ebay trigger vs. Canon wireless

[Trackerxx]

I'd like to start using off camera flash. At first I was going to buy the Canon ST-E2. But now I am thinking of experimenting with an ebay trigger such as an V2s or similar model.

Are there any advantages to going with the ST-E2? The obvious advantage with the ebay triggers is price.

I laready own the 580 EX and am thinking of getting the sunpak 433 as a second strobe.

Since I am realtively new as a "strobist" it may be advantageous to keep my costs low to see if I eventually want to go with more serious studio flash kits.

Opinons please. Thanks.

[binliner]

I've just bought cheap PT-04 triggers from ebay to experiment with... dead cheap, only took 4 days to get from Hong Kong to UK and work perfectly.

[ebann]

The 580EX has the same functionality as the ST-E2... if you can get a cheap 420EX (~$120) it can be controlled by the 580EX. I use this setup because it is very convenient. If you want to move your 580EX around, also get an off-shoe cord.

Now, if you want to go the SunPak route, get that and a cheap optical trigger. To make the optical trigger work with the 580EX, the 580EX must be in manual mode in order to avoid Canon's infamous E-TTL pre-flash.

[Trackerxx]

Binliner:

Exactly! Cheap is good for experimenting. I wonder why people pay for the Canon wireless trigger?

[dan j]

IMO, it's because the ST-E2 is EXTREMELY QUICK and EXTREMELY EASY. I pop it on, place my flashes and shoot. I don't meter, I don't mess with manual flash settings (unless I want to go manual), I can adjust ratios from the camera, I don't have to re-meter because the lighting changed or my daughter now wants to play in a different room. It's great because it's quick and easy.

I understand the benefits of the non-ETTL flash triggers, but, I don't think cost is one of them. The ST-E2 can be bought for $100-125 used. If, and when, I add a non-ETTL trigger I'll need a flash meter. Unfortunately, the Chinese meters get no love. The one everyone says you have to have (the Seksonic L-358) costs $200 used. The Cactus triggers are the least expensive triggers out there and they're $60 for two flashes and only considered "usually reliable" by a lot of guys. Getting a more reliable non-ETTL system means even more money.

There are benefits to both systems. I plan to get a non-ETTL system (probably the V2s) but I don't think I'll be selling the ST-E2. It's just too convenient.

dan

[Trackerxx]

Now that's what I was looking for! I like the being able to work quickly if necessary. That is an advantage. I will start looking for a used wireless transmitter.

I guess it doesn't have to be either or since ebay triggers are cheap.

[bauerman]

The ST-E2 is only going to help you with triggering the Canon Flashes - just so that point is clear. You buy that Sunpak and the ST-E2 is not going to do you much good in triggering that strobe. If you stay "all Canon" then you would be ok.

I personally don't think that the ST-E2 is worth the expense to simply trigger one single off camera flash. If you had three 580's then it would be a different story. I think that the ebay trigger route makes more sense, at least given your current equipment.

[Trackerxx]

if i can find a used st-e2 I will buy it to plan for "future needs." As you know I have a 20D but plan to pick up a used 5D and probably should buy another flash for that. So I will likely need to get 580 EX II soon.

No one said this hobby would be cheap.

[dan j]

The ST-E2 is only going to help you with triggering the Canon Flashes - just so that point is clear. You buy that Sunpak and the ST-E2 is not going to do you much good in triggering that strobe.
I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that there are some flashes and strobes that have IR sensors that the ST-E2 can trigger.

dan

[ebann]

Did you miss the part of what I said? The 580EX *is* effectively an ST-E2 transmitter if you set the funtion "do not fire flash". What's even better, it *can* fire itself as well as any Canon flash with slave option. Why spend $130 on an ST-E2 when you can spend it on another Canon flash (slave) to work *with* the 580EX (master)? Canon's IR is not perfect, but it will take you very far in your strobist career. Go wireless when you need 100% reliability (Pocket Wizards).

[GenuineRolla]

I got fed up with my eBay triggers as they didn't like distance half of the time.

[bauerman]

Did you miss the part of what I said? The 580EX *is* effectively an ST-E2 transmitter if you set the funtion "do not fire flash". What's even better, it *can* fire itself as well as any Canon flash with slave option. Why spend $130 on an ST-E2 when you can spend it on another Canon flash (slave) to work *with* the 580EX (master)? Canon's IR is not perfect, but it will take you very far in your strobist career. Go wireless when you need 100% reliability (Pocket Wizards).

Agreed - the money spent on a 430EX would probably be a better buy (and way more versatile) than on an ST-E2.

