Everything is happening so fast, please help (concert photography)

[Coppatop85]

Well, by literally a stroke of luck, coincidence, and a lot of persistence, I have landed a gig at a new rock club shooting acts that come through. I have a plethora of questions for you.

1. I set up a website, because I did not have one, through zenfolio. www.coppatopphotos.com Take a look at it, and tell me what you think please. Also, if someone orders a photo print through there (not likely, as of now, all images have a watermark) do I get a cut of that? In the future, should I leave on the photo in one of the corners my name or website)

2. I get paid in cash, a flat rate per show for this venue to use my photos on their website, and display around the club on LCD screens. Nothing was in writing (which I intend to do) but I asked the owner if I could retain the rights to the photos should an artist be interested in them. He said this is fine. I intend to get this in writing, but how should I word it? What should I say?

3. At almost all the shows I have shot, PR/managers/artists have approached me about photos. If said artist buys rights or a proof of a photo, how should I deal with this? I assume I should make up a contract of some sort in case (wishful thinking) they want to use the photo for a poster, or an album or something, I get some sort of cut of those profits as well. Should I leave my copyright in the lower corner (not the water mark I have been using.). Any idea on pricing? Do you generally sell full rights to a photo ,and let them do whatever they want, or something like the first scenario where they buy the photo, and if they make a profit off it later, I would get a cut?

4. What should I charge for this sort of stuff? I am completely new to the whole business aspect of photography. I have been treating it as a hobby, but if I can start gettig paid for it, this would be amazing.


Thanks for your help in this matter!

---Eric

[tim]

1. Get a written agreement with the club owner stating you retain copyright, but you license the images to the club to use on their website, inside the club, and on advertising materials.
2. If you give images to a band make sure they have a watermark that will prevent commercial use. If people want to use the images they pay you for the high res version. Check out a stock image library or a photo quote site for typical prices.
3. You'll have to read up on the Zenfolio site to see how they work. I host my own site and galleries, so I can watermark but control the prints manually. Some sites let people order, when they do you get to upload a processed jpeg for them to print. I don't remember what sites do that. Make sure you state with any print orders that the images are for personal use only and that commercial use requires a license.
4. You'll have to work out what contract there is between the bands and the venue. Some bands might have contracts that say they own the copyright to any images taken at the venue.

Lawyers are good at legal advice, i'm not one of them, maybe you need one :)

[Coppatop85]

This is my watermark thus far:

http://www.coppatopphotos.com/img/v6/p177313849-5.jpg

Thanks for the advice so far.

[silverhalide]

1. I set up a website, because I did not have one, through zenfolio. www.coppatopphotos.com Take a look at it, and tell me what you think please. Also, if someone orders a photo print through there (not likely, as of now, all images have a watermark) do I get a cut of that? In the future, should I leave on the photo in one of the corners my name or website)


I can only comment on one of your questions:

Only on Zenfolio's top membership level do you get to set prices or get a cut of the sales. Also, at that level, Zenfolio can put a watermark on the image for display, but not when a print is made. (If you want you can put a watermark on yourself, for both printing and display.)

[Coppatop85]

I have the middle membership level. IF someone wants to purchace a print from that level, do I get a cut, or does only the prinitng company get money?

[sspellman]

Eric-

1) Zenfolio should let you make print sales at your pricing and profit.
2) Yes you will need a contract with the club to ensure you keep copyright and full license to your club client. Photos should normally have the club and your watermark.
3) You should establish a standard rate for bands to use photos for commercial/promotional use with a set fee per photo per year. You will need a licence agreement and send the photos to the band after payment. Licensed photos would not have watermarks.

PayPal is convenient for just payments, SmugMug is good for galleries, pricing, and even commercial licensing with download.

You should establish a standard process of posting photos of the gig to a link on the club website, and sending a link to the artist.

-Scott

[Coppatop85]

Thanks for the info spellman. I looked around, it does not seem I can set prices for my prints at the current level I have on ZF. It just says base printing price.

[Coppatop85]

Eric-
2) Yes you will need a contract with the club to ensure you keep copyright and full license to your club client. Photos should normally have the club and your watermark.
-Scott


For business purposes, would it be better to have my handle /website name in the copyright , I.E. (c) coppatop photos, or my actual name, (c) Photography by Eric Greenberg. Should I leave the copyright symbol in?

[sspellman]

I would put your Copyright notice in the Metadata, and your website logo on the image since it provides a means of contact. If you dont already own Lightroom, make sure it is your next investment.

