Question for Mac laptop users

[slitherjef]

A while back, like a couple years ago, I got a toshiba laptop. Normaly I build my own PCs and at the time, I knew custom building a laptop was not as easy as a PC and heard it was expensive. By custom build I mean, pick your own ram, CPU, mobo and other stuff. So I found a decent one at bestbuy, paid almost 800 bucks in cash (they did not know what to think of that :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I wanted the laptop mostly for use in the field, that would be for astro-related activities such as star charts, autoguiding a mount and capturing images to judge them on the spot and not on the LCD of the camera. It would also allow me to have backup copies of those images.

Well, Since I got the laptop for that, I really did not need any of the software that came with it. The laptop came pre-installed with a bunch of worthless software. A trail addition of office 2003 (and I never did find the activation codes), AOL garbage, some music stuff from yahoo. When ever I start the laptop a stupid thing called snapshot viewer pops up. I don't know what its for, I tried to remove it and it will not go. I suspect I may have to go into the registry and look for it. The absolute worst however is the fact that no disc for windows XP home was found in the box. I thought to my self what happens if I had to reformat the thing? Does Toshiba expect me to send them the laptop?

The question I have is, do Mac Laptops come with a bunch of worthless preloaded software? I have been windows since I have been into computers, but this preloaded software really bugs me, thats why I rather just build my own PC from scratch. If I get the money for a new laptop eventualy, I would seriously look at what Mac laptops have to offer

[Mark]

They come with very little junky stuff installed, one of the great things about mac is that the software in general is very very easy to uninstall, just delete .app file from applications folder...
I would get a mac.... (of course I have a bunch so am a bit biased :p)

BTW 6/14/06 isn't just arrived anymore :lol:

[tharmsen]

Mac's come with a few things installed, but as noted they are easily removed. There's no registry to screw with. There's no hidden files that haunt you every time you least expect it. There's no annoying pop-ups warning you of this and that.

It's simple, fast, reliable and easy to use. That's why they are growing in popularity so quickly. The adoption of Intel processors really pushed them over the top. There's no reason to buy PC's anymore, at least for me (and I'm a former 20 year Windows/DOS/PC user).

[CeeJayCee]

As the previous posters have mentioned, Apple computers don't tend to ship with junk-ware on them: they usually come with prebundled software such as iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, etc etc.

Having said that, you could easily reinstall windows yourself and not have any of that junk on it. Unless you count Windows as junk - I'll let you be the judge of that! ;)

[gary88]

Unless you classify chess as being unnecessary software, Macs don't come pre-loaded with anything annoying ;)

[ozziepuppy]

I have a MacBook Pro. I highly recommend it. Go to your local Apple store and have them show it to you. It does come with pre-installed software, but I like what comes with it. When people ask why I like my MacBook Pro, I can summarize it in one sentence: "It just works." :D

[Moppie]

As the previous posters have mentioned, Apple computers don't tend to ship with junk-ware on them: they usually come with prebundled software such as iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, etc etc.



So what your saying is that if its preinstalled on a windows machine its junk, but if you put a lower case i in front the same software and it comes preinstalled on a Mac, it is really cool and wonderful and not junk?


Most lap tops now days come with a separate partition on the hard disk that you can access and use to burn a recovery disc for reinstalling the OS.
Each is slightly different, but the instructions on how to do so will have been included with the machine, or will be on it.



What I think slitherjef is really asking is do Mac's come with a phyiscal copy of OS-X??
If so that is one step up on the lazy PC manufactorers who don't provide a copy of windows on a disc with thier systems, all so they can save a $1 and have that little bit more control over the customer.

[potn_momma2]

I have had windows all my life and still have 2 PC's in my house that are being used. I got a Macbook and honestly if I could get CS3 from my pc to my mac without having to buy a new version, I would never use the PC ever again.
Mac works right out of the box, no matter what. And if you have a problem, there's always a solution and most of the time you just click help and it will tell you what to do. Mac is so user friendly, and it's not hard to switch from windows to os x.
iPhoto is one of the preinstalled programs, it's a great little program for cataloging your photos, and all the big name programs work with mac too.
Keep us updated

And yes, Mac's come with a physical copy of the OS. Or you can do it remotely from your computer.

