Designed Website

[amoergosum]

Hello,
the world of website creation is pretty confusing if you don't know a lot about it. So the first thing which comes to mind is let somebody else do it for you.
I know what I like to see but nothing about the technical website stuff.
So I checked out a number of sites of my favorite photographers and found one design which I really like. I don't say that I want to copy it but I really enjoy the simplicity and elegance of it >>> www.joeyl.com (http://www.joeyl.com)
His website loads reasonably quick, it looks stylish, there are no over the top flash elements and everything feels very intuitive.
So in the site credits I found the name of the designer who's based in LA.
I sent him a mail in order to ask about the costs. In his reply he wrote that
a site like Joey's with full client photo administration is going for $5000 and up.
There's no way I could afford that.
Is there a chance to get a site like that without paying a fortune?
cheers,
Ben

[Yeoer]

The site is 100% flash but you are right its not over done.

I think what make this site so good is the quality of the photographs. They are totally amazing. The subjects and use of light is just increadable!

With not so striking images that site may well not have caught your eye...

[amoergosum]

The site is 100% flash but you are right its not over done.

I think what make this site so good is the quality of the photographs. They are totally amazing. The subjects and use of light is just increadable!

With not so striking images that site may well not have caught your eye...

Well, of course you're right. A brilliant website needs brilliant photographs.

[AndreaBFS]

I'm not intending to sound rude, but the site looks pretty much like every other full flash template site out there. :::shrug:::: Perhaps he has a VERY custom backend, but even then I can't imagine how a designer could have spent $5,000 worth of time on that site.

[DDCSD]

Have a look at Bludomain's templates.
http://www.bludomain.com/

They have some very nice templates, but seem to have spotty customer service.

There are also a few other template sites with nice flash websites.

[MJPhotos24]

You can get templates a lot cheaper somewhere, or just build your own html site that looks similar in design but with no flash which is what I did as I don't want a flash site. Livebooks.com has a good reputation and know a couple photogs who use them to rave reviews.

[amoergosum]

Thank you for your replies so far!
Any other recommendations?

[Froggeh]

I'm not intending to sound rude, but the site looks pretty much like every other full flash template site out there. :::shrug:::: Perhaps he has a VERY custom backend, but even then I can't imagine how a designer could have spent $5,000 worth of time on that site.

Wow, to a professional web developer you do sound rude. If he works on $100/hour, then it's a half-day meeting with the client to get a feel for their identity, spec and travel. Then a day of concepts, and tidying up. A day creating a flash template, tweaking motion etc, and then 2 days writing a half-decent administration panel. Add the ability to add/edit sub-sections (sub-galleries) of the website, the obvious training in typography and graphic design that the web designer has had, there's a professional doing a very good job here (I'd rate it as 8+/10 for a flash site, my opinion).

Maybe I need to step off a hobby horse, but I'm at a loss to understand why "check out these $20/month options" are so highly regarded by the same people who'll pay $4000 for their wedding photographs, pp and album selection. There are professionals in every industry, and professionals cost associated money. We spend over $10k per annum on hardware & software licensing alone (per person) and we're not massive spenders in this regard.

To the OP, I'd start with questions like "how would you simplify the site you like", "do you have existing logo/branding", and have a minimum of three sites you like (and why), and also three sites you dislike (and why). I'm happy to help you shortlist web developers if you'd like a professional eye - pm me for creds. By using a single freelancer with the appropriate skillset in a cheaper locale, you should be able to get the costs down to the $2k mark for something professional without cutting (many) corners. Using a generic template may seem cost effective to start, but if you miss out on a big opportunity or wedding because your site looks the same as another company's, in all likelihood you won't hear about it. I understand your funds are limited, but can you tell us what kind of budget you're working with?

[AndreaBFS]

Wow, to a professional web developer you do sound rude.

I think I can speak on this topic since I've been in the industry for 15 years. Even in your own example, you've given him a few days of work. Let's say he works for a week... even two. Flash design isn't brain surgery. The .com bubble is over -- the days of getting $5k for a couple days work are over (or should be!). And as someone who once billed $12k for a site much simpler than this that took all of 5 hours to do, let me tell you how I wish those days were still here.

It's frankly insulting to people like me who know the smoke and mirrors. It's what makes people distrust us and move toward the template options, forcing developers to dig even deeper in their desperation to grab higher prices. If he wants to pay $5k for something most beginner designers could churn out in a day, that's no skin off my nose. Doesn't mean that site is worth $5k.

but if you miss out on a big opportunity or wedding because your site looks the same as another company's, in all likelihood you won't hear about it.

