How to price for weddings?

[ashley.stalker]

I am fairly new to weddings. I have done 6 so far in the last year and not am beginning my 2nd year. I loved it, but since I was new and learning (still am) I wonder how I should price. I want to make sure I have quality equipment and lighting so they can pay me for what I feel like I deserve.

I don't want to jump my pricing too high or the referrals that people gave will be useless since they are expecting to pay in the same kind of bracket.

This is what I am using to give you an idea...
2 - 5Ds (own one, borrow the other from a friend)
Canon 50 1.2 (own)
Canon 24-70 2.8 (rent, looking to buy soon)
Canon 70-200 2.8 (rent)

Then I have a wide-angle 15mm but don't use it that often.

and I might also rent Canon 17-55 2.8

Lighting, I am still trying to figure out what softbox, and an additional flash off camera. But for the moment I am using a Metz 45 that I bounce off wall/ceilings.

Last year my prices had 4 different packages, but will only show 2 so you get the idea what I am offering...
1st Package:
Disk of images in color and black and white
6 hours of coverage with 2 photographers
$995.00

2nd Package:
12x12 Queensberry Album with 14 overlay matted pages (less expensive cover)
Disk of images
6 hours of coverage with 2 photographers
1 8x10 print
2 5x7 prints
$1,295

_____________________

Now I am thinking for this year:
1st Package:
Disk of images in color and black and white
8 hours of coverage with 2 photographers
$1,395.00

2nd Package:
12x12 Queensberry Album with 14 overlay matted pages (less expensive cover)
Disk of images
8 hours of coverage with 2 photographers
$1,995.00

I think I have good images, but I also think everyone thinks that about themselves. I am my harshest critic and hope I continue to get better and learn more. You can see my images at...

http://whitebalancephotos.com (http://whitebalancephotos.com/)

I still need to edit my last wedding and need to upload the other two I did on my main site, but you can see what I have done with my first three weddings to give a value of my worth, also you can check out my blog. I have two on there that aren't on my main site...

http://web.me.com/brotherdrew/Blog/H...26_Gareth.html (http://web.me.com/brotherdrew/Blog/Home/Entries/2008/11/30_Wedding%3A_Dusti_%26_Gareth.html)

http://web.me.com/brotherdrew/Blog/H...%26_David.html (http://web.me.com/brotherdrew/Blog/Home/Entries/2008/8/20_Wedding%3A_Chlesea_%26_David.html)

Don't be too harsh, but I do appreciate honestly. :lol:

So my concerns are these:
Do you think that this is too much higher than my last years pricing?
I know my pricing is NOT asking too much, I have an extensive excel spreadsheet dictating where each cent is going and giving a fair price per hour that I think the experience I have or lack of deserves.
I can't image charging lower with what I would like to accomplish with each wedding.
But then I rather do a wedding and gain referrals & experience at a lower price than not to have weddings at all.
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[Aszental]

just a side note... the 17-55 will not work on the 5d. Its an EF lens... you need an ef-s lens.

[Tommy]

just a side note... the 17-55 will not work on the 5d. Its an EF lens... you need an ef-s lens.

And a side note for you... the 17-55 is an EF-S lens and he needs an EF lens... ;)

[ashley.stalker]

I double checked the rental list and they says it is a EF lens, but it must be a typo. Good to know.

I rented the 16-35 before and was great for what I needed it for, so I will be covered.

[tim]

Your photography's good for someone who's done six weddings. My suggestion is you spend some time looking at other photographers websites, concentrating on the couple/wedding party photos.

You're pricing the albums WAY too low. Queensberry are a high end album, the rule of thumb is to mark them up about three times cost - that includes your time to design it. At the very least give some value to your design time.

As for absolute pricing you should look at other photographers in your area and set your pricing based on that.

24-105 F4L is a great general purpose lens on a 5D. You'll want a fast prime as well, for low light situations where F4 won't cut it. I wish you could get fast primes with IS.

[ultimakf7]

You've got some great images in your gallery.

[ashley.stalker]

You're pricing the albums WAY too low. Queensberry are a high end album, the rule of thumb is to mark them up about three times cost - that includes your time to design it. At the very least give some value to your design time.

I know what you are saying, but here is my reasoning.

I feel like I have to charge lower since I am new. And I feel because I don't have a lot of weddings under my belt people don't have complete trust in you (though the few weddings I have done the clients have been great for the most part), but they might go with someone who has more experience but less creativity.

I do stress the albums are amazing (and amazingly expensive), but they don't really get it via internet, e-mail, phone. In person they are usually impressed.

The people who charge a lot do they start off that way? I can't imagine booking a wedding right now having my wedding packages at $3,000 -$5,000.

It seems most newbees charge around $1,000 - $1,500

For the nicer packages I offer should I offer them Queensberry, but then offer a lower end album? I just hate not to use the best, because that is what potential referrals will see and I only want to offer the best, so eventually I can charge more for it. Also I hate it if they don't get an album, but know I can't control that.

[tim]

Since you're new the way i'd probably do it is price things separately. Have a price on your website for coverage. Any product, such as a CD, DVD, book, or album is extra. How you divide it up is your call, but don't undervalue the albums or the time it takes to create them. You HAVE to have samples to sell albums. I have an 18x12" red leather Queensberry digital/magazine style album, that thing is impressive. I have a 14x10" matted album too, and a few smaller ones.

You might start with something like:
- 6-8 hours coverage $600
- High res CD $400
- Printed bound book $250 (or $500, personally I charge more)
- Queensberry album from $1000.

Doing it this way gives people a low cost option for a book, but doesn't devalue the real albums. You might choose not to do books, I don't, as I don't think they'll last long, whereas albums will.