My PC didn't come with a disk either, you have to do a bunch of tricks in the setup screen to get it to reformat... PITA!!!

[MaxxuM]

A while back, like a couple years ago, I got a toshiba laptop. Normaly I build my own PCs and at the time, I knew custom building a laptop was not as easy as a PC and heard it was expensive. By custom build I mean, pick your own ram, CPU, mobo and other stuff. So I found a decent one at bestbuy, paid almost 800 bucks in cash (they did not know what to think of that :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I wanted the laptop mostly for use in the field, that would be for astro-related activities such as star charts, autoguiding a mount and capturing images to judge them on the spot and not on the LCD of the camera. It would also allow me to have backup copies of those images.

Well, Since I got the laptop for that, I really did not need any of the software that came with it. The laptop came pre-installed with a bunch of worthless software. A trail addition of office 2003 (and I never did find the activation codes), AOL garbage, some music stuff from yahoo. When ever I start the laptop a stupid thing called snapshot viewer pops up. I don't know what its for, I tried to remove it and it will not go. I suspect I may have to go into the registry and look for it. The absolute worst however is the fact that no disc for windows XP home was found in the box. I thought to my self what happens if I had to reformat the thing? Does Toshiba expect me to send them the laptop?

The question I have is, do Mac Laptops come with a bunch of worthless preloaded software? I have been windows since I have been into computers, but this preloaded software really bugs me, thats why I rather just build my own PC from scratch. If I get the money for a new laptop eventualy, I would seriously look at what Mac laptops have to offer

Short answer, no. Sometimes they come with iWork preloaded, but you can toss it into the trash if you don't want to buy it. All my Mac's only came with what I ordered on them - iLife, Final Cut Studio 2, Aperture 2.0 and Shake. You can go on over to Youtube and type in MacBook Pro Unboxing and you'll see exactly what comes in the MBP box with the Mac. My Mac Pro and MacBook Pro came in three packages because of the added software - the Final Cut Studio box weighs a ton yet I still got two day free shipping :)

There aren't many PC manufactuerers that put as much care not to p*** off the customer with unnessary preloaded software - in fact, I don't know any :( Oh, if you're in the State's, buy from Amazon or MacMall plus buy your own upgrade memory to save yourself some money (memory isn't so bad now at Apple now).

[ocabj]

The main problem with Windows applications is that they install DLL (linked libraries) and other information in the Windows Registry. So all that pre-loaded software from the computer manufacturer directly affects performance.

OS X (Unix) is a lot cleaner when it handles applications. And if written properly, even huge enterprise level applications can be encapsulated in a single visible 'package' that can simply be dragged and dropped into the trash (or otherwise deleted), without having to go hunt down linked libraries installed by the application in other areas of the system.

[MaxxuM]

So what your saying is that if its preinstalled on a windows machine its junk, but if you put a lower case i in front the same software and it comes preinstalled on a Mac, it is really cool and wonderful and not junk?

What I think he was trying to say is that Microsoft usually doesn't bundle separately sold software with their OS - usually that is up to the builder (OEM) like Dell or HP and usually that software isn't very impressive (lite versions, shareware, spam magnets (registration), Google Desktop, Google toolbar (or MSN or Yahoo), demos, trialware... and so on). While Apple's prebundled iLife '09 suite is fully functional, is improved significantly each version and must be purchased when the new version comes out. Microsoft does provide weaker versions of some of this software but the next version usually isn't much better and comes out with the next OS or SP sometimes several years later.

Again, this isn't Microsoft's fault, not directly anyway. It is however a sad fact though :confused:

[[CaliGirl]]

My three favorite things about my Mac...
1. When I want to shut down, it takes all of 5 seconds....nothing needs to update for 7 minutes before it will shut down
2. When I want to power up, it takes all of 15 seconds, not 3 1/2 minutes like my last toshiba.
3. When I bought it, it took about 5 minutes from the time I opened the box to the time I was surfing the net. All the software that was on there was real software, not 15 "trial programs" that needed to be uninstalled.

[MaxxuM]

OS X (Unix) is a lot cleaner when it handles applications. And if written properly, even huge enterprise level applications can be encapsulated in a single visible 'package' that can simply be dragged and dropped into the trash (or otherwise deleted), without having to go hunt down linked libraries installed by the application in other areas of the system.