Can you quantify for me what the average wedding customer will see in the site he posted that will make it worth $4,000 more than the other options out there?

[pauleywauley]

Hey there, I just had my site redesigned.. actually, It's going to launch on Feb. 1st. Here's an example of how mine would look in the browser - now, this is a completely custom site, I had it designed in a minimalist way because, well - that's my taste ;-)

http://www.stuartbradleystudio.com/POTN/comp-2.0_revise3_about_sub.gif

I'm working with the designer at www.yourjustlucky.com (http://www.yourjustlucky.com/) .. and here is his blog (http://jutlucky.tumblr.com). He's a solid designer with a firm grasp on design elements & has developed tee shirts for some major bands (ie fall out boy & copeland)


I actually work with this company now as an account manager / sales director. Let me know if you'd like to talk further!

Paul Carlson
Stuart Bradley Studio
www.stuartbradleystudio.com (http://www.stuartbradleystudio.com/)
paul.carlson@gmail.com

[turbo212003]

I think I can speak on this topic since I've been in the industry for 15 years. Even in your own example, you've given him a few days of work. Let's say he works for a week... even two. Flash design isn't brain surgery. The .com bubble is over -- the days of getting $5k for a couple days work are over (or should be!). And as someone who once billed $12k for a site much simpler than this that took all of 5 hours to do, let me tell you how I wish those days were still here.

It's frankly insulting to people like me who know the smoke and mirrors. It's what makes people distrust us and move toward the template options, forcing developers to dig even deeper in their desperation to grab higher prices. If he wants to pay $5k for something most beginner designers could churn out in a day, that's no skin off my nose. Doesn't mean that site is worth $5k.



Can you quantify for me what the average wedding customer will see in the site he posted that will make it worth $4,000 more than the other options out there?

For such a "professional", you always know sooo much more than everybody and have an abrasive personality. Not only you're belittling him, I have seen dozens of times when you ALWAYS have to have the upper hand. Kind of sad really.

[Yeoer]

For such a "professional", you always know sooo much more than everybody and have an abrasive personality. Not only you're belittling him, I have seen dozens of times when you ALWAYS have to have the upper hand. Kind of sad really.


And no link to a website either... as a web designer for 15 years i would imagine you have your own site?

[klp]

http://www.entheosweb.com/

This site has a lot of flash and non-flash templates at a fairly low price (unless you want exclusivity on your chosen template in which case you're talking loads). Beneficial, I guess, to anyone who's possibly starting out and wants quick web exposure...

[turbo212003]

And no link to a website either... as a web designer for 15 years i would imagine you have your own site?


I think you quoted the wrong person....

[MJPhotos24]

Nailed that review on the head Gavin...

[AndreaBFS]

I removed it because I knew the first thing you would do is go to my site and make this thread about me. I nailed that one, didn't I? It's not about me. And no matter how desperate you are to believe otherwise, I am still entitled to the opinion that the designer didn't deserve $5,000 for the posted site.

Obviously you have a hard time with me simply voicing my opinion in response to a thread that ASKED FOR OPINIONS on web design and the site in question. I didn't come in here unsolicited and force an opinion on anyone. It was requested and I offered it.

Why not just try to have your own opinion instead of feeling the need to slam someone else for theirs? I'm sure you had something to offer on the topic instead of just making it into an attack on me and my qualifications. It's a shame you had to take the thread in that direction.

My only opinion so far is that $5,000 is too much for the posted site. Is it REALLY worth all of this to desperately prove me wrong? How about instead answering the question of quantifying what it is about that site that makes it worth $5,000? Or can you?

[pauleywauley]

I removed it because I knew the first thing you would do is go to my site and make this thread about me. I nailed that one, didn't I? It's not about me. And no matter how desperate you are to believe otherwise, I am still entitled to the opinion that the designer didn't deserve $5,000 for the posted site.

Obviously you have a hard time with me simply voicing my opinion in response to a thread that ASKED FOR OPINIONS on web design and the site in question. I didn't come in here unsolicited and force an opinion on anyone. It was requested and I offered it.

Why not just try to have your own opinion instead of feeling the need to slam someone else for theirs? I'm sure you had something to offer on the topic instead of just making it into an attack on me and my qualifications. It's a shame you had to take the thread in that direction.

My only opinion so far is that $5,000 is too much for the posted site. Is it REALLY worth all of this to desperately prove me wrong? How about instead answering the question of quantifying what it is about that site that makes it worth $5,000? Or can you?



It's clear to me (and apparently everyone else) that you don't understand design at all.

Good design does not equal flashy/over-the-top/time consuming design.