[Coppatop85]

Spellman -- Thanks for the help thus far, really appreciate it, more questions for you:

How does one put the copyright in the metadata. Actually, I can probably search for that. More importanly about lightroom. What is the big deal with it? I tried it (pirated to check it out) and didn't really see anything CS3 doesn't already cover -- aside from a few presets. Am I missing something?

[noxcuses1]

just wanted to say good for you! great pics.

[fotofitness]

Pricing:
It all depends on what they plan to use the photo for.
FotoQuote is the best software
http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/fotoQuote-Pro/index.html

Just a few words of advice

1) You will never make money from selling prints in this type of work. All of your money will come from licensing digital images.

2) Never give away your images..ever. PR/Marketing/AD's all know what the license rates are..if you give them something for free...they will gladly take it and never reward you for it.

3) I know you have been told this already..but get the agreement in writing from the club. The lack of the contract will come back to bite you harder than anything else.

4) The difference between a professional photographer and an amateur photographer: One knows how to run a business..the other doesn't. I know this last point some people will argue you need talent/photography skills to be a professional photographer. My response to that: I know alot of photographers who are several orders of magnitude more talented than I am; let me tell you...they are not successful/professional photographers.


I have done event photography in the past and still do it 4 times a year under contract.
I was once contacted by a west coast fitness rag for some images and the PR guy was smooth as butter trying to get the images for free..told me how much exposure I would get ,etc... I went along and told him to expect an email in 24hrs. I punched everything in to FotoQuote and emailed him a license agreement for ~$3200. Needless to say I received a prompt payment.

I always viewed event photography as a networking opportunity. I always made sure that any operations/marketing/pr/advertising directors had my business card in their hands before the night was over. Eventually it paid off.

Your work is good and it's obvious you work hard, so you deserve to be compsensated at market price.

Just my 1cent worth of advice.

[gromeo]

john Harrington wrote a book on this, Best Business Practices for Photographers very good advice in it, and as mentioned in the above post FotoQuote is a must. You might want to check out PhotoShelter

[skifurthur]

Congratulations on your opportunity and good luck with making it a profitable venture. I'll echo the statement about getting a formal contract with the club on ownership of copyrights. Don't be surprised if the club wants ownership of the copyright since they are paying you to be there and in effect you are working for them.

Also, on the selling of prints part, you enter a grey area if you don't have an agreement with the artist's management. While selling your captures for edittorial purposes and/or the artist is ok, selling to the public is probably not ok. The artist has a right to control their image in such situations and if you don't get permission you run the risk of litigation.

Be careful because the concert scene is more close knit than you think and a couple of complaints will find bands telling the club owner that you don't have permission to shoot the act. Names do get passed around. Tour managers get together with other tour managers and compare notes more often than you think.

[sspellman]

You can enter Copyright info manually into each picture with PS under File Info. Lightroom doesnt do anything new, but it provides an excellent framework for doing critical tasks quickly and automatically-selecting, croping, metadata, exposure adjustments, run actions, rename files, etc. LR was my best purchase last year and has saved me hundreds of hours. I don't even open PS for most of my event jobs any more.


How does one put the copyright in the metadata. Actually, I can probably search for that. More importanly about lightroom. What is the big deal with it? I tried it (pirated to check it out) and didn't really see anything CS3 doesn't already cover -- aside from a few presets. Am I missing something?

[Coppatop85]

So, the venue is trying to tell me that they own the photos 100% since they provide the venue, and the music. They also have a team of lawyers, and i have you guys. Any suggestions how I should proceed?

[DDCSD]

So, the venue is trying to tell me that they own the photos 100% since they provide the venue, and the music. They also have a team of lawyers, and i have you guys. Any suggestions how I should proceed?

It depends on what your contract states. This is why everything needs to be in writing. It does not belong to them by default, as they seem to be implying. But this may constitute a work-for-hire situation.

Bottom line is you need to draft a contract to present them with your terms. It is easier to negotiate a contract that you have written than one that they present.

[thebishopp]

It depends on what your contract states. This is why everything needs to be in writing. It does not belong to them by default, as they seem to be implying. But this may constitute a work-for-hire situation.

Bottom line is you need to draft a contract to present them with your terms. It is easier to negotiate a contract that you have written than one that they present.

+1

Coppatop, do you have a contract? Without one then they don't have a leg to stand on regardless of their "team" of lawyers.

HOWEVER, the fact that they are telling you that if you choose to shoot there then they own the pictures that may constitute a verbal contract if you agree to shoot under those conditions. Any pictures taken from that point on may fall under this "verbal" contract.