Most times that is true, but then there are apps like Adobe Photoshop (or their master box sets) that put stuff all over the place. The uninstaller does not get rid of all of it either - mainly because they want to know if you try to 'trick' the install packages as well as settings and so forth.

[Moppie]

;7094191']My three favorite things about my Mac...
1. When I want to shut down, it takes all of 5 seconds....nothing needs to update for 7 minutes before it will shut down
2. When I want to power up, it takes all of 15 seconds, not 3 1/2 minutes like my last toshiba.
3. When I bought it, it took about 5 minutes from the time I opened the box to the time I was surfing the net. All the software that was on there was real software, not 15 "trial programs" that needed to be uninstalled.


Sadly this sort of rhetoric doesn't help, or add anything to the thread.


If your going to buy a computer with out fully checking out its specs, and what software it comes installed with, effectively buying in a state of ignorance, then well done to Toshiba for taking your money.

The fact you then bought an Apple in that same state, but are happy with it just shows that Apple are better at marketing, and have a better idea of what a growing number of consumers are looking for in a computer.
Well done Apple for taking your money, and bad on Toshiba for taking their customers for granted.

[slitherjef]

My laptop came with a bunch of trial software installed...
Anti virus
Office 2003 (and I could not find the activation codes for it) But I have a hard copy of the software and it can be legaly installed on 3 computers, and the laptop would make 3.
A toshiba store!?
AOL junk.
All kinds of stuff that just eats up ram because a lot of it starts up as the computer loads.
A google toolbar which I don't use and find annoying because sometimes I type in a URL in the toolbar.

I guess not being able to pick what type of hardware goes into the laptop is fine, its just the extra software they toss in that is not worth time to look at. Maybe it would not be so bad if most of that stuff was not trial ware.

I bought a 700 dollar laptop, do they really think I am going to cough up another 400 bucks for microsoft office? And if I don't want a trial of XXXXX software, I end up nearly wreaking the computer trying to remove it, maybe they don't include a hardcopy of the OS because they know you are going to end up messing up your system removing the garbage software they installed on the machine in the first place ???

I am sort of tempted to format the drive and install Linux on it if I was sure the software I need to run the telescope and camera would work with it. As far as I know now days most of the stuff I use on PC has a mac counterpart

Next time I am at a place that has some computers I may just stop on over to the mac area :)

Sadly you mac fans, I do plan on keeping my desktop a PC :twisted: But as I said, when I need a new desktop, I just get the parts I want and custombuild it and I don't have to worry about any crap software (besides the OS, but that is a different story)

[Moppie]

At some point the big manufacturers will realise that not everyone wants the extra freebie added value trial software, and provide it as an option, the same way Apple provides iLife etc, as an option.

It is certainly a good reason to stay away from them.


But, there is a good reason why they do it, and it because the average consumer is still very ignorant when it comes to computers.


My neighbors are reasonably computer literate in the sense that they know how to use email, spread sheets, the internet, games etc.
They recently bought a new PC from a local wholesaler.
A very nice, mid range computer built with high quality parts.
It came assembled, with Vista and drivers installed with out any extra, un-needed software. These were also all supplied on discs with the manuals etc.

There were also all the extra cables, plugs and connectors that come with a high end graphics card and good off the shelf mother board. (DVi -HD and DVi - VGA adapters, VGA and DVi cables for the monitor, FDD and IDE cables etc).

This ended up completely confusing them and they were unable to set it up so asked me to help.
They managed to plug in the keyboard, mouse and power cable, but were confused by the monitor cables and adapters, and the surplus m/b cables.
They were also confused by having all the drivers and windows Vista supplied on discs, they thought they would have to install everything and set it up.


So good on the retailer for selling a nice clean system with everything needed to support it, but bad on them for not giving some basic instructions.


Of course Dell, HP, Toshiba etc, get around these sorts of problems by supplying as little as possible.
They go out of their way to make things as simple as possible and cause as little confusion as possible by dumbing down the systems as much as possible.
The average consumer doesn't see the loss of performance, they just see some nice freebies that look pretty, and enjoy how easy it was to just plug in the power and turn it on.
If they don't have any disks they dont have to worry about installing or doing anything technical, and when the computer stops working in 18 months they will either pay for support (sold with high margins) or just go and buy a new computer.