Why is it that a pair of Nike running shoes will cost you $100 and a similar looking pair at payless will cost you $25? They are both made of rubber, fabrics & laces. They cost about the same amount to produce in terms of actual materials costs. Why the difference in price then? It's the small things/details and more importantly - the research & planning put into the shoe. They have a targeted purpose with engineers & designers spending months on that pair of shoes making them just right for running. Do you own a pair of nikes? Why not buy the pair at payless if you think 'all is equal in the world of design'.

Sheesh, it's scary to see the advice given on this forum..

For the OP - There are many budget websites our there:

http://www.bludomain.com/ (http://www.bludomain.com/) (flash & seem to be very popular, heard they have lousy customer service.

http://www.prophotoblogs.com/ (these look more attractive to me, flash can be a burden to some clients - wordpress is very sophisticated & can do almost anything)

http://www.livebooks.com/ (Some very high paid professionals use these sites. I considered going this route - but found a fantastic designer www.yourjustlucky.com that could create a site for less & I had the chance to work 1 on 1 with the designer)

I would personally reccomend sitting down with a designer 1-on-1, the designer will truly tailor the website for your target market. Furthering your brand & will hopefully help you solidify your company's position in the market place.

Your website should be a part of your overall marketing plan.
- What does your photography company do specifically?
- Who is your target market?
- How is the best way to reach them?
- Do all of your marketing materials solidify your brand image?
- Is there consistency throughout?
- etc, etc, etc..

It's more than a website. ;-)

[AndreaBFS]

I think it's hilarious that I was told *I* was belittling just by having an opinion with some of the responses that have been made here. Who's belittling whom? I've lost track.

Yes, yes. I know the drill. If I don't believe that the site is worth $5k it's because I know nothing. You got me. You win. ;)

Again, still waiting for someone to quantify the aspect of that site that says "$5,000!" to you. Because your analogy with Nike is completely invalid. Nike is a brand name. A site designer is completely invisible to the end user so their relative brand value is irrelevant in the end result.

[pauleywauley]

I think it's hilarious that I was told *I* was belittling just by having an opinion with some of the responses that have been made here. Who's belittling whom? I've lost track.

Yes, yes. I know the drill. If I don't believe that the site is worth $5k it's because I know nothing. You got me. You win. ;)

It's just short-sighted. ;-)

Joey L's designer has created a site that helps him display his photography that pulls in thousands upon thousands of dollars shooting bands, celebrities & box office movie artwork. Is it the website that makes Joey what he is? No. Did the designer earn his $5,000. Yes.

[AndreaBFS]

Sheesh, it's scary to see the advice given on this forum..

Oh, wait. I forgot to address this. :lol: Scary to hear that someone who is just starting out in business shouldn't need to spend $5,000 on a site that quite obviously is very standard in its design and function?

Strange, since you went on to suggest several options in the end of your post that were much lower cost options that are sure to get the OP a site that is quite close to the one he posted for thousands less.

I honestly can't tell where we disagree, but somehow you suggesting that the OP doesn't need to spend $5,000 to get what he needs is enlightened and me saying it means I know nothing.

Rich! :lol:

[pauleywauley]

Oh, wait. I forgot to address this. :lol: Scary to hear that someone who is just starting out in business shouldn't need to spend $5,000 on a site that quite obviously is very standard in its design and function?

Strange, since you went on to suggest several options in the end of your post that were much lower cost options that are sure to get the OP a site that is quite close to the one he posted for thousands less.

I honestly can't tell where we disagree, but somehow you suggesting that the OP doesn't need to spend $5,000 to get what he needs is enlightened and me saying it means I know nothing.

Rich! :lol:


Those websites were quite helpful to him, eh? ;-)

Try being helpful for a change.

[AndreaBFS]

It was helpful to bring to the table the fact that he did not have to spend that kind of money for a simple flash site. I only had a few minutes at the time. I wasn't aware that we had rules about how much information we had to offer in each post... and who exactly is the helpfulness officer who enforces these infractions?

Was it helpful to bog down the thread with attacks on me and how little I know and understand when my opinion was actually exactly the same as yours?

[Yeoer]

I think you quoted the wrong person....


nope... i was agreeing with what you were saying and just adding to it... ;)

[Yeoer]

I removed it because I knew the first thing you would do is go to my site and make this thread about me. I nailed that one, didn't I? It's not about me. And no matter how desperate you are to believe otherwise, I am still entitled to the opinion that the designer didn't deserve $5,000 for the posted site.


Fair enough can you point us to one of the main sites you have designed.

Just out of interest how much would charge for this kind of standard site?