My starting price for a 20 page (page = side) Queensberry album is NZ$1800, which until recently when our exchange rate took a dive was about US$1400. Now that's worth about US$1000. My average album size is 30-40 pages, and my per price page is about 1/20th the cost of the base 20 page album.

[tim]

I feel like I have to charge lower since I am new. And I feel because I don't have a lot of weddings under my belt people don't have complete trust in you (though the few weddings I have done the clients have been great for the most part), but they might go with someone who has more experience but less creativity.

Or someone with more experience and more creativity. There's plenty of smart, talented people around.

[ashley.stalker]

Or someone with more experience and more creativity. There's plenty of smart, talented people around.

I don't think you understand what I mean. I know there are more experienced and more creative people than me. I am starting out. That is why I don't charge more. Some people who are just content with what they do and stop growing and progressing in my own opinion I see a lack of passion for what they do than other photographers. Don't get me wrong, I think there are tons of photographers out there that should charge $3000 -$5000 and up. Pictures are so important and hope one day I will be at that level.

[ashley.stalker]

Since you're new the way i'd probably do it is price things separately. Have a price on your website for coverage. Any product, such as a CD, DVD, book, or album is extra.

That is good advice, I have thought about doing it that way, but how I was going to do it seemed too confusing.

That does make it simpler and give the client a lower price.

I need to get on creating my sample albums now that I have a portfolio.

For sample albums do you mix your wedding images, or show a complete wedding?

[tim]

IMHO sample albums should always show a single complete wedding. If I saw a photographer who showed me albums with a mix of weddings i'd assume they weren't good enough to put together an album from a single wedding.

[ashley.stalker]

That is what I would imagine too, but my husband thought I should do a album with all the "best hits" you could say.

Two weddings I did they were Mormon weddings so there was no ceremony shots. And one wedding the bride & groom were in a receiving line the whole time at the reception except for cake and their first dance. I guess my "complete" weddings I will create into sample albums.

[tim]

Ignore your husband on this one. Wait until you have a complete wedding until you do an album. I waited until I had a wedding I was really happy with to do my really big album... that took me 4 years from when I started. If i'd done it earlier i'd have sold more large albums... you only sell what you show.

[form]

This is exactly the situation I'm in, 1st year wedding photographer with limited equipment and budget oriented pricing. In Las Vegas, I don't know if I could charge more than $100 for the first hour and $75 each additional hour for all retouched images on DVD disc. I need more money, there's no doubt....I need more money to afford more equipment. But I don't feel comfortable charging more. I would like to work with another photographer.

[ashley.stalker]

Poor husband. I ask for advice, think about what he said and usually don't go with what he said. LOL

Also if I do separate pricing, I edit each photo before I upload a gallery to show them. That is why I always included a CD, which I was accounting for my time for editing it, but didn't charge very much for the abum. I guess if they don't get a CD my pricing for albums should be higher so I get paid more for my time and in the end it will balance out.

I think I will do separate pricing.

This is what I am thinking. I have a range I haven't decided on yet.:confused: Comments are helpful and encouraged.

$750.00-825.00 for two photographers up to 8 hours of coverage?
$400-420 for disk of photos?
10x7 20 Page matted basic album $1000?
12x12 30 page matted basic album $1495?

[tim]

Think of your coverage prices as paying for your equipment, your experience, and your time to do proofs. Think of CD as paying for your time to do proper processing (which to me is just white balance, exposure, and things that can be done in a RAW converter). The album price has to cover your time as well as the cost of the album.

With albums I would suggest a 20 page album as your base, then perhaps $50 per page after that. Per page fees vary between photographers, some charge $20, some charge $120. Page = side, the same as a dictionary is numbered. Doing things this way you can keep the base price of the album relatively low, people who want a nice small album get something reasonable, but people with more money to spend upgrade, get a nicer album, and you make more money to compensate you for the design time and extra costs involved.

[collierportraits]

Ok, let me add a wrinkle. I always thought it was crazy that we say 8 hours or something like that and place a time value on ourselves. So what, we get to 8 hours and the bride and groom are 30 min from leaving the reception and we say, "Sorry Mrs. Mother, my time is up and for another $x, I'll stay an additional hour.." IMO, NO ONE should be forced to make any decision of that kind the day of the wedding. Look, you've already killed your day, what's another 30 min to an hour?

In my area, 70% of the weddings take less than 8 hours. Several go for longer and several go shorter, but most are in that 6-8 hour block of time. So why not forget exactly how many hours you work and focus on what they are going to get. Then some weddings will be shorter and some longer but you eliminate the stress of the B&G trying to get "leaving" shots before the Photog. leaves. Now, there are exceptions to this, of course. When it's a party hearty, and the B&G won't remember leaving sometime in the morning, well, they don't need me there for all of that. But maybe it's just my area, but to me it seems better to focus on the service and not seem so finite with the $.

Do as Tim suggests, and focus your charged amount on the album with so much extra for each extra page. That way, the wedding day is stress free, and they think of you in better terms and frankly, IMO, you get better images, and they love you and will buy more album (and spend more $) in the long run. Besides the fact of how can you cover the event without staying till the end? I handled many weddings where the video guy only stayed x hours and we got some AMAZING images long after they had left. Hey, if you don't love shooting weddings, you might want to look elsewhere anyway... But that's just my .02. Feel free to disagree. (Tim, you always have good input for wedding stuff!)

p.s. Tim, I know your wedding workflow is set, but I bought LR 2 for less than $100 (kids in school discount) and that workflow seems really simple, complete and now I'm doing client slideshows with it. It's also pretty intuitive. Overall, I'm really impressed, so just thought I would update you on that one. Appreciate your input on it...

[ashley.stalker]

Time to do proofs, what do you mean by that? Because I just do 'proper processing' originally and then export to a gallery.

