Tips for high ISO noise reduction?

[john s]

Can any of you more experienced Canon 1D mk11 N users provide some guidance for me?

For the past few years I have been using a mixture of my 20d and my 5d for ice hockey shots in one of the most poorly lit rinks in the UK. Typical of the settings I am having to use are ISO 3200 and with my 70-200 IS f 2.8 I am lucky to get 1/250th of a second. Even then many of the images need to be lightened in PS.

The 5d, I guess due to full frame and photosites being less densely packed, has far less noise than the 20d.

So this weekend I tried out a 1d mk11 N that I have just bought and of course find that the noise at ISO3200 is as bad (perhaps worse) than my 20d.

Now there are many additional settings on the 1d that I don't have on the 20d and I would be delighted to hear of the settings an experienced user of one of these would use. I appreciate few of you have lighting this bad to contend with but any help would be appreciated.

For example, is the in built noise reduction worth using?

I note that there are several "picture styles". Should I set the camera with the minimum processing? I guess I am referring in particular to some of the styles where sharpening is applied and I guess this will just make my noise worse?

I would like to ensure that at ISO3200 all my shots are over exposed slightly, but that would mean dropping to 1/160th and I suspect the amount of motion freezing sharp shots would be limited (its bad enough at 1/250th!!)


Thanks in anticipation for some pearls of wisdom!


John

[DC Fan]

Try a noise reduction program such as Noiseware (http://www.imagenomic.com/) or Neat Image. (http://www.neatimage.com/index.html?d75)

[jamesb84]

John, good to see another essex based tog here (I used to be in Essex before I moved to the west country...Billericay Town FC was my saturday home)

Could you post an image or 2 with your EXIF intact...there might be a few ways to adjust your noise by changing your exposure settings. Also, where are you shooting? Given your location, I guess it might be the Riverside in Chelmsford (which is like a dungeon anyway)...

However, as I said, if you can post a pic or 2 then I'll have a look and see what I think.

James.

[dlpasco]

I've been shooting in dimly lit rinks for a few years. I am using Lightroom for noise reduction and am more or less satisfied with the results. I've even had very usable shots at ISO 6400 as long as the exposure it right. I shoot only in raw/manual and overexpose slightly. If the exposure is under, even by a little, the shots are really noisy.

Here is one example - I think the exif is intact. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=625143

[john s]

Thanks for the help so far guys

Yes I already use neat image for noise reduction on my 5d and 20d but what I was trying to do is get the 1D to provide a better start image after which I may well still need to use the noise reduction software. My concern is that the settings on the camera are making the problem worse.

I will upload some images later this evening as suggested and any advice on the settings will be appreciated.

I am shooting jpegs simply because of the number i get through in a game ....maybe 150-200 and the extra time would be significant?


James, I would love to have the lighting at Chelmsford! No my home rink is Romford (although Chelmsford is closer to my Burnham home) and to add to the excitement I shoot through netting for two of the three periods!.....not that this is always obvious from the results I have with the 5d.

I am convinced these images on the 1DMk11 N should be superior to those on my 20d and will appreciate any observations made on the images I will post later tonight.

Thanks all

[jamesb84]

Thanks for the help so far guys

Yes I already use neat image for noise reduction on my 5d and 20d but what I was trying to do is get the 1D to provide a better start image after which I may well still need to use the noise reduction software. My concern is that the settings on the camera are making the problem worse.

You mentioned that you picked up the 1D used, that could be an explanation...when I got my 1D the custom/personal functions were all over the place, there are only a few that could have an impact, but if they're a bit odd, then it would perhaps explain.

Changing those settings will require EOS Utility and a firewire cable which you may or may not have. EOS Utility will be on your CD for the 5D but a firewire cable may have to be a quick purchase for you.

James, I would love to have the lighting at Chelmsford! No my home rink is Romford (although Chelmsford is closer to my Burnham home) and to add to the excitement I shoot through netting for two of the three periods!.....not that this is always obvious from the results I have with the 5d.

I am convinced these images on the 1DMk11 N should be superior to those on my 20d and will appreciate any observations made on the images I will post later tonight.

Thanks all

Ah, a Raiders fan/photographer. Yeah, Romford is not too good, and the rink has gotten into a bit of disrepair last time I heard. Can't be too many good shooting locations there either can there?

Yeah, the 1D should give you better images than the 20D, so if you can upload, then we'll all have a look.

James.

[john s]

Yeh a Raiders fan for the last 18 years and their photographer for the last 5.

