal film camera results. So while I am not saying never, I am saying when: when the image quality is much, much better.

hah! Call yourself a good comsumer?
"Bailif - whack his pee pee" (cheech and chong :lol: )