I don't think I was far off for my pricing. I was charging around $34 for each side, plus whatever it cost for cover, etc.

What cover do you use for Queensberry as your basic cover? I am pricing for Micro Suedes and anything under.

[ashley.stalker]

NO ONE should be forced to make any decision of that kind the day of the wedding. Look, you've already killed your day, what's another 30 min to an hour?
...
In my area, 70% of the weddings take less than 8 hours. Several go for longer and several go shorter, but most are in that 6-8 hour block of time.
...
Hey, if you don't love shooting weddings, you might want to look elsewhere anyway... But that's just my .02. Feel free to disagree. (Tim, you always have good input for wedding stuff!)


For the weddings I have done so far my time has been unlimited unless they ask me to price for a 4 hour wedding or something like that. I was just trying to think of a way to keep the prices low enough for the level I am at. I think keeping it separate and pricing correctly for albums is the way to go. Plus having a sample album or two.

I think that is really sound advice and appreciate it. I do love shooting weddings and that I why I am stressing over the pricing so much because I want to continue to do them.

I love that I can get everyone's input to make the best decision. Thanks.

[tim]

Ok, let me add a wrinkle. I always thought it was crazy that we say 8 hours or something like that and place a time value on ourselves. So what, we get to 8 hours and the bride and groom are 30 min from leaving the reception and we say, "Sorry Mrs. Mother, my time is up and for another $x, I'll stay an additional hour.." IMO, NO ONE should be forced to make any decision of that kind the day of the wedding. Look, you've already killed your day, what's another 30 min to an hour?


I talk about time in advance. I used to do unlimited but people took advantage of that and I was at one wedding for 14 hours, that's when I limited it to eight hours, with a charge of $150 per hour after that. I don't always charge it.

Time to do proofs, what do you mean by that? Because I just do 'proper processing' originally and then export to a gallery.

I don't think I was far off for my pricing. I was charging around $34 for each side, plus whatever it cost for cover, etc.

What cover do you use for Queensberry as your basic cover? I am pricing for Micro Suedes and anything under.

My proofs aren't fully processed. Well they mostly are, but they never used to be. I do tweak them a bit more for albums and things.

$34/page is too cheap for extra pages. Make it $50. Remember this includes design time, revisions, prints, the page, and binding.

[Karl Johnston]

I bloody hate you all for having the ability to charge absolute bonkers prices by my market's opinion.

1st Package:
Disk of images in color and black and white
8 hours of coverage with 2 photographers
$1,395.00

I would be told to go @#$% myself for that kind of price.

1400 less tax for a freaking CD?? ...I mean wages and materials cost and all that's steeeep. Jesus . . you should see what my direct competition offers for 1500 $, it's almost 3 times the value of your 2nd package for the same price and he's got mad credentials..no offense, you don't. Not compared to him, anyway, but that said I don't either.

I'm the new guy, I haven't got the credentials and references and port he does and skill aside people will ask you where the value is going and why.

But marketing is everything.

If it works for your market then kudos to you but I'd be ruined in a month with that kinda value. People do ask "Why so much?" and if you can answer them honestly you think your work is worth 50-150 $ an hour and prevent them walking out the door .. you've got skill.

[zebelkinton]

Ashley,

I think you should ask yourself the question again.

How much do I really enjoy doing weddings?

If your answer is what your saying then I think you should keep your prices the same and build your client/referral base. I don't know how many people I have ran across that will try saving/cutting the corner in their wedding budget on the photographer. For me, I would rather do 10 wedding mildly priced per year then 5 with outrageous prices.

I honestly think that if you are doing this out of pure enjoyment with getting paid second you should not be concerned if your price is to low.

I'm not trying to one up you by any means but I do the occasional wedding for free and I get more out of seeing the clients faces drop then the check drop into my bank.

By looking at your portfolio it looks like you should be getting paid at the high end if that's what your looking to do. You have great creativity and your clients look to be enjoying themselves and that's all that counts.

Again, this is just my opinion but I truly think you should keep your rates the same this year. Please let us know what you decide because we are curious people.

Thanks again,
Zeb

[UAlso]

But, as day woo dsay on Staten Island:

Whooze amongt youze, can cover an elopement........????????

[ashley.stalker]

My head hurts. Too much to think about. Confusion!!! I might go half way, who knows.

And Kujauh, by the way it isn't just a CD of photos. Actually it is a DVD of all the photos from the day processed. They can go and print, do whatever they want with the images. To most people that is worth a lot, that is what everyone wants and it does take a long time to edit. Usually I have around 800 or more quality images.

Now I have to comment on the package you referenced at the same value. Making a sideshow, WOW, that is some value!!! You have the images you want to have in the slideshow and you plop them into a program and add a song. Adjust a few things here and there, bam! Sideshow! That doesn't take much work. 1 11x14 and 1 8x10 that sure is amazing! ;)

I could add that to my package and it wouldn't hurt me time wise or the bank, but those are not really of THAT much value as you say, epecially if I already edited those images.

I am trying to offer what I think most people want. Not extra frills they don't really care about. If they want it I don't charge a lot for it, maybe I'll throw it in for free. But I try to charge for the time it takes me to do everything else.

I appreciate the advice weather it is to go lower in pricing or raise album pricing. But don't tell me a sideshow and a few "stunning" prints bumps the value up that much!

I need to think everything over more.

Zebelkinton, your right in the sense that I rather do weddings regardless if I make more or not, but at the end of the night when my back starts to hurt is the only time I think I should have charged more. LOL! But then I love the results the day after, so then it is worth it again. Hard thing to judge.

Keep you posted. Back to my excel sheet.

[ashley.stalker]

I think I got it. I priced fairly close to what I was charging last year originally, but valued the albums more.