The rink is a little run down, but it's just like home after all these years (but with worse lighting). I either shoot through the nets at either end or from the penalty box without the luxury of any protection from stick or pucks. It adds to the excitement!

Yes I think the previous owner of my 1D N has changed a number of the custom functions and it is these that I am hoping are presently poorly aligned to my needs.

I thought most of these could be changed from the menu screen, but take your word for it that they need to be uploaded from a PC. I shall load up the various software tonight.

I have never had to load an image on photobucket or similar with the exif data intact. Excuse my ignorance but does that involve anything swanky or am I doing it normally and I just didn't realise??

Thanks again for your advice

[jamesb84]

Yeh a Raiders fan for the last 18 years and their photographer for the last 5.

The rink is a little run down, but it's just like home after all these years (but with worse lighting). I either shoot through the nets at either end or from the penalty box without the luxury of any protection from stick or pucks. It adds to the excitement!

Yeah, it's been a while since I was at Romford, but I think I know where you mean. Bit of a "work with what you got" rink then I guess! But, good for "excitement".

Yes I think the previous owner of my 1D N has changed a number of the custom functions and it is these that I am hoping are presently poorly aligned to my needs.

I thought most of these could be changed from the menu screen, but take your word for it that they need to be uploaded from a PC. I shall load up the various software tonight.

Custom Functions can be altered from the menu screen, but Personal Functions can only be switched on or off using the menu, if you want to adjust them then you'll need EOS Utility.

I have never had to load an image on photobucket or similar with the exif data intact. Excuse my ignorance but does that involve anything swanky or am I doing it normally and I just didn't realise??

Thanks again for your advice

I haven't got photobucket so i'm not sure, however, generally speaking, most programs/apps leave EXIF intact. If photobucket allows you to embed IPTC data/tags then it would be a safe bet that it'll leave EXIF on as well...however, someone else may need to clarify that!

James.

[john s]

Right

Just a couple of images from my first game using the 1Dmk11N

This is one without in camera noise reduction

http://s376.photobucket.com/albums/oo203/johnwgscott/vs%20swindon%20110109/?action=view&current=_IC_5565.jpg


This one has in camera noise reduction

http://s376.photobucket.com/albums/oo203/johnwgscott/vs%20swindon%20110109/?action=view&current=_IC_5664.jpg

As mentioned in the thread above, they are both noisier than I was expecting and I would say significantly inferior to images produced by my 5d.

Is the exif data still attached to these images?

If so any clues to custom settings that could benefit changing?

Thanks again

John

[clarence]

Just a couple of images from my first game using the 1Dmk11N

This is one without in camera noise reduction

Is the exif data still attached to these images?

Here's the EXIF for your first photo...


Make - Canon
Model - Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
DateTime - 2009:01:11 16:42:18
WhitePoint - 0.31
PrimaryChromaticities - 0.64
YCbCrCoefficients - 0.30
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 312
ExposureTime - 1/200 seconds
FNumber - 2.80
ExposureProgram - Manual control
ISOSpeedRatings - 3200
ExifVersion - 0221
DateTimeOriginal - 2009:01:11 16:42:18
DateTimeDigitized - 2009:01:11 16:42:18
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/197 seconds
ApertureValue - F 2.83
ExposureBiasValue - 0
MeteringMode - Center weighted average
Flash - Flash not fired, compulsory flash mode
FocalLength - 135 mm
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - Uncalibrated (-1)
ExifImageWidth - 3504
ExifImageHeight - 2336
InteroperabilityOffset - 4566
FocalPlaneXResolution - 3084.51
FocalPlaneYResolution - 3089.95
FocalPlaneResolutionUnit - Inch
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Manual
White Balance - Auto
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Maker Note (Vendor): -
Macro mode - Normal
Self timer - Off
Quality - Fine
Flash mode - Not fired
Sequence mode - Single or Timer
Focus mode - AI Servo
Image size - Large
Easy shooting mode - Manual
Digital zoom - None
Contrast - Normal
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Low , -32769
ISO Value - 32767
Metering mode - Center weighted
Focus type - Auto
AF point selected -
Exposure mode - Manual
Focal length - 70 - 200 mm (1 mm)
Flash activity - Not fired
Flash details -
Focus mode 2 - 65535
White Balance - Auto
Sequence number - 0
Flash bias - 0 EV
Subject Distance - 0
Image Type - Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Firmware Version - Firmware Version 1.1.2
Owner Name - Jon Speed
Camera Serial Number - 421839 (000628623)
File number - 001 - 0821
Thumbnail: -
Compression - 6 (JPG)
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
JpegIFOffset - 4714
JpegIFByteCount - 7544

[clarence]

Wow, I ran it though Neat Image (http://www.neatimage.com/download.html) using several of my usual settings (then auto color and auto contrast in picasa) but it completely slaughters the seats in the background and the cool, dingy skate marks on the ice.