Clearly Apple have got the process of simplifying computer ownership to much more refined state than many of their competitors, and good on them.

[roman_t]

i heard what our gamers do - they install windows xp sp2 "game edition with vista interface" which is 200mb+ cd image. after that they update all drivers and thats all. no demos and trials etc.

[stevo8]

I bought a PC desktop about a year ago and felt the same frustration. After a few months of that frustration and all my trial programs running out and then constantly reminding me of it with pop up's, I unhooked the dell monitor(which is great btw) and hooked it to my macbook pro that is 4yrs old and never caused me one issue. Regardless of the mac vs pc, or windows vs OS X debate. Simple fact is, is that theres a higher percent of people that are happier with their mac's then there are people with pc's. No matter what the reason is, or what excuses there are, it comes down to being satisfied with the product you have. Even if it was just marketing, if the end result is the customer being happy, well then job well done. If your thinking of switching, go for it. Worst comes to worst you coud easily just buy another pc.

[[CaliGirl]]

Sadly this sort of rhetoric doesn't help, or add anything to the thread.


If your going to buy a computer with out fully checking out its specs, and what software it comes installed with, effectively buying in a state of ignorance, then well done to Toshiba for taking your money.

The fact you then bought an Apple in that same state, but are happy with it just shows that Apple are better at marketing, and have a better idea of what a growing number of consumers are looking for in a computer.
Well done Apple for taking your money, and bad on Toshiba for taking their customers for granted.


I bought my mac for the specs and the os....everything else was just an added bonus. It was not purchased in a "state of ignorance"...

[ck8l4]

Mac's come pre -installed with Ilife08 (for a few more weeks till ilife 09 is released), Textedit, Chess (The game), a dictionary, dashboard, DVD player, leopard accessories, itunes, photobooth, and some utilities.

Not all are nessacary but ilife is a great run of programs. It includes imovie, iphoto, iDVD, ichat, ical and pretty much any other program with I infront of it :P.
These can be deleted easily but they take up next to no space and can always be used for something.

[Tony-S]

You have to know where to look to delete all associated files completely. Just deleting the app leaves a lot of unnecessary files that take up gigabytes of hard drive space.

[slitherjef]

You have to know where to look to delete all associated files completely. Just deleting the app leaves a lot of unnecessary files that take up gigabytes of hard drive space.

I use the uninstall application. I simply don't delete the programs

[ck8l4]

You have to know where to look to delete all associated files completely. Just deleting the app leaves a lot of unnecessary files that take up gigabytes of hard drive space.

On mac there is this nifty little program called appdelete. Use it.

[DunnoWhen]

You have to know where to look to delete all associated files completely. Just deleting the app leaves a lot of unnecessary files that take up gigabytes of hard drive space.


Download this (http://konstochvanligasaker.se/apptrap/)little application. It cleans up all those associatd files for you.

[jetboy]

Home built PC's have zero unwanted bloat. Easy to upgrade as you know every bit of hardware installed. I could never buy a Mac with the performance I see with my PC for under $800. And down the road I simply buy a new processor (am2+) and bam!! upgrade.

[xn2b8r]

Home built PC's have zero unwanted bloat. Easy to upgrade as you know every bit of hardware installed. I could never buy a Mac with the performance I see with my PC for under $800. And down the road I simply buy a new processor (am2+) and bam!! upgrade.

Sort of like Samuel Adams Light? Real beer taste, no bloat?

Jetboy, how easy/hard is it to build your own PC if you don't have any experience? I'm comfortable swapping a hard drive or adding RAM, but that's about it.

[PixelMagic]

Building a PC is like playing with TinkerToys or Lego. If you can follow instructions you can put one together in about 90 minutes and then spend another hour or two installing software.

[MaxxuM]

Building a PC is like playing with TinkerToys or Lego. If you can follow instructions you can put one together in about 90 minutes and then spend another hour or two installing software.