$700 for around 8 hours (not limiting it, but would arrange a time frame with the bride of when she expects me to arrive and depart)

$400 for disk of all images fully processed.

Just those two combined is $1,100.00, which from pricing from last year it is only up by $105.00. I defiantly think that isn't enough of an increase to scare referrals away.

Now for albums I did raise this a lot. Only because I really was undervaluing the albums and plan to get sample albums ASAP.

$950.00 for my smallest album I offer which is a going to be a 9x9 matted album
(I didn't price for 3 times the cost, but 2.26, thought it should be at least 2 times the amount.) Then $40.00 for each additional page (page=side)

$1245.00 for a starter 12x12 matted album, $50.00 for each additional page.

For the kind of album defiantly worth it.

I think I am set, but someone else will bring something up and change my mind. Let me know what you think?

[tim]

I bloody hate you all for having the ability to charge absolute bonkers prices by my market's opinion.


I would be told to go @#$% myself for that kind of price.

1400 less tax for a freaking CD?? ...I mean wages and materials cost and all that's steeeep. Jesus . . you should see what my direct competition offers for 1500 $, it's almost 3 times the value of your 2nd package for the same price and he's got mad credentials..no offense, you don't. Not compared to him, anyway, but that said I don't either.

I'm the new guy, I haven't got the credentials and references and port he does and skill aside people will ask you where the value is going and why.

But marketing is everything.

If it works for your market then kudos to you but I'd be ruined in a month with that kinda value. People do ask "Why so much?" and if you can answer them honestly you think your work is worth 50-150 $ an hour and prevent them walking out the door .. you've got skill.

Prices on a website pretty much prevent the "why so much" question. If you don't believe in yourself you'll never succeed.

Honestly at $1400 it's not worth my while. Where I am we lose 12.5% for sales tax, then income tax is about 30%. That takes it down to about $870 in the hand. If you photograph 30 weddings per year you should probably allow at LEAST $100 per wedding for equipment maintenance and replacement, which is on top of the $10-$20K worth of equipment you had to invest to start with. There are overheads like rent/lease (even if you work from home), power, phone (home and cell), property taxes, stationary, computers, software licenses and upgrades, accountant, postage and couriers, vehicle fuel and wear and tear, etc, etc, etc. Take all that into account and it eats most of the rest of that money. Remember wedding photography is a business and a profession, with all the regular overheads that a business pays, and to do it well is a full time job when you consider sales, marketing, photography, post processing, albums, customer interactions, training and research, etc. From what's left over you have to pay yourself a salary, ie to put food on the table, pay the rent mortgage, car, etc.

A guy with a camera putting $1400 in his pocket is quite different from a professional photographer.

I think I got it. I priced fairly close to what I was charging last year originally, but valued the albums more.

$700 for around 8 hours (not limiting it, but would arrange a time frame with the bride of when she expects me to arrive and depart)

$400 for disk of all images fully processed.

Just those two combined is $1,100.00, which from pricing from last year it is only up by $105.00. I defiantly think that isn't enough of an increase to scare referrals away.

Now for albums I did raise this a lot. Only because I really was undervaluing the albums and plan to get sample albums ASAP.

$950.00 for my smallest album I offer which is a going to be a 9x9 matted album
(I didn't price for 3 times the cost, but 2.26, thought it should be at least 2 times the amount.) Then $40.00 for each additional page (page=side)

$1245.00 for a starter 12x12 matted album, $50.00 for each additional page.

For the kind of album defiantly worth it.

I think I am set, but someone else will bring something up and change my mind. Let me know what you think?

Looks pretty good to me :)

[Karl Johnston]

My head hurts. Too much to think about. Confusion!!! I might go half way, who knows.

And Kujauh, by the way it isn't just a CD of photos. Actually it is a DVD of all the photos from the day processed. They can go and print, do whatever they want with the images. To most people that is worth a lot, that is what everyone wants and it does take a long time to edit. Usually I have around 800 or more quality images.

Now I have to comment on the package you referenced at the same value. Making a sideshow, WOW, that is some value!!! You have the images you want to have in the slideshow and you plop them into a program and add a song. Adjust a few things here and there, bam! Sideshow! That doesn't take much work. 1 11x14 and 1 8x10 that sure is amazing! ;)

I appreciate the advice weather it is to go lower in pricing or raise album pricing. But don't tell me a sideshow and a few "stunning" prints bumps the value up that much!


My sincerest apologies, though from my perspective it was just a disk of proofs. Since you didn't further specify details, aside from "Disk of images in color and black and white" I figured you were off your head.

I also mentioned he had far higher credentials than you did, no offense meant of course but you'll have to seriously rethink your marketing plan if you were to produce a CD of black and white images for 1400 $ just starting up. This guy I was refering to has pages worth of people he's worked with, agencies and newspapers, television networks and magazines, 10 years of experience, the list goes on...though, word of advice is not to mock people for offering their input - it's rude.

But since you clarified just exactly what you were doing, it seems to make more sense now. Come to think of it by that logic of 800 fully processed images on a ..DVD disk.. is a lot of friggen work for 1400. That's a lot of sorting through and a lot of editing and a lotttt of browsing ..


Honestly at $1400 it's not worth my while. Where I am we lose 12.5% for sales tax, then income tax is about 30%. That takes it down to about $870 in the hand. If you photograph 30 weddings per year you should probably allow at LEAST $100 per wedding for equipment maintenance and replacement, which is on top of the $10-$20K worth of equipment you had to invest to start with. There are overheads like rent/lease (even if you work from home), power, phone (home and cell), property taxes, stationary, computers, software licenses and upgrades, accountant, postage and couriers, vehicle fuel and wear and tear, etc, etc, etc. Take all that into account and it eats most of the rest of that money. Remember wedding photography is a business and a profession, with all the regular overheads that a business pays, and to do it well is a full time job when you consider sales, marketing, photography, post processing, albums, customer interactions, training and research, etc. From what's left over you have to pay yourself a salary, ie to put food on the table, pay the rent mortgage, car, etc.

