Which NAS?

[hypertech]

Ordinarily, I wouldn't think of this as a place for computer advice, but since many here run buisiness that require large reliable storage capacity, I thought it couldn't hurt.

I want a redundant backup system to use for computer backups and archive file storage. Eventually, the backup system will also include a couple USB or eSATA drives rotated to an offsite storage so I need that option.

I am thinking of setting up a RAID 5 NAS. I am not interested in a DIT PC based solution - I want a dedicated appliance. Reading reviews, the Thecus 3200 looks perfect for me but I can't find it for sale anywhere. I am also looking at the QNAP 409 but I don't like the price as much.

Does anyone have any experience with either of these or have a suggestion of somewhere else to look?

[LuckyRobJ]

Have you looked into the Drobo? www.drobo.com (http://www.drobo.com) I've heard lots of good things about it as it allows for future expansion.

[hypertech]

I looked at it a bit. It looks to be some sort of hybrid proprietary RAID5 system that requires an extra module for direct network support (I have plenty of cables and boxes under my desk already so if I can avoid adding an extra one, that would be good).

I suppose I could connect it to my iMac and share it out, but my preference is a network capable device so all my computers can access it as the repository for my backups.

[tim]

When you're using multiple PCs is about the only time I think photographers should consider a NAS. I can't recommend a particular unit, but I would personally use something more standard than a drobo - if it fails and the company isn't around you have a problem. Then again they're probably fine. Mirrored raid is good in that regard.

My main comment is about you saying "Eventually, the backup system will also include a couple USB or eSATA drives rotated to an offsite storage so I need that option.". You NEED to back up the entire NAS system to an external hard drive and store it offsite from the moment you start using the NAS. Remember a burgler can steal a NAS quite easily, and a fire can burn a raid array as well as a single drive. An external 1.5TB drive is cheap insurance.

If you don't really work from multiple PCs then an internal drive will be faster, and the external backup will give you redundancy.

[Palladium]

I use a Linksys NAS 200 with two 1 TB drives - you can also piggy back USB external drives. I generally do not keep the NAS 200 online 24/7.

I only turn it on when I know I need to use it.

[momalley]

I use a Linksys NAS 200 with two 1 TB drives - you can also piggy back USB external drives. I generally do not keep the NAS 200 online 24/7.

I only turn it on when I know I need to use it.
I use the Linksys NAS200 as well with 2 500GB drives in a RAID1 config. My unit is constantly powered on and have had no issues with the unit. I've actually installed a few others for friends and small businesses as well.

The NAS200 also has FTP capabilities built in which is nice. I'm sure the more expensive unit do as well. The NAS200 comes in at about $125 plus disk and can be configured as RAID0 or RAID1

[momalley]

Also, I use MOZY to backup my NAS. You can do this by mapping the NAS as a drive on you PC and purchasing a single MOZY license (Unlimited storage)

[grego]

Heard pretty good things (price/quality) about this one by D-Link

2-bay:
http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=509

If you need more, 4-bay:
http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=667

[tim]

Also, I use MOZY to backup my NAS. You can do this by mapping the NAS as a drive on you PC and purchasing a single MOZY license (Unlimited storage)

People outside the US beware that this might not be an economic or practical solution. If you have 500GB of data the initial backup could take days, and if you pay fees for using excessive amounts of bandwidth that could get expensive.

[momalley]

People outside the US beware that this might not be an economic or practical solution. If you have 500GB of data the initial backup could take days, and if you pay fees for using excessive amounts of bandwidth that could get expensive.
Very true. My ISP (Verizon Fios) does not limit or throttle my bandwidth. I also get very good upload speeds, however, initially it took about 3-4 weeks to get my 400GB of data uploaded.

[tim]

Four weeks! I wonder if you can mail mozy a hard drive for the initial backup?

[momalley]

Four weeks! I wonder if you can mail mozy a hard drive for the initial backup?
I only ran backups when the PC was idle for at least an hour, so basically overnights. I don't believe that you can send disc to them but the will send data back to you via CD/DVD if requested

[hypertech]

My main comment is about you saying "Eventually, the backup system will also include a couple USB or eSATA drives rotated to an offsite storage so I need that option.". You NEED to back up the entire NAS system to an external hard drive and store it offsite from the moment you start using the NAS. Remember a burgler can steal a NAS quite easily, and a fire can burn a raid array as well as a single drive. An external 1.5TB drive is cheap insurance.