[Jim M]

Agreed - the money spent on a 430EX would probably be a better buy (and way more versatile) than on an ST-E2.
Only if you want to keep the 580EX on the hot shoe or connected by E-TTL cable. Otherwise, you just have a terribly expensive ST-E2. Here is how I see it:

Pros of Canon system:

Able to use E-TTL with Canon flashes.

Able to set ratios from camera.

Cons of Canon system:

Requires line of sight or reasonably reflective indoor walls for infrared triggering.

Not completely reliable outdoors.

If you want to correct the above, you will need a RadioPopper system on top of whatever you are using to send the original signal. $$$$

You must use Canon compatible flash units.

[dan j]

Only if you want to keep the 580EX on the hot shoe or connected by E-TTL cable. Otherwise, you just have a terribly expensive ST-E2. Here is how I see it:

Pros of Canon system:

Able to use E-TTL with Canon flashes.

Able to set ratios from camera.

Doesn't require a flash meter. $$$$

Quick and easy to setup

Cons of Canon system:

Requires line of sight or reasonably reflective indoor walls for infrared triggering.

Not completely reliable outdoors.

If you want to correct the above, you will need a RadioPopper system on top of whatever you are using to send the original signal. $$$$

You must use Canon compatible flash units.
dan

[bauerman]

Only if you want to keep the 580EX on the hot shoe or connected by E-TTL cable.

Yep - that is what I was thinking and that is what I do - 550EX on the hot shoe and my 420EX as the key or primary light off camera controlled through ETTL ratio settings. Works great for me. On camera light used as fill works for me....I think its just becoming almost 'taboo' to have a strobe on camera at all......:rolleyes:

[Jim M]

From Dan:
"Doesn't require a flash meter. $$$$

Quick and easy to setup"


Oh yeah. I forgot. However, if you are cheap enough and don't mind futzing, you can use a histogram as a meter. Also, you can get old Wein flash meters on eBay for really cheap. There are probably a number of other advantages to the Canon system that I have forgotten about as well.

[Trackerxx]

I assume that if I have two 580 EXS I can use the one on the camera's hotshoe to fire off the second flash without having to emit light from the first one if I so choose?

(for example if I only one one flash to fire of to the side of a subject). It seems logical but better to ask.

[Trackerxx]

nevermind. ebann answered my question about the "do not fire flash" function.

I think I will just get a second 580 EX. Never had a problem with the first one and it has put up with my abuse.

[dan j]

From Dan:
"Doesn't require a flash meter. $$$$

Quick and easy to setup"


Oh yeah. I forgot. However, if you are cheap enough and don't mind futzing, you can use a histogram as a meter. Also, you can get old Wein flash meters on eBay for really cheap. There are probably a number of other advantages to the Canon system that I have forgotten about as well.
My understanding, and I barely understand it ;), is that the camera's histogram or the old Wein that only measure incident are almost worthless with flash photos.

I would love to see folks start recommending the Ebay meters that measure incident and flash and are only $50. The L-358 is probably great, but it's $200-250.

dan

[BigErv]

I have both the ST-E2 and the ebay V2 triggers.

The ST-E2 is great if you are going to take advantage ETTL. My main issue with it is that it relies on IR. You have to prep your speedlites to have the IR sensor visible to see the beam or else it won't fire. It's fine if you can bounce off nearby walls, but in open places, it doesn't always work. I do love it for the ability to just plop it on, place your speedlites anywhere and shoot without having to meter. I use it for general type shots. If the flash is too bright or too dim, I just make an adjustment in camera and shoot again. Very quick. If you go this route, try to stick with all canon speedlites, don't get other flashes that are not compatible.

If you are into manual settings, getting creative, and have a light meter, a remote trigger is the way to go. Just know that you will need sync adapters for each speedlite which will add to the cost. Also setup time is more because you have meter your lights and position them just right.

The ebay triggers are good if you want to play around. I've found them very un-reliable. Sure they can trigger the flash, but it definitely won't be at a 90%+ success rate. I've been burned by them on shoots and it was my fault for using them. If your work depends on them, spend the money for a reliable flash trigger. I bought the cybersyncs and haven't had an issue ever since.

[Lotto]

Add 2 Pros to the ST-E2: focus assist and high speed sync.

[SL 585]

spend the money for a reliable flash trigger

So buy pocket wizards,I too have the EXII and want to add a 430 2nd flash

Rather buy once than twice..

[Jim M]

My understanding, and I barely understand it ;), is that the camera's histogram or the old Wein that only measure incident are almost worthless with flash photos.