Just to be fare, there are some downsides to building your own computer namely relying completely on yourself for support. Just putting a computer together and installing the OS is not always where things end. Debugging bad hardware can be extremely frustrating for beginners taking hours and hours to find the final problem. Then there are OS problems that can pop up. Though these things are rare, they do occur.

[PixelMagic]

I started building computers in the early 1980s with at TRS-80. Maybe I've just been lucky but I've built quite a number and I've never had any really serious problems.

[MaxxuM]

I started building computers in the early 1980s with at TRS-80. Maybe I've just been lucky but I've built quite a number and I've never had any really serious problems.

Perhaps you missed where I said beginners, not someone with near 30 years of experience beginning with building their own Tandy computers. In addition, what do you consider 'serious'? PC's are electrical devices, regardless of how good you think you are they should not be thereated as toys. If you meant never having issues with memory, cpu, motherboard and so on I just cannot believe that.

[E-Dude]

if I could get CS3 from my pc to my mac without having to buy a new version,

I am still wishing for a Mac of some sort but I have heard that you can call Adobe and they will transfer a Windows licence to OS X for free.

[morpheus6d9]

usually when i buy a new laptop i just format and do a fresh install

[Moppie]

Here in NZ there are 3 options for buying a computer:


Build it yourself
-Means you get total control, but you have to know a little more than the average user.
-However, most wholesalers offer quite good support if parts fail.
-Infinitely upgradable
Buy prebuilt complete in the box system, plug it in and turn it on.
-Perfect for those who are lazy, stupid, computer illiterate, or work in the industry and just want a nice easy solution they don't have to worry about.
-A few brands to choose from, Apple, Dell, and HP are the big 3 here for consumer system, add IBM and SUN Mircosystems if your into business systems.
- Easily the most popular solution.
- But you get a limited choice compared to building yourself, they often cost more, if you grab one of the budget systems you will end up with lower quality parts and more potential for parts or system failure.
-Most systems are now designed to limit upgradablity and make increasing use of propriety parts in order to encourage you to buy a complete new system (e.g Dell and Apple).
Buy pre-built from a wholesaler for example www.pbtech.co.nz
- Total freedom of choice, from complete prebuilt systems you plug and go, to the ability to build a system for you from your own, or recommended parts selection.
- System come free from any bloatware (unless you ask for it) and are built from high quality off the shelf parts, making them reliable and infinitely upgradable.


I consider option 1 great for those of us who know what we are doing, option 2 is great for a large number of consumer and business users who don't put high demand on their systems, and option 3 is great for those who need the flexibility required to built a great photo editing work station, but don't have the technical knowledge to do so.

Surly option 3 must exist in other countries around the world?

[Mark]

For me, I always buy a macbook pro 15 inch if I want a laptop and build a PC for OS X if I want a desktop :D I would be very unlikely to buy a mac pro ever, can you say overpriced!

[Tony-S]

I would be very unlikely to buy a mac pro ever, can you say overpriced!

Mac Pros are not overpriced. They are priced just as any other Xeon-based computer. If you don't believe me, go to Dell.com and price a 2.8 ghz T5400 (the same cpu/chipset as the Mac Pro).

[gary88]

...or click this link :)

http://www.macworld.com/article/52381/2006/08/macproprice.html

[Mark]

Mac Pros are not overpriced. They are priced just as any other Xeon-based computer. If you don't believe me, go to Dell.com and price a 2.8 ghz T5400 (the same cpu/chipset as the Mac Pro).

Why use Xeon though, how is it better than say core i7?
They need to make a workstation with single quad i7, or maybe even dual i7 if they so choose, with regular ddr3 ram not the stupidly expensive ram.....

[Moppie]

Why use Xeon though, how is it better than say core i7?



If your only photo editing, then anything beyond a Q6600 is over kill.
For high end video work, which the Mac Pro is designed for, then you need all the processors you can get.
Since Apple don't have any i7 based systems yet, you are left with the Xeons (I haven't even seen any dual i7 systems yet either).

The Mac Pro is a VERY high end computer, about as high performance and as high a quality as you could get when it came out, and if you try and build something similar off the shelf, it is also a very good deal.

The problem is the next step down, something like a single Core 2 Quad on a consumer level board like the P5K, with non-Server RAM and a 4-6 Hard drive bays simply doesn't exist in Apples line up.