All things in good time. For now, I need to replace my crappy small USB hard drives I've been using for backup with something more appropriate for our current setup and needs. If someone handed me a wad of cash, I would do everything right away. For now, I need to take care of the reliable on site portion and then I will add the off-site component when it is possible.

Heard pretty good things (price/quality) about this one by D-Link

2-bay:
http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=509

If you need more, 4-bay:
http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=667

I hadn't run across much info on that unit, I'll go check it out. One of the things I like about the 409 PRO is that I can put two drives in it on RAID 1 right now and then add a drive and go to RAID 5 and then increase the RAID 5 to teh fourth drive over time so I don't have to buy all 4 drives right now. I'll have to figure out if that unit can do that or if I need to set ip up with 4 right away.

People outside the US beware that this might not be an economic or practical solution. If you have 500GB of data the initial backup could take days, and if you pay fees for using excessive amounts of bandwidth that could get expensive.

Interesting idea. I don't have an upload limit. It could take a long time, but if I could schedule it so it runs in the evenings or something, I don't really care if it takes a couple days to do a full transfer. Once a week is probably a reasonable schedule for updating off site storage.

[tim]

All things in good time. For now, I need to replace my crappy small USB hard drives I've been using for backup with something more appropriate for our current setup and needs. If someone handed me a wad of cash, I would do everything right away. For now, I need to take care of the reliable on site portion and then I will add the off-site component when it is possible.

You're playing with fire there. If you can afford a NAS you can afford backups. Or, I should say, there's no point storing data unless you have backups. Seriously.

[hypertech]

Seriously, I'm setting up on-site before I do off-site. I'd rather turn the fire down to simmer than leave it at full boil till I can afford both. The primary purpose for getting this thing up is to be the backup for my main computers. Just having it (even if it is in the same building) is a huge step towards where I want to e with data management.

I must say I like what I saw on the MOZY site though. As soon as I have a full centralized backup, I could kick that off and I'll be set.

Right now I am leaning towards the QNAP 409 PRO with 2 Samsung F1 1TB drives set to RAID 1 to get it online. It would be a lot cheaper to do a 2 bay unit, but I'm concerned there won't be enough long term storage with only 1TB available.

[lens pirate]

Let me second the Dlink NAS devices. I use the 4 drive bay one and it is awesome! Great build quality. Fantastic management utility and lots of features. Best of breed in the price range.

Frys still has the 4 drive device for 379.00

FANTASTIC! I also have a promise unit and the Dlink SMOKES it.

[hypertech]

Does it support RAID migration or at least expansion if it won't let you change levels? Or did you put 4 drives in yours right away?

Are you running 4TB or something else? How is it for noise? Which drives did you pick?

[tim]

Seriously, I'm setting up on-site before I do off-site. I'd rather turn the fire down to simmer than leave it at full boil till I can afford both. The primary purpose for getting this thing up is to be the backup for my main computers. Just having it (even if it is in the same building) is a huge step towards where I want to e with data management.

I must say I like what I saw on the MOZY site though. As soon as I have a full centralized backup, I could kick that off and I'll be set.

Right now I am leaning towards the QNAP 409 PRO with 2 Samsung F1 1TB drives set to RAID 1 to get it online. It would be a lot cheaper to do a 2 bay unit, but I'm concerned there won't be enough long term storage with only 1TB available.

This is different from what you said originally. To start with you said you want to access data over your LAN, now you're saying it's a backup. Which is it? RAID isn't a backup solution. A virus or a dumb user can delete files from a RAID array as easily as from a single drive. If you do your image processing on one machine just get an internal drive and share it for occasional access from other machines. Performance will be better, a LAN increases latency and slows things down.

At least once a week, on this forum or another, I see people asking for help because they deleted their files, or a drive failed, or occasionally because of fire or theft. These people either lose all their data, or they pay thousands of dollars for a specialist recovery service. Do you want to be one of these people?

[hypertech]

I'm noticing a pattern in your posts here and in other threads. From your thread count and sign up date, I' am sure you have lots of valuable insights to share, but I am not an idiot so please don't write to me like I am one.

RAID is an excellent choice for a backup media. Hard drives fail - I have gone through many. Using a RAID as my primary storage for a backup solves that problem because if one fails, I can replace it without losing my primary backup. You are right that robbers show up, places burn down, accidents happen, and viruses exist. That's why you duplicate the backup in a second location.

I have an iMac and laptops - I have no machine to add a slurry of internal hard drives. On top of that, I have no desire for a 3' tall tower in my house. I had one of them once and I don't want another big, loud, hot, energy pig computer around (and I don't have a server closet for rack mounted stuff either).