I would love to see folks start recommending the Ebay meters that measure incident and flash and are only $50. The L-358 is probably great, but it's $200-250.

dan
Don't confuse incident with ambient. Incident light is the light falling on a subject vs. reflected light, which is light reflected from a subject. While the Wein flash meter measures only incident light, it is an incident flash meter. The camera's histogram has a learning curve for flash use, depending on the situation.

[ebann]

Yep - that is what I was thinking and that is what I do - 550EX on the hot shoe and my 420EX as the key or primary light off camera controlled through ETTL ratio settings. Works great for me. On camera light used as fill works for me....I think its just becoming almost 'taboo' to have a strobe on camera at all......:rolleyes:

Someone commented that many wedding pros invariably has a flash on camera (pointing to the ceiling, never direct) and triggering another flash (with an assistant) via radio.

[ebann]

nevermind. ebann answered my question about the "do not fire flash" function.

I think I will just get a second 580 EX. Never had a problem with the first one and it has put up with my abuse.

Good idea. I myself am aiming to swap both my 420s for another (my third) 580.

Here's another option:

Try to find the wonderful Nikon SB-26... it has built-in optical trigger which would work with your 580 in manual mode (again, to avoid the E-TTL pre-flash).

[borism]

I haven't tried the ebay triggers but I have read many comments about trouble misfiring or compatibility with speedlites that most users say "they are great for the money".
I have learned that one have to try to get the best you can the first time, since you know you need off camera, get the best radio trigger you can
I would try so go for a more reliable unit like Cybersync, radio poppers etc.

I actually think Im going to go for both
First I'll get a ST-E2 to experiment with my one light, then get more lights and maybe a radio trigger later on.
I don't shoot that much outside in the sun or long distances.
Good luck and report back!

[dan j]

Don't confuse incident with ambient. Incident light is the light falling on a subject vs. reflected light, which is light reflected from a subject. While the Wein flash meter measures only incident light, it is an incident flash meter. The camera's histogram has a learning curve for flash use, depending on the situation.
Ok, so how do I measure using my 40D? For example, I'm using my ST-E2, 430EX and 430EX II, and there is some shady sunlight.

Thank you,
dan

[Trackerxx]

I get the feeling from some on this board that getting 2nd 580 EX II might be a waste of money. Perhaps I should go the 550 or 430 route?

Remember I only have the 580ex (original model). B&H has a new 580 EX II for $370.

I think what tempts people are the sunpaks with e-ttl for canon that sell for much cheaper. But in the long run I'd rather pay more and never have an issue.

Crazy?

[Jim M]

Ok, so how do I measure using my 40D? For example, I'm using my ST-E2, 430EX and 430EX II, and there is some shady sunlight.

Thank you,
dan
I'm not really sure what you are asking. If you are using an ST-E2, you can use E-TTL and don't have to measure the flash. That is the enormous advantage of the ST-E2, which I am sure you know since you list it in your gear. My disclaimer here is that I don't own an ST-E2 and I use studio flash when I use multiple flash. And I trigger it with a cheap eBay radio trigger that has been amazingly reliable despite its relatively short range.

If you are asking how to measure incident light with a 40D, you can't. It has only a reflected light meter. Also, although the 40D (and virtually every other camera made today) can measure the ambient light, it can't read the light of the flash and tell you how to set the camera or the flash. It only reads in E-TTL and tells the flash what to do without letting you know what it is telling the flash.

If you are asking how to use a histogram, then it is just a matter of reading the ambient light, setting the camera, taking a picture, then looking at the image and looking at the histogram to see if are getting the results you want. The histogram graphs the relative amounts of light across the range of tones that have been captured in the sensor. It doesn't really care what created the light. In the histogram, under the conditions you describe, I would look to see if there was information all along the length of the histogram and look for spikes on the ends that aren't accounted for by tones in the picture that you want to be pure black or pure white. For instance, if you take a flash picture outside at night and there is a lot of black background, the histogram is going to look somewhat like the picture is underexposed. However, instead of all the information being shifted to the left with nothing on the right half, there will be a spike on the left, but there will be parts of the graph all the way across the histogram. There are so many variables about how you want the picture to look, it is difficult to tell how to set things. Do you want the flash to just lift the shadows a little? Do you want the sunlight to be less or the same as the flash illumination? To me, that is the same as using one of the automatic modes in that you still have to make choices about what you want the image to look like and adjust accordingly. Did I get anywhere near the question you asked?

[Jim M]

I get the feeling from some on this board that getting 2nd 580 EX II might be a waste of money. Perhaps I should go the 550 or 430 route?

Remember I only have the 580ex (original model). B&H has a new 580 EX II for $370.

I think what tempts people are the sunpaks with e-ttl for canon that sell for much cheaper. But in the long run I'd rather pay more and never have an issue.