You go straight from the consumer orientated iMac to the very high end video editing professional Mac Pro, and because Apple have much slower product release cycle that some of their competitors, you still have what is gradually becoming a discontinued family of processors from Intel.




Fortunately the Apple laptop line up is much better, from the very high end professional models, to mid range consumer models they have nice, well priced series of computers (the 17inch Mac Pro being the odd exception, it is IMO over priced).

[mikeassk]

Mac are just user friendly.
They are no better for real world use.
People that have less knowledge about computer maintenance are happier with mac for the simple fact that they are easier to forget about and just use into the ground.

[Moppie]

People that have less knowledge about computer maintenance are happier with mac for the simple fact that they are easier to forget about and just use into the ground.


That is not true, but it is a common miss-conception thanks to some very good marketing by Apple, some very bad marketing my MS, and some really low budget, low quality systems produced by companies like Dell.
It is a view often held by people who havn't actually used, or experienced a quality PC since they had to type a command into DOS.


I used to have a terrible computer. It crashed all the time, it had errors, it did the odd BSOD, it was everything that drives people to buy a Mac and gives PC's a bad name.

So I looked at buying a Mac, but at the time they were over priced here, so I did little research into what makes them so popular.

The answer is very simple, they use a very closed and propriety system, which eliminates the chances of hardware conflicts, and allows them to only use high quality hardware and cherry pick for what they think will work best and be easiest for consumers to use.


So I did the same thing.
I did an awful lot of research and built myself a new PC with Windows Vista.
That was in Novemeber 2007, and do you know how many problems I have had with it?
None.
Do you know how much maintiance I have done?
None.

Everything just works, infact I would describe my experiance with it like many Mac users describe thier experiances with thier iMacs and Macbooks.
It just works, and it is easy to use.


All I had to do was build a complete system, just like Apple do with the Macs, and get it right.

There is nothing inhierntly magical or super duper about a Mac, and the closed system, propriety design does have plenty of disadvantages.

All that Apple have done is seen the computer as an appliance, something that can be bought, plugged in, and used as easily a a toaster.
They have designed a system (hardware, OS etc) that does this, and marketed it accordingly.
In doing so they have created a fantastic product range and are capturing an increasing amount of the consumer market.


The same thing can be done with a PC, but it appears that Apples competitors are a bit slow on the uptake, and still live in a world where computers are complex and should only be operated by experts.

[MaxxuM]

The same thing can be done with a PC, but it appears that Apples competitors are a bit slow on the uptake, and still live in a world where computers are complex and should only be operated by experts.

This is the Wal-Mart age where cheaper is the number one goal of sellers - sell for more than Wal-Mart and you will will eventually go out of business. Apple has done something that BMW, Porsche, Audi and like companies - build an image of quality and then deliver a very good product. Without the image you're competing against the Wal-Mart's of the world. I like Wal-Mart, don't get me wrong, but when it comes to work I'll go with image + quality :)

[mikeassk]

That is not true, but it is a common miss-conception thanks to some very good marketing by Apple, some very bad marketing my MS, and some really low budget, low quality systems produced by companies like Dell.



So I did the same thing.
I did an awful lot of research and built myself a new PC with Windows Vista.
That was in Novemeber 2007, and do you know how many problems I have had with it?
None.
Do you know how much maintiance I have done?
None.





You do not relate to most of consumer world in this regard and thats were the split begins.

If someone, like my 63 year old mother, has one single simple glitch with her PC she quits immediately and calls me.

I cannot teach her how to properly maintain her computer when needed.

Your right,
I can set her up with any system as long as it is configured properly and it will be smooth sailing.

Not everyone has someone to help them out though.

Most people do not have the patience to deal with computers, on the way in or the way out.

They just want them to work( and lately) for better or for worse Mac, obviously more specifically their OS, is vastly more effective in this regard.

[Moppie]

You do not relate to most of consumer world in this regard and thats were the split begins.


They just want them to work( and lately) for better or for worse Mac, obviously more specifically their OS, is vastly more effective in this regard.


You might be missing the point.

If I can build a stable, easy to use, problem free computer, and Apple can build a stable, easy to use problem free computer, then surly Dell and HP should be able to do the same thing?