The primary and first use for this storage will be for backing up my computers. After that, I will get some sort of off-site solution figured out. I want it large because I intend to expand its use for holding recent but inactive client files for a period of months before I move them to read only storage (DVD or something else). But, until I get the off site part arranged, client files will all remain on my computers so they are located in two places.

[tim]

Good luck with your "backup solution".

[johncolby]

I currently use the gigabit 2 bay D-link DNS-323, and can second the best-in-class rating for the D-links NASs. $350 total for the enclosure + 2 Hitachi 1 TB 32/7200 drives (tax/shipping included) is amazing. There is also an enormous amount of community support that lets you add all sorts of functionality like SSH/SFTP access, Transmission BitTorrent client, web server w/ PHP, etc. I researched all the available options in this price range, and the DNS-323 is clearly the best. Read the reviews at Newegg (mine is one of the top ones under "John"): DNS-323 Reviews on Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16822155003)

I do have to reiterate something that Tim is saying, however. It seems like the OP understands pretty well, but many people don't so it's always worth pointing out (I blame the device marketing departments here): RAID 1 is not a backup option. Drive failure is only one cause of data loss. Others include viruses, untrained users, or failure/corruption by the RAID controller itself - and in these situations RAID 1 will not protect your data! Even though it's offered on many consumer devices (this one included), it is a much better idea to simply set up a Time Machine style incremental backup (or take the extra step and get a third external drive to do backups in addition to RAID mirroring). Unless you demand the 24/7 uptime for a business, RAID 1 is usually more trouble for consumers than it is worth.

[joeseph]

RAID is an excellent choice for a backup media.
RAID is an excellent choice for storage media.
You aren't helping the discussion by confusing the terminology for reliability with the solution required to have multiple copies of data for redundancy.

[Paul_A]

I've been happy with my Synology DS408, which allows my Mac and PCs to access files without problems. I considered the DROBO, but decided the DS408 better suited my needs.

[strmrdr]

Best nas resource on the net.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/
A nas is not backup a nas is network attached storage.
Tape is backup.

[strmrdr]

btw I have a server on the bench I'm spending all night rebuilding because 2 drives failed at once on a raid 5 array so they can make payroll later today.

[hypertech]

I've done tape a couple times in the past and I'm not going that route this time for lots of reasons.

It sucks when a hard drive fails - it really sucks when two fail at the same time. I had been considering buying the drives from different vendors hoping they come out of different manufacturing batches to decrease the likelihood of a simultaneous failure. Now I'm definitely going that route.

At the moment, I have had to put this project on hold because I learned that time machine (which I intended to use with this) has some problems connecting to any network storage other than Apple's time capsule. Some people have found a way to make it work, but I'm still looking for evidence of a restore from one of those backups. It doesn't do me any good to buy one and convince it to back up to the NAS only to find out later I can't restore from it.

I also need to find out if that is true, if I can do RAID1 and then pull a drive from the NAS and put it into an external enclosure for a restore if needed.

[neil_g]

RAID is an excellent choice for a backup media.

WRONG.

on more than one occasion ive had raid controllers fail (server ones at that, dont think a "home" part will be more reliable than that) and every time its nuked all of the attached disks. which is why we have tape backups on our servers.

i agree with tims points to be honest. youre going about this in the wrong order imo.

[lens pirate]

I think people are missing the point here.

For home users that manage their own data or that of a SMALL business, the back up solution can be different. You need to weigh the cost of complete loss of data against the cost and effort of good back up.

No back up system is good, if it is not used and tested regularly. Tape back up falls into this. Tapes fail at least as often as hard drives and they wear out!

Thats why large operations have SKILLED back up operators to manage that task.

Home use is different. Having data in two places is often enough. I have fire insurance and loss of data in the event my home burns is the least of my worries.

So for me.... I have two drives in my system. A system drive and a scratch drive. I make regular Windows Vista complete back ups to the scratch drive.
Then copy those out to one of my NAS devices. The NAS devices are located at different ends of my home.

So the NAS devices become media for backup. Currently then my data resides in 4 places.

1. The running system
2. The scratch disk
3 NAS 1, 4 disk RAID 5
4. NAS 2, 2 disk mirrored RAID

The raid drives are somewhat of a paradox. By virture of depending on more than one drive they are MORE likely to suffer a failure at any given time. But because they have redundancy are less likely to fail totally and loose data.
They are far more likely to work for me than a Tape system that I won't use properly, do test restores with and properly rotate and retire tapes.

Blanket statements whose sole purpose is to hang on to some data geeks exactly nuanced technical verbiage are pointless here.