Maybe not your while, considering your you and the quality of your work and the credentials you have is far surpassing to anyone else's here. But really, all of that stuff really isn't that much, and 10-20k worth of equipment...eh? There's just not enough justification for starting up a wedding photography business with 10-20 grand of equipment.

I know full well the methods of operating a business, the taxes, the insurance, the CPP and the worker's compensation for the employees, the photographer's salary, the lawyer's rate, the stylist's contract, the printing expeneses, the professional framer's demands, the local taxes. Yours are really high by the way; might want look into that with your local gov't, or petition people to start a riot cause wow..12.5%, ouch..and income tax...yeowch no wonder you charge 6 grand a wedding; you're losing nearly half of it in tax alone. etc etc. . but really your personal, private lifestyle expenses aren't to be confused with what you should charge as a professional, in anything, it's not the people's fault your shortcoming in the financial department. If you can't suffice your living expenses with your work you don't bill the client more for the shortcoming, that's true for any field.

[tim]

I don't think I was mocking anyone, and i'm getting confused at all the people in the thread...

Sounds like the well qualified guy offering CDs for $1400 is nuts. Culling down to 800 good images and color correcting them would be at least a days work for me, probably more, if I could take 800 images I thought the customer would want to see. That's about one photo every 40 seconds of an 8 hour wedding!

$10-$20K worth of equipment is probably more than necessary... I think $5K is a minimum really:
- Three bodies - I shoot with two, and want a backup if one breaks, like one did last week when I dropped it... $2400
- 17-55 : $1000
- 70-200 F2.8 IS $1500
- Sigma 30 F1.4 (or other fast prime) $400
- Wide lens: $500
- Three flashes (one for each camera body, plus a spare): $1200
- Radio slaves: $450
- Macro lens $400
- Light stands, memory cards, batteries, chargers, umbrellas: $1500
- Fast PC, with Photoshop: $2000

I'm up to about $9800, I wouldn't anything less. I also sometimes take studio strobes, but $10K would set you up nicely. That's about NZ$18K. Remember you need to upgrade and maintain equipment too.

[Tommy]

If you can't suffice your living expenses with your work you don't bill the client more for the shortcoming, that's true for any field.

Sure you do.... when you have a "regular" job and your salary can't pay your living expenses, what do you do? You go to another company that pays more. In a sense you market yourself, and run yourself as a business.... your employers are your customers. After all, no matter where you work, you're in the business of making money for yourself to pay your living expenses (and hopefully a little more on top for fun). So if my current employer (my wedding couples) can't pay me enough salary to pay my living expenses, I raise my rates and find those that can (switch employers)... make sense??

[ashley.stalker]

though, word of advice is not to mock people for offering their input - it's rude.

Sorry if I mocked, and no offense taken. But the way you were giving your advice was kind of rude too, so I responded in that nature. I totally am willing to accept advice.

I also mentioned he had far higher credentials than you did .... This guy I was referring to has pages worth of people he's worked with, agencies and newspapers, television networks and magazines, 10 years of experience, the list goes on

When you phrase it like this, I can see where you are coming from. :D

[form]

Once again, I have nothing interesting to contribute to this topic, but because I'm a broke wedding photographer I have a personal interest in reading it.

I believe that given the amount of effort involved, the money you're making wouldn't be enough to live on for the time spent, but if you're not living on it then maybe the money shouldn't be a great concern. Any time I consider raising my prices my girlfriend reminds me that the economy is bad and I am filling a niche as a budget photographer, providing what I can for people with limited funds.

Your rates are twice what mine are, but you also use 2 photographers, so they are about equal to mine.

I always include the DVD discs of retouched images. To put them out as something not included but only available at an extra cost seems counterproductive on a psychological respect. "Extra for the CD?" vs..."I get a DVD for free as part of the package" - the latter seems much easier to sell and already contains a positive note, that of something being free.

My opinion only.

[ashley.stalker]

My thinking behind charging separately for a disk is that if you do get an album with me, or print with me I give them those images on a disk. They don't need to buy the whole disk if they only want their favorites. It also motivates them to get a album & prints with me and bypass the disk of images.

This is what I am telling the client:

My pricing for weddings is broken down so it can accommodate every budget and also the needs for each client.

Pricing starts at $700.00 for two professional photographers for a full wedding day, online gallery to view all your images & archiving photos for 6 months

Choose weather you want to purchase a disk of all the images from the day, a Queensberry album, a print credit, or all of the above.

Disk of images:
All images in Color and B&W edited and fully processed
$400.00

Albums:
Queensberry produces a high-end custom album. With each album I provide a disk of all the images you selected for your album. For a 20 page album you would receive 40 images, so if you only want your favorites you don’t have to pay for a disk of images. You have your favorite images and a high-end Queensberry album.

9x9 Queensberry album with 20 pages starting at $950.00
12x12 Queensberry album with 20 pages starting at $1,245.00

Print credit:
For every $50.00 you spend on printing you get %7.5 off (up to %20 off)
For every image printed I provide that image on a disk.
To view everything that I offer for a print credit visit my a la carte pricing.