I happen to believe they do build easy to use, problem free computers, they just seem to have failed to market them as such, and they have developed, or are developing a bad image in the consumer market.


I am still amazed that Dell etc have not either developed their own software package similar to iLife, or asked Microsoft to do it for them.

To be totally honest, I am amazed that Dell etc, have not gone to Microsoft and got them to develop a special "Dell" operating system, that would really be nothing more than a rebranded version of windows with some nice intergrated software for the average consumer.
Given thier buying power with MS, that should not be hard to do.

[MaxxuM]

You might be missing the point.

If I can build a stable, easy to use, problem free computer, and Apple can build a stable, easy to use problem free computer, then surly Dell and HP should be able to do the same thing?

I happen to believe they do build easy to use, problem free computers, they just seem to have failed to market them as such, and they have developed, or are developing a bad image in the consumer market.


I am still amazed that Dell etc have not either developed their own software package similar to iLife, or asked Microsoft to do it for them.

To be totally honest, I am amazed that Dell etc, have not gone to Microsoft and got them to develop a special "Dell" operating system, that would really be nothing more than a rebranded version of windows with some nice intergrated software for the average consumer.
Given thier buying power with MS, that should not be hard to do.

Like I said above, they cannot do so because then they would have to charge as much as Apple and they would loose out against their rivals. It costs money (a lot) to use the best parts, develop a case that stands out and program your own 'good' software package.

[Moppie]

Not if they marketed them seperatly as a non budget brand.
Then they could sell thier budget PC's as well, and compete with Apple in the higher end consumer market.

I think at the moment they are hoping that Apple will only appeal to a much smaller share of the market, as they only offer a premium product, and the vast majority of consumers want to pay as little as possible.

[Mark]

Not if they marketed them seperatly as a non budget brand.
Then they could sell thier budget PC's as well, and compete with Apple in the higher end consumer market.

I think at the moment they are hoping that Apple will only appeal to a much smaller share of the market, as they only offer a premium product, and the vast majority of consumers want to pay as little as possible.

Isn't that what alienware have done, or do they also install crap software?

[MaxxuM]

Isn't that what alienware have done, or do they also install crap software?

I only set one up and it was before they were Dell's. Nope, they came pretty much as-is - no trialware or crapware. Now that they belong to Dell I'm sure they come with at least Google Desktop and Toolbar as every single Dell does now.

[Mark]

I only set one up and it was before they were Dell's. Nope, they came pretty much as-is - no trialware or crapware. Now that they belong to Dell I'm sure they come with at least Google Desktop and Toolbar as every single Dell does now.

Do they, what the hell is dell doing with their whole gaming line then, wouldn't they be competing against each other?! :confused:

What about IBM/lenovo? :)

[KayakPhotos]

Not if they marketed them seperatly as a non budget brand.
Then they could sell thier budget PC's as well, and compete with Apple in the higher end consumer market.

I think at the moment they are hoping that Apple will only appeal to a much smaller share of the market, as they only offer a premium product, and the vast majority of consumers want to pay as little as possible.

I think that this is a very good point. The challenge for the PC manufacturers is going to be overcoming the Mac reputation that has been built upon quality products, in general, and outstanding advertising.

[slitherjef]

usually when i buy a new laptop i just format and do a fresh install

Thats a very good idea! Too bad I did not get a hardcopy of the OS, otherwise I would have nothing to complain about because that was one of the first things I was going to do was wipe the hard drive

[MaxxuM]

That is not true, but it is a common miss-conception thanks to some very good marketing by Apple, some very bad marketing my MS, and some really low budget, low quality systems produced by companies like Dell.
It is a view often held by people who havn't actually used, or experienced a quality PC since they had to type a command into DOS.


I used to have a terrible computer. It crashed all the time, it had errors, it did the odd BSOD, it was everything that drives people to buy a Mac and gives PC's a bad name.

So I looked at buying a Mac, but at the time they were over priced here, so I did little research into what makes them so popular.

The answer is very simple, they use a very closed and propriety system, which eliminates the chances of hardware conflicts, and allows them to only use high quality hardware and cherry pick for what they think will work best and be easiest for consumers to use.