[DDCSD]

i usually print my shots if I want to get rid of the noise. ;)

[john s]

So does that exif data reveal settings that may produce greater noise at high ISO settings in a poorly lit ice rink?

Is there a way I can improve the noise in the image by altering some of these settings? I suspect I will still have to Neat Image to clean them up a bit further but just wanted to make sure I wasn't guilty of a basic setting error which was making the problem worse.


Is the Mark 111 much better when it comes to high ISO noise?

Clarence. I would be interested to learn of your "standard" settings. I tend to let the programme run on auto so any tweaks you have learned would be useful.

Thanks

[jamesb84]

So does that exif data reveal settings that may produce greater noise at high ISO settings in a poorly lit ice rink?

Is there a way I can improve the noise in the image by altering some of these settings? I suspect I will still have to Neat Image to clean them up a bit further but just wanted to make sure I wasn't guilty of a basic setting error which was making the problem worse.


Is the Mark 111 much better when it comes to high ISO noise?

Clarence. I would be interested to learn of your "standard" settings. I tend to let the programme run on auto so any tweaks you have learned would be useful.

Thanks

Well, the only difference I would have gone for would be for spot metering rather than center-weighted. I would leave the high ISO noise reduction on the camera on.

James.

[john s]

Well, the only difference I would have gone for would be for spot metering rather than center-weighted. I would leave the high ISO noise reduction on the camera on.

James.


Thanks James

Would that make any difference bearing in mind I am always shooting in manual mode with f2.8 and either 250th or 200th of a second? I think all it will do is give me a different reading in the viewfinder as to whether the camera thinks the image will be over/under/correctly exposed.

[clarence]

So does that exif data reveal settings that may produce greater noise at high ISO settings in a poorly lit ice rink?

No. IMHO, your exposure settings are fine...
f/2.8, 1/200", ISO 3200.

You're maxed out on aperture and you're maxed out on ISO. On this particular shot, there isn't much movement, so if you have IS, a monopod, a tripod, a steady hand, and/or a series of repeated shots, you could probably drop the shutter speed to 1/100 and used ISO 1600. Or maybe even 1/50" at ISO 800. But as soon anybody moved, you need to be back at ISO 3200.

Clarence. I would be interested to learn of your "standard" settings. I tend to let the programme run on auto so any tweaks you have learned would be useful.

With Neat Image, most of the time I use: Input Image tab... Open input image... Device Noise profile tab... Auto profile (it detects my 40D from the EXIF)... Noise filter settings tab... Filter preset: Advanced: Filter and sharpen slightly out of focus image... Output image tab... Apply... Save output image.

Rarely, I use the "strongly out of focus image" or "very strong noise" settings. But on your photo, everything really seemed to (overly) blur out the ice swirls and the empty stadium seats in your background.

[clarence]

I would leave the high ISO noise reduction on the camera on.
If you use in-camera noise reduction, then you might want to also capture RAW. I find that you have a lot more control over the results by using post-processing noise reduction software.

Plus, in camera NR slows down your framerate, so if you're shooting sports, you might notice the camera bogging down, especially if you're capturing RAW, too.

[jamesb84]

If you use in-camera noise reduction, then you might want to also capture RAW. I find that you have a lot more control over the results by using post-processing noise reduction software.

Plus, in camera NR slows down your framerate, so if you're shooting sports, you might notice the camera bogging down, especially if you're capturing RAW, too.

I'd agree with that. If you're not sending photos out from the game, then take the time, shoot in RAW and PP them.

I dont think the NR slows it down too noticeably...remember, we're shooting at 8.5fps here to start with. So even if it's slowed down to 6fps, that's still the same speed as the 40D.

James.

[clarence]

I dont think the NR slows it down too noticeably...remember, we're shooting at 8.5fps here to start with. So even if it's slowed down to 6fps, that's still the same speed as the 40D.

Ah, you're right. Sadly I'm unfamiliar with the Mark IIN.

I only have a 40D, which with in-camera noise reduction, the continuous shot buffer at 6.5fps drops from 50-89 continuous frames down to only 6 or 7 (RAW or JPG)...
http://www.komar.org/faq/camera/canon-40d-versus-rebel-xti-400d/continuous-shooting-sound/