So here are a few options that I think are great and money savers:
Op 1: For 2 photographers and a full wedding day, disk of photos: $1100

Op 2: For 2 photographers and a full wedding day, 9x9 album & disk of 40 photos $1650

Op 3: For my time, 9x9 album, print credit of $57 (once you take off 7.5% it is $45.73) (say 5 8x10s, 3 5x7), & disk of 48 photos comes to $1695.73

[Todd_K]

Price is subjunctive depending on what part of the country you are in so I'm not going to comment on dollar amounts, but we are going through the same debate right now. We have been shooting weddings for over 4 years and have been shooting more weddings then we hoped for each year along the way.

Two things I would like to add, if you don't offer it then people can't buy it. When we started out we were really concerned about being "cheap" and trying to get people to book. Once we built a decent portfolio we did raise our prices but didn't have any high end price points. We would get couples that would want the most expensive package and then they wanted to know what else they could add on. My point make sure you throw in some high end price points, even though you don't have a ton of experience high prices can help offset this (sometimes it won't). If you have a $3,000-5,000 package then you at least give yourself the chance to book a big wedding.

Part two, come up with a number of weddings you want to book for next year. Book at a lower price (this year's prices) then once you hit this number raise your prices. We just did at one of the bigger bridal shows this last weekend, we told everyone they had until the end of Feb to book at last year's prices. The response we had was great, people feel they are getting a deal and our calendar gets filled up, and we gain another year of experience. I am not so worried about raising prices now because we are filled up for this year, anything we book after our prices go up is icing on the cake.

Remember a wedding is typically booked 9 months to a year in advance so set your prices according to where you think you will be 9-12 months from now.

Just a couple of ideas of things that have worked for us.

-Todd

[ashley.stalker]

Thanks Todd! That is great advice. Last year I did more weddings than I hoped for being my first year, but want to increase this year by two times the amount.

Now I have some more questions to ask...
Which bridal shows are worth going to? I hear some rip you off and some are great, but am afraid of going.

First what do I need to be prepared for a bridal show?
Sideshow (do you use a projector & everything?)
Sample Albums?
Large prints?
Pricing to hand out?

[Todd_K]

It is a tough call about which shows are good and which are bad, you can always call some of the people who had a booth at previous shows and ask their opinion. A side note about getting a booth, always try to see if you can talk them down on price, or maybe they can sell you a more expensive booth location at a less expensive price. With today's economy everything is negetoable.

We took 3 10x10 albums, some nicely framed 8x10 prints and we had a projector going with a constant slideshow. We also took in oversized postcard flyers and business cards to hand out. I want to have more enlargement prints at next years show, and some gallery wrap enlargements. There is something about large prints that make a statement. (And sticking to my advise of in my last post, if I don't show then I can't sell them.)

We actually ran out of postcard flyers on Sunday, but it actually went right along with our price increase story. We told them we were only going to book a limited number at those prices, we kept the last 2 postcards on the table and sent everyone who we couldn't give a postcard to our website. This also created a sense of urgency because one the show was booked and two they felt as though they needed to book asap to get last years prices.

Lastly be prepared to stand, smile and answer questions for 5 hours. It is a long day but as of right now I can account 5 bookings just from the show on Sunday and we have other consults setup.

[ashley.stalker]

Todd, I think if I meet with a client or go to a bridal expo I would provide all upgraded options (which I have in the past - no one so far has gone for it) and have one impressive package with it all, but for pricing online I might just have the bare minimum of weddings options (so it won't get too confusing & to not scare people with a tight budget).

[tim]

Once again, I have nothing interesting to contribute to this topic, but because I'm a broke wedding photographer I have a personal interest in reading it.

I believe that given the amount of effort involved, the money you're making wouldn't be enough to live on for the time spent, but if you're not living on it then maybe the money shouldn't be a great concern. Any time I consider raising my prices my girlfriend reminds me that the economy is bad and I am filling a niche as a budget photographer, providing what I can for people with limited funds.

Your rates are twice what mine are, but you also use 2 photographers, so they are about equal to mine.

I always include the DVD discs of retouched images. To put them out as something not included but only available at an extra cost seems counterproductive on a psychological respect. "Extra for the CD?" vs..."I get a DVD for free as part of the package" - the latter seems much easier to sell and already contains a positive note, that of something being free.

My opinion only.

I don't include a CD in my standard packages, but I do include a Queensberry album. I charge NZ$500 for the CD, and explain that it's to cover the time it takes to prepare the CD. I'm booked for every Saturday this summer, some for winter, and a few for summer 2010 already.

[Rob Lewis]

Not sure if this was offered already but.............

Think of yourself as a car.

Are you a Cadillac?

If yes, then you will attract the Cadillac shoppers. How?

First someone who is shopping for a Cadillac knows what they cost so they won't ever look at a car priced like a Chevette. So they will never consider you.

Your work and how good or bad you are will be determined by what you get as feed back from clients and how harsh you judge your self (and how REAL you keep it) and by your peers.

As far as peers go I honestly wouldn't come here to get true criticism. True criticism will hurt your tender feelings, but you will reflect, realize your peers are correct and work hard as hell to improve, and you will.

All types of forums have their place, some forums, like this one have such things as, C-C welcome, which really means be nice to me I hurt easy. Like I said that is OK. I like this forum and use it for what it is and what is has to offer. I truly like to go to a "nice" forum sometimes as opposed to the more harsh forums. I'm not sure if I am allowed to use other forum names so I won't. I'm sure you all have had varied experiences like my self. I know which forums to go to if I want things sugar coated and I know which ones to go to if I need a real good kick in the rear to really challenge me with no BS.

As of now if you believe you are currently a Chevette offering level, then by all means charge that way. If you believe you are a Cadillac offering then charge that way.

I will say though that one day you have to be able to say "I do my best at every wedding, I give my clients all promised and then some. I believe my work is now my art. Therefore it is unique to me and I will charge what I believe I am worth no matter what anyone else says."

If you don't charge what YOU want. If you don't shoot the way YOU want. Then you aren't being true to yourself and photography is a chore and not fun and not a love and not a joy.