Crazy?
I don't think so.

[ebann]

You can probably do 80% of the stuff Strobist teaches with your 580 and a 420.

I get the feeling from some on this board that getting 2nd 580 EX II might be a waste of money. Perhaps I should go the 550 or 430 route?

Remember I only have the 580ex (original model). B&H has a new 580 EX II for $370.

I think what tempts people are the sunpaks with e-ttl for canon that sell for much cheaper. But in the long run I'd rather pay more and never have an issue.

Crazy?

[WillMass]

You can probably do 80% of the stuff Strobist teaches with your 580 and a 420.

Not necessarily. The 420 has no manual mode, so it will always be in ETTL.

Also, I know that when using a 550 on camera as the trigger, it always fires a flash (albeit a lower powered flash) b/c it sends the command signal via the flashtube, unlike the ST-E2 which has no flashtube. This can be a problem if there is a reflective surface in the frame, like a mirror of frames art, because the reflection of the command flash may be visible.

Since I only own 550's and have not 580's, I don't know if the 580 behaves this way too.

[ebann]

Not necessarily. The 420 has no manual mode, so it will always be in ETTL.

Also, I know that when using a 550 on camera as the trigger, it always fires a flash (albeit a lower powered flash) b/c it sends the command signal via the flashtube, unlike the ST-E2 which has no flashtube. This can be a problem if there is a reflective surface in the frame, like a mirror of frames art, because the reflection of the command flash may be visible.

Since I only own 550's and have not 580's, I don't know if the 580 behaves this way too.

From what I understand, the pre-flash is for exposure purposes only. Communication with other Canon flashes is via IR. The 420 can be programmed via the 580EX/ST-E2 but not by itself! I was pleasantly surprised to find out that even the G9 can control the 420 flash output.

[WillMass]

From what I understand, the pre-flash is for exposure purposes only. Communication with other Canon flashes is via IR. The 420 can be programmed via the 580EX/ST-E2 but not by itself! I was pleasantly surprised to find out that even the G9 can control the 420 flash output.

Not so with the 550. I just double checked.

Flash in manual & master, Flash Disabled. While it IS a lower power it is still quite visible.

The 420 can be controlled by using rations, but the 420 has no manual mode. Therefore the amount of control is limited.

[WillMass]

Meant to add this:

[ebann]

Meant to add this:

Even with the flash in the "do not fire" mode it shows up in your image?!? Something's wrong.

[WillMass]

Even with the flash in the "do not fire" mode it shows up in your image?!? Something's wrong.

Nope, does that on all 3 of my 550's. It's my understanding the emitter is a smaller flash tube in the same housing. What you are seeing is that tube firing.

I'm trying to remember, I think it was Chuck Westfall who told me this also. It was discussed quite sometime ago, so it's all a little fuzzy

[ebann]

Nope, does that on all 3 of my 550's. It's my understanding the emitter is a smaller flash tube in the same housing. What you are seeing is that tube firing.

I'm trying to remember, I think it was Chuck Westfall who told me this also. It was discussed quite sometime ago, so it's all a little fuzzy

So much for ambient light photography with a 550...

[WillMass]

So much for ambient light photography with a 550...

This is originally why I purchased an ST-E2. Now as I do more with manual flash, and studio strobes, I've been using the Cactus triggers.

BTW, just double checked my other 550's to make sure I wasn't spreading misinformation.

Same result.

[ebann]

This is for the OP (and perhaps also 550 owners).

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/450

I'm trying to find more info via Google on that 550 "feature"...

http://photo.net/photography-lighting-equipment-techniques-forum/00ABtL

That data-only flash does not affect the scene lighting... unless it has reflective surfaces!

[Trackerxx]

I'm the OP. I assume that the 580 won't have the same problem discussed above with the 550?

[ebann]

I'm the OP. I assume that the 580 won't have the same problem discussed above with the 550?

Try it. I never experienced it.

[EMART49]

i have the v2. works great, ive never had a problem and i like that it is wireless as well. it comes in handy a lot.

[Sam N]

The great thing about the ST-E2 is that you can also use it as a focus-assist beam when shooting with available light.

[fatalimage]

i have the v2 as well, works great. i modified the trigger with an antenna, looks great and works 400% further. I also hard wired the recievers into the flash, that way the flash unit will sit lower in the shoe rather than having the reciever on the shoe. i will post up pictures later if anyone cares.

[ebann]

The great thing about the ST-E2 is that you can also use it as a focus-assist beam when shooting with available light.

The OP's 580EX also does ;) For the longest time I've been pondering about the ST-E2... in the end, I eventually buy another flash... either another slave or master.