I surely understand the distinctions being made, but to me, my external RAID devices are in point of fact...... " BACK UP MEDIA"

[neil_g]

just to clarify i only mentioned tape because its what we use at work to back up our raid servers and SAN. the tapes get replaced regularly etc .personally i wouldnt use it at home.

ideally for home use you want 2 external disks of different makes (to rule out bad batch of disk issues) to sync between. one of which is moved offsite and/or stored in a fireproof safe.

I surely understand the distinctions being made, but to me, my external RAID devices are in point of fact...... " BACK UP MEDIA"

chances are you wont lose your data as like you say you have multiple copies. but again to clarify.. RAID should not be used as a SINGLE point of backup.

[lens pirate]

RAID should not be used as a SINGLE point of backup.


Nothing should be used as a SINGLE point of backup. But if you are going to have a Single point of external back up. RAID5 is a good choice. Far better than a single drive. In terms of practical use in the real world probably better than tape or optical media. Since backups will be easy and fast enough that it might actually happen.

[neil_g]

no i agree nothing should be a single point, but people are believing that RAID is the answer to their backup problems and its not.

disagree about RAID5 over a single drive though, id put them both in the same camp.

[lens pirate]

On a side note since my first post in this thread this morning I have made a complete system back up and I am about 4 mins away from having it copied out to my two NAS devices.

I don't want to tempt the GODS. Anyone that has read this thread is now far more likely to face drive failure. The GODS have a sense of humor.

[lens pirate]

disagree about RAID5 over a single drive though, id put them both in the same camp.


Hard to pin down isn't it. A four drive raid array is at least 4 times more likley to fail at any given time. But normally is recoverable.

A single drive can just fail.

There is a trade off for sure.

[H0LLYW00D]

I have the original DLink NAS and its setup was easy and does everything i need it to without any issues and is upgradable to 1TB drives if i need to.

[johncolby]

At the moment, I have had to put this project on hold because I learned that time machine (which I intended to use with this) has some problems connecting to any network storage other than Apple's time capsule. Some people have found a way to make it work, but I'm still looking for evidence of a restore from one of those backups. It doesn't do me any good to buy one and convince it to back up to the NAS only to find out later I can't restore from it.

I also need to find out if that is true, if I can do RAID1 and then pull a drive from the NAS and put it into an external enclosure for a restore if needed.

Hey again hypertech...

Most Linux-based NASs can work fine with Apple's Time Machine...you just have to install the open source version of Bonjour. It's called Avahi, and can easily be installed with only a single command with most package management systems. It makes sense that this will work, because Time Machine has to work on Apple's own NAS/router, the Time Capsule.

To answer your second question: It depends.
- Sometimes no: If the RAID controller uses a proprietary file system, etc.. You'll hear horror stories of people trying to track down a replacement RAID controller because theirs failed and the device is no longer supported by the manufacturer because they went out of business 4 years ago...
- Sometimes (almost) yes: If the RAID controller doesn't do any non-standard stuff, then you can plug the drive into an external enclosure and access your files. It won't be an exact restore, per se, but you can get your files back. (Ex: The D-Link DNS-323 uses the Linux EXT2 file system, so I could easily plug one RAIDed drive into a Linux box (or Parallels or VMWare Fusion on my mac) and access the files.

But if all you want to do is make a Time Machine backup of your system, then all you really need is a USB hard drive. One copy of the data will be on your system, and one copy on the external drive. Getting a multiple bay NAS device is most useful when multiple computers and media devices all need to access the same files. Then, one copy of the data will be on NAS drive #1, and a second copy will be on NAS drive #2. Like I said in my previous post, you can set up a Time Machine style incremental backup to do this instead of messing with RAID. And of course an extra off site backup is always best.

Here's my setup, which might be a useful example for you:
My multiple macs are all set to use my D-Link NAS as their Time Machine target. (Since I'm on the go a lot with my laptop, I actually recently stopped doing this part in favor of an external USB for Time Machine...maximizes space on the NAS too) Then, I also have a separate area on the NAS where all my media files are stored, and this area is set to incrementally back up to the second drive in the NAS. Works like a charm!

[tim]

Home use is different. Having data in two places is often enough. I have fire insurance and loss of data in the event my home burns is the least of my worries.

My house and contents is mostly just stuff. Stuff can be replaced, usually with new stuff which is nicer and newer.

My photos are my memories, or are at least there to remind me of the good times. To me, they're priceless.

Oh plus i'm a professional photographer, if I lost peoples photos before they got them i'd be in deep doo doo.