This is all just my opinion and what I have experienced myself.

Thanks.

[ashley.stalker]

Not sure if this was offered already but.............

As of now if you believe you are currently a Chevette offering level, then by all means charge that way. If you believe you are a Cadillac offering then charge that way.

I think I do my best to be honest with myself about my work because I am so harsh on what my expectations are (probably more than the bride and groom). I stress over wheather they liked the images or not and then they always come back happy. But I feel I can't base it on that alone. I know what a Cadillac is and maybe my client doesn't or is unwilling to pay for that, and believe me I not ready to race one a Cadillac in my tercel (ha, ha, got to love a good analogy - don't think I am quite as low as a tercel). I think I have a few (or a ton) more kinks to work out (though nothing too servere).


If you don't charge what YOU want. If you don't shoot the way YOU want. Then you aren't being true to yourself and photography is a chore and not fun and not a love and not a joy.

I would love to charge $$$$, it would make me love it each dollar more, mainly knowing I am getting paid well for doing something I love. Luckily the clients I have had have let me do what I wanted to do, maybe not have the best locations, but have let me have creative freedom, or maybe they don't have a choice :lol:. Even if I don't make as much for right now I think I am getting paid enough to keep loving it for the time being.

My pricing will grow with the more confident/experience I have, but thank you for the advice. I think when (not if) I reach the Cadillac status I won't hesitate to charge that amount.

[Rob Lewis]

Good for you, sounds like you have the right attitude. Just don't try to compare yourself with anyone else to decide when your ready to charge the Cadillac amount. Because you will NOT be anyone but yourself and the way you shoot and your look will be uniquely yours and yours alone. For example, it just amazes me how many wedding photogs I have met online or in person who I think do some of the most horrible wedding photography I have ever seen and they kick my butt on number of clients every year, and those clients love what they get. Then I have my clients who come to me and think the same about other locals and think I am the end all be all of wedding and photography and portraits as well.

So it just goes to show you that if you give %110 and then some and are passionate about what you do you WILL find a customer base and they will love you and your work and believe in you.

Good Luck and have fun with it.

[ashley.stalker]

Yeah, I don't like everyones style, but know not everyone will like mine.

There are some photographers I look up to, but don't like ever shot they take (just not my style in some cases). Doesn't mean they suck (because clients go to them for that), but I would never take that shot because it isn't me.

I would hope that people would go with me because they like what I do.

Thanks, great getting your input.

[form]

That's good tim, I'm sure it works for you. I'm on a different tier and I don't advertise or cater to bigger budgets, so what I offer and what I provide is different. Maybe the OP's experience will run more along yours than mine.

[Rob Lewis]

I would hope that people would go with me because they like what I do.


Exactly right. That is why I say what you charge can only be determined by you and what you think you are worth. If you want to be the WalMart of wedding photography, which is just fine I'm not down on that at all, go for it. If you want to attract "art" shoppers who will hire you based what you produce and not because you are a bargain you can do that too. I think that is the better road to go myself.

So you can give people the perception that you are a Cadillac or you can give the impression that you only believe in yourself in the sense of a Chevette and people will catch on to that as well. The Cadillac shoppers will move on but you will have Chevette bargin shoppers call all day long as to how much, while the Cadillac shoppers will ask, do you have my date open, great, heres a check.

You will have clients who are going to love your work. You will have clients with no money and a tiny budget who will love and you will have clients with lots of money and a huge budget who will love you. Price yourself to attract the client with money. Believe me wedding photography is much more enjoyable and fun when you aren't struggling to pay the bills while you do it.;)

[form]

Yes you'll always find someone who likes your work, but you'll know you've arrived when nobody says your work is Bad, but they have instead replaced Bad with "not the style I prefer." Taste differs, but I think really great work is rarely considered bad even from most contrary points of view. It's like speaking honestly: You have an unshakable foundation of truth and no one can honestly state that you're lying, even if they don't agree with the conclusion you have reached.

Price yourself as you see yourself at the moment. If you think you're worth more in a year and you increase your prices, well then so be it. If this is that time, then go ahead. Odds are you'll still get business.

I like to be considered the WalMart of wedding photography. I wouldn't dare pretend to be an artistic wedding photographer, so I also wouldn't price myself accordingly.

[ashley.stalker]

So you can give people the perception that you are a Cadillac or you can give the impression that you only believe in yourself in the sense of a Chevette and people will catch on to that as well. The Cadillac shoppers will move on but you will have Chevette bargin shoppers call all day long as to how much, while the Cadillac shoppers will ask, do you have my date open, great, heres a check.


Much to think about... I don't want people to think I don't believe in myself, but when they ask how many weddings I have done (or years of experience) and if I were to charge more than what I plan to now I wouldn't feel confident any more.

I guess once I have things rolling than I won't worry about charging more and if I don't get that bargain shopper no sweat off my back, literally. :lol:

Now I have new questions. I might post a new thread, if one is not already posted. I would like to get everyone's input on that.

[form]

Just do what everyone else does when people ask new shooters how long/how many....Pad the truth with about a dozen weddings or the years by at least 1-2. Honestly for a first/second year shooter your prices seem right in line with what I expect now, seeing what's out there. Maybe after 3-4 years you might move up towards 2-3k?

So far there are only about 3 photogs on this forum I've seen who are worth those really higher prices (IMO).

[ashley.stalker]

I can't pad the truth. It isn't in me because I wouldn't want someone to do that to me.

[form]

Then, be honest and charge accordingly. Here's what you can do for sure: You can redirect the thought process from "how long/how many?" to "what's the quality of the work you do now?" Perhaps that will be morally and ethically acceptable. After all, you're redirecting the conversation from a general stereotype to something solid and immediately tangible about your work.