So I did the same thing.
I did an awful lot of research and built myself a new PC with Windows Vista.
That was in Novemeber 2007, and do you know how many problems I have had with it?
None.
Do you know how much maintiance I have done?
None.

Everything just works, infact I would describe my experiance with it like many Mac users describe thier experiances with thier iMacs and Macbooks.
It just works, and it is easy to use.


All I had to do was build a complete system, just like Apple do with the Macs, and get it right.

There is nothing inhierntly magical or super duper about a Mac, and the closed system, propriety design does have plenty of disadvantages.

All that Apple have done is seen the computer as an appliance, something that can be bought, plugged in, and used as easily a a toaster.
They have designed a system (hardware, OS etc) that does this, and marketed it accordingly.
In doing so they have created a fantastic product range and are capturing an increasing amount of the consumer market.


The same thing can be done with a PC, but it appears that Apples competitors are a bit slow on the uptake, and still live in a world where computers are complex and should only be operated by experts.

Well, I hope someone from the PC industry is reading our conversation. It looks like Microsoft announced today they are shedding 5,000 jobs while Apple is recording record sales/profits (despite Jobs' illness).

Apple has been about two things, excellence and creativity and it looks like their model is winning out despite the naysayer. The main reason Dell and their ilk can sell so cheaply is because of marketing. Profit's are not typically made on the PC sales but on residuals like trialware/adware/bundled sales. Remove these things and prices rise significantly. Like many here like to say, PCs cost less, so why fork out the extra cash for a pretty system? The very same thing will happen with any 'expert' class of PC - why pay more for a system that looks identical even if the parts are superior. It's the WalMart model again. WalMart trounced small family businesses with a cheaper, yet oft times less quality products than little shops that sell better quality products for more. Cheaper usually wins the day - until Apple came alone. They are not an anomaly however; we see it in other industries like audio (Bose) and vehicles (BMW & Audi).

I do not think Microsoft can accomplish what you are saying without changing their OS (moving completely to 64bit & signed drivers/software) and their image. As long as Microsoft keeps their OS so open they will continue to be plagued by rouge problems from badly written drivers and as long as people 'believe' in these problems (which are perpetuated by real and frequent stories across the internet) their image will not change. It's a vicious circle.

[Dan-o]

we see it in other industries like audio (Bose)

Not a good example of getting what you pay for.

[morpheus6d9]

Not a good example of getting what you pay for.

B - Buy
O - Other
S - Sound
E - Equipment

[Dan-o]

Yeah Bose is pretty hated on in the AV forums.

[MaxxuM]

Yep, I was speaking about image in the case of Bose - not quality. I went with Denon :)

[Billginthekeys]

Why use Xeon though, how is it better than say core i7?
They need to make a workstation with single quad i7, or maybe even dual i7 if they so choose, with regular ddr3 ram not the stupidly expensive ram.....
I don't think 8 gigs for $190 is stupidly expensive. Even the cheapest DDR3 from corsair or OCZ would be the same price. Now, buying ram FROM apple is stupidly expensive no matter what kind.
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/64FB2MPK08GB/

[BeritOlam]

Apple has been about two things, excellence and creativity and it looks like their model is winning out despite the naysayer.

That's certainly true right now, but it's a crap shoot as to whether they can keep growing at their current rate without suffering the same sorts of problems other growing companies face -- namely, quality control issues!

That's ultimately what tanked Packard Hell and Comcraq in the 90's -- market leaders at one time that simply grew too fast to offer a good product.

There's no reason why it can't happen to Apple too....ESPECIALLY if something happens to Jobs!!

This is one business where being on top isn't necessarily a good thing for long-term prognostication.

[MaxxuM]

That's certainly true right now, but it's a crap shoot as to whether they can keep growing at their current rate without suffering the same sorts of problems other growing companies face -- namely, quality control issues!

That's ultimately what tanked Packard Hell and Comcraq in the 90's -- market leaders at one time that simply grew too fast to offer a good product.

There's no reason why it can't happen to Apple too....ESPECIALLY if something happens to Jobs!!

This is one business where being on top isn't necessarily a good thing for long-term prognostication.


True true... All things eventually end. Apple has played it smart though by not competing in markets that it will not excel in, namely the mid-class & budget notebook PC market where it would have to directly compete with PC makers.