[MJPhotos24]

Honestly, only JoeyL or the web designer can explain why his site costs $5,000. You're seeing one part of it as far as you know. You have no clue what the back end is set up like, no clue what the package includes at all, so until you do it's pretty much a who knows and criticism of his price is not valid.

I've designed non-flash sites for 10 years now for bands/label/my own ventures and it is true sites that cost $5,000 back in the day do not get that much now as technology has changed, but there sure are still sites that cost that much and higher. Plenty of simple looking sites that have a huge back end that you don't see. Looking at my site it's pretty simple (see note at bottom), but the cost is somewhere around $700/year and of course includes no design or upkeep charges because I do it myself. One looking at it though wouldn't assume that much. You don't see what is all entailed in it though. So to the OP, yes you can get a similar site for less but you wouldn't get all that's included in his.


Note: I butchered my sales site re-doing it so don't judge my site building off that ;) Also, I did do flash for a little bit but shifted focus to the photography business than web building so haven't been doing them for anyone else in awhile.

[AndreaBFS]

Fair enough can you point us to one of the main sites you have designed.

Just out of interest how much would charge for this kind of standard site?

As I said, this thread isn't about me or all of you ganging up on me to bash my work. If in the future I ask for critique on a design, then you can feel free to jump in a kick me as much as you'd like. As of now, the only one who has asked for advice in this thread is the OP and he's the only person to whom I've offered any.

There are a few people who tend to come in late and bash the opinions of others and pick fights instead of just offering their own opinion and moving on. I don't tend to get along with those people very well and I know exactly what would happen if I posted my work now. Thankfully there are 10,000 other people here who aren't like them. :)

[T2000]

Not to hijack a thread but on the topic of building a web site:

My site is all flash.

I've been told (not the details of course) that it is possible to generate a searchable HTML site from my flash site?

Can someone point me to a source for this and give me an idea what it cost?

Also, does that mean there are two sites available to the public or that the HTML site is hidden from the public but someone how viewable by the search engines?

I guess I'm a bit confused about what has to be done to make a flash site searchable.

Basically, what is the best method (and about how much does it cost) to make a flash site searchable. So that text within the flash site is available to search engines ?

[MJPhotos24]

Not to hijack a thread but on the topic of building a web site:

My site is all flash.

I've been told (not the details of course) that it is possible to generate a searchable HTML site from my flash site?

Can someone point me to a source for this and give me an idea what it cost?

Also, does that mean there are two sites available to the public or that the HTML site is hidden from the public but someone how viewable by the search engines?

I guess I'm a bit confused about what has to be done to make a flash site searchable.

Basically, what is the best method (and about how much does it cost) to make a flash site searchable. So that text within the flash site is available to search engines ?

Not sure cost but there is two ways to do it. You can have two sites, one flash and one html (most have a splash page so the user has a choice which to use or a default - flash or html - and you can choose to go to the other once it's loaded). Or, I know livebooks has a "hidden" html page so it shows up in searches but redirects to your flash site. Personally I like the idea of having both, but it means double the upkeep.

[timbop]

wow. Reading the personal attacks in this thread, I thought I was mistakenly at dpreview.

I assume this is an ongoing grudge match, but holy cow guys lighten up. I didn't see anything in Andrea's post to warrant the responses. I do think it is a little hipocrytical to bash a web designer for charging $5K for a week's work; brides pay that much for what is in their eyes a single day's work.

[amoergosum]

http://www.prophotoblogs.com/ (these look more attractive to me, flash can be a burden to some clients - wordpress is very sophisticated & can do almost anything)


Regarding wordpress >>>
If you want to upload a theme you have to have a web host, right?
How does it work exactly?

[BscPhoto]

My wife is a web designer, (that means I am last in line to get anything done)
The one thing that is the norm for photographers is a flash website, the one thing that hurts most photographers is having a flash website. Not everyone has good enough internet and has no patience for loading, or they have an older computer and your website might not load or will require the customer to download a current flash player. There are other ways to have a website that looks like flash but isn't . Much more complicated but better for everyone. Also flash websites have very little text or even "alt tags" this means your search engine compatibility is poor and it will take you forever if at all to get a decent page ranking.
You want someone to type in -- wedding photographer and your site to come up? Well you either have to have a very experienced web designer or fill your website with descriptive text that no one will read.
If you need help my wife can be reached at web design for idiots (http://webdesignforidiots.net)

[babuszka]

Do you own a pair of nikes? Why not buy the pair at payless if you think 'all is equal in the world of design'.
:lol: Agree.

I worked at payless a long time ago. :o