[Rob Lewis]

I wouldn't dare pretend to be an artistic wedding photographer, so I also wouldn't price myself accordingly.

From your site:
"I'm always trying to improve my creative eye and work on composition and lighting."

The above is from your website and I just thought you may like to know that your quote makes you an artist my friend. For the very things you are trying to improve upon are identical to the basic foundation of true art. Welcome aboard the art train my friend.

[form]

I'm a perfectionist, that's why I'm always trying to improve.

[tim]

Confidence and belief in yourself is key, along with ability of course. Not everyone posting in this thread has all of those, some have none. You need all to succeed.

[Rob Lewis]

I'm a perfectionist, that's why I'm always trying to improve.

Tell me about it. What artist isn't? I drive my wife nuts because nothing I do is ever "good enough".

[ashley.stalker]

I agree you need all three to succeed.

From what I have offered I have confidence in that, no doubt. I believe in myself, no doubt. I am proud of what I have done so far. I have delivered to each client, so no worries there.

The thing is I keep raising my expectations (better lighting for receptions (off-camera mainly), more unique poses/angles, better equipment, etc), therefore as I grow and fill some expectations I charge a little more.

I feel like I have succeeded so far with my first year. I haven't only done weddings, but want to do more and reach those next few expectations I have.

[ashley.stalker]

Tell me about it. What artist isn't? I drive my wife nuts because nothing I do is ever "good enough".

Here, here! LOL

[mezorn26]

toooooo cheap....2k minimum for a wedding..PERIOD!

[tim]

Put yourself in the position of the customer... would you pay $2K for someone who's unproven?

[form]

I wouldn't, that's why I don't charge $2k for my own work.

I'm still under the impression that the work itself is something that "proves" someone.

[sigler]

Hmmm....I'll be real honest, and I haven't read any of the responses...

The prices seem a bit high...what will the client get that worth an additional $500 or $600? I took a quick peek at your site, and your images are typical of a young photographer. (I don't mean to be discouraging in the least...just being honest)

You are not sure about lighting equipment...renting basic lenses...do you have backup equipment?...you have some very strong images, and some very weak ones....I don't think I would charge a premium price just yet.

I would really suggest signing up at the Digital Wedding Forum. Everything there is wedding, wedding, wedding. You need to shoot, let people tare your pictures to shreds, and shoot more. That's how I learned. :)

6 weddings is really just a start...a few times last summer, I shot 6 weddings in 9 days. (Don't recommend it. :)

Best of luck to you,
Rob

[form]

If DWF was free it would be worth it. I've been there and read posts and I just did not see what justifies the fees.

[sigler]

They have a free section that now includes quite a bit...also, spending $99 or whatever it is, to advance your career is nothing...

[tim]

If DWF was free it would be worth it. I've been there and read posts and I just did not see what justifies the fees.

It depends what threads you read. One thread I read about a year ago has made me about $20,000 that I wouldn've have made otherwise - the idea of predesigning and upselling albums.

They have a free section that now includes quite a bit...also, spending $99 or whatever it is, to advance your career is nothing...

Absolutely agree. The fee and policies keeps the wannabe's out. I very rarely learn anything about wedding photography on POTN any more, but I learn something every time I go to DWF. You don't get basic questions on the pro forums, and if they're asked people are usually both helped and pointed back towards the beginner forum.

[ashley.stalker]

The prices seem a bit high...what will the client get that worth an additional $500 or $600? I took a quick peek at your site, and your images are typical of a young photographer. (I don't mean to be discouraging in the least...just being honest)


you have some very strong images, and some very weak ones....I don't think I would charge a premium price just yet.


I did lower my prices from my original post (see post 33), but upgraded the value of albums. I appreciate honesty, though I would like to know which ones you thought were weak to give me an idea. (Maybe this isn't that type of thread)


I would really suggest signing up at the Digital Wedding Forum. Everything there is wedding, wedding, wedding. You need to shoot, let people tare your pictures to shreds, and shoot more. That's how I learned. :)

I will look into that. Sounds scary, but I am a big girl. I don't think I will cry.


6 weddings is really just a start...a few times last summer, I shot 6 weddings in 9 days. (Don't recommend it. :)
Yes it is a start, but no thanks to 6 weddings in 9 days. Yikes! Maybe you should charge more so you don't break your back making a living. ;)

[tim]

I have three weddings in four days coming up in Febuary, I thought that was tough, but six in nine days is insane! That'd be 2-3 weeks post processing for me!

[mezorn26]

Put yourself in the position of the customer... would you pay $2K for someone who's unproven?



Not a chance in hell...

However, implicit in my statement was that you need to learn to sell yourself as worthy of xxxx per wedding, images only say so much. You need to be able to sell ice to an Eskimo.

Wedding photography is not mostly about capturing amazing moments, it's actually, sadly, mostly business.

Moral of the story, you need to convince yourself that you're worth what you charge, then you can convince others.

Good luck!

[Rob Lewis]

Since someone opened the can. I absolutely do not recommend DWF. I was suckered in by the 1 or 2 truly big names that claim to be members but rarely , if ever, post. The main one, Yervant, was the reason I joined. They talk like he is posting all the time but he never does, and was only very very limited when he used to. Now I have since talked to him and a couple others and attended thier seminars. Now that has been helpful. As for the rest of the DWF, I just didn't find it helpful once you eliminate the big names who don't participate anyway. The DWF sponsers some big names but those big names are not active members. So don't be fooled by that part.

[tim]

The big names basically don't post, if they do it's rare. The big names aren't the ones I find helpful, I find the advice of the working professionals invaluable at times. As I mentioned in another thread information I learned on DWF increased my profit by $20K last year.