Youth sports photography question(s)

[BEphoto]

A friend of mine that I work with is also a college basketball coach. He said that in the past he has seen photographers shooting during events then sellng prints immediatly after the game. He told me that he wasn't sure what kind of permission they had gotten, and that the parents really liked the idea.

I'm not really wanting to do the after game prints, but possibly offer photos for sale on a smugmug site or something similar.

My question is, what type of permission is needed to shoot and sell photos from a sporting event at a public field/school? Would I need to get model releases from any recognizable person in every photo? How would you market your site to the parents and attendees of these events?

I contacted a local little league branch to try and get info, but I think they misunderstood my question and thought I was trying to be their official team photographer, not that I was freelancing and trying to sell the images on my own personal website.

I know things can get a little hairy when taking pictures of kids, especially when none of them are your own child. How do I avoid any awkwardness this may cause?

Do any of you do this regularly? How did you obtain permission and how is it working out for you?

This sounds like something I would enjoy doing and would greatly appreciate any information you can provide.

Btw, sorry if this has been asked a million times over. I did a search but didn't really find anything relating to my specific questions.

Thanks again!


-Brad

[Dennis_Hammer]

Basically the short down and dirty answer is this. If its public property you can shoot whatever you want. You may run into problems if a league or school has an exclusive contract with a photographer. There has been some debate here about whether you can shoot or not there. I have never had an issue shooting anywhere or any game. You don't need a model release unless you are using the photo in a commercial endeavor and selling them to parents is not commercial use. Basically using the photo in an ad is commercial use. Now I am over simplifying but thats the long and short of it really.

Here if your gonna sell online have a reputable lab to use. I use exposuremanager.com you can't beat them. Try this link and you can get a free month and a discount. There customer service is unbelievable and they the sit is highly customizeable.

http://www.exposuremanager.com/aff/hammerphotos

[SuzyView]

My sons are in a local soccer league and I take pictures for the teams. I don't ask permission and I talk to parents right up front. Everyone knows me. I don't do it for money because the league has hired photographers. I shoot for parents and give them the CD's at the end of the year. No one is allowed to post the images on line, only for private use.

Now, if I was to do this professionally, offer my services to the league, I would run into parents wanting freebies all the time. It happens. And permission from other team's parents. I think when I sign my sons up there is a photo release for the league to use and that is it.

All the above being said, still, if you have the desire to try, there is no loss in trying. You need to know that parents guard their children and some will be most obnoxious no matter what. I even get annoying parents and I do it for free! So, be warned that any time you deal with children, you will have some unwanted issues.

[amfoto1]

Hi Brad,

You might want to check out the search feature here on POTN. I can't imagine how many times these questions have been asked and answered.

You'll find a "Similar Threads" feature at the bottom of your post, too.

[MJPhotos24]

He told me that he wasn't sure what kind of permission they had gotten, and that the parents really liked the idea.

More than likely they got permission from the league, are official photogs for that league, or something along those lines. Noone should be showing up and doing this unannounced or just on a whim.

I'm not really wanting to do the after game prints, but possibly offer photos for sale on a smugmug site or something similar.

Prints after games (on site) is a lot more sales usually because it's an impulse buy to have it "now". Online sales will not be as good, though in some areas sales are always good and in others they are not.

SmugMug and Exposure Manager seem to be winning the race of the two best companies out there to sell online. You can find info on that all over on here...and we all have referal links to share, :p.
http://www.exposuremanager.com/aff/mikejanesphotography

My question is, what type of permission is needed to shoot and sell photos from a sporting event at a public field/school?

Have to get a few things straight first, a school is not public. A street, sidewalk, etc. is public. Just because a school is a public school does not mean anyone can walk in and shoot there, you need permission. If the league plays at a public park it does not automatically mean you can shoot there as well, if they are paying the town or city to use the field you still need permission. It's not a pick up game so things differ.

Would I need to get model releases from any recognizable person in every photo?

Not unless using it for commercial purposes such as advertising, marketing materials, a consumer product, etc. Prints are considered editorial by U.S. law. When selling novelty products it's the parents putting the image on those products so no worries about a release there either. You can post them on your site, some like to use a password while others don't.

How would you market your site to the parents and attendees of these events?

Just action shots you need cards to hand out, have the announcers put it on the speaker every so often during the games if they have a system. Have an assistant hand out stuff if need be so you don't waste shooting time, put flyers by the concession stand, etc.

I know things can get a little hairy when taking pictures of kids, especially when none of them are your own child. How do I avoid any awkwardness this may cause?

I got asked to do youth photos by parents and at first was a little weird, I was used to taking images of pro athletes, not kids where only a few parents knew me so felt out of place. At first I was not official with the league - and yes I made sure noone had the official deal before shooting. It was a little strange, but the best thing I did was land the T&I deal and the action deal - so now was official for the league in both and the awkwardness went away. Thought at first it'd be a PITA to do both but doing the T&I helps get to know the kids and has been fun, not to mention better money than action by FAR.

*** That official deal, you do not want to go in there undercutting someone who landed a contract or stepping on toes. It gives you a really bad name in the business (btw, not saying you would or this is the case here - just for info purposes). Parents shoot among themselves and share the images all the time, but another "pro" coming in and doing it is shady and a name can be ruined (yours). I know an "aspiring photographer" as he has it on his site that kept doing this and didn't realize he PO'd the wrong photogs and is pretty much black balled in his area. Luckily he's not in my area but a few big name guys in the city he is had enough and haven't seen him in over a year now.

Do any of you do this regularly? How did you obtain permission and how is it working out for you?

Yes, and differs. T&I is where the money is more than action around here. When shooting bigger/national type showcases those do great - but not easy to land. Depends on your area a lot, some are better than others.

Btw, sorry if this has been asked a million times over. I did a search but didn't really find anything relating to my specific questions.

Definitely been answered on here before several times, but who knows what search combination comes up with the right answers sometimes.

[BEphoto]

MJPhotos24, thanks very much for your input. Much appreciated.

One thing i just thought of is that my wife's younger brother is very active in his high school athletics, playing basketball and baseball, and also is in the choir along with a zillion other things. Im wondering if i just show up to shoot his events for my in-laws, if i can talk to a lot of the other parents there and see if they would purchase shots if they were made available.

They live in a very nice area and go to probably the most wealthy high school in my city, so if anyone is going to buy up prints, you would think they would.

thanks again to everyone else who gave input. I will continue contacting local sports teams and schools and see how they approach freelancers. Hopefully ill have my 70-200 2.8IS by next week and can maybe start soon!

[MJPhotos24]

I'll tell you right now as a high school coach if you did just show up and start shooting I'd question who you were, what your intentions are, etc. I've done it before, stopping my teams warm-ups once to ask who the guy was with the camera. Luckily turned out to be a grandfather of one of my girls, but it was late in the year and never seen the guy so had to check and make sure he's not some random guy trying to shoot.

You really have to make sure first that noone else has the league or team contract before shooting, and parents won't know and/or care at times to tell you. Personally, I would plan to see the event ahead of time and contact the coach or AD to get permission and not just show up unannounced. You'll find a few threads on here of people telling there story of how they did this and got thrown out - may not happen to you, but it's just a good idea to go through proper channels first. Plus if this is an area that parents will buy you could land the official deal and do good with the school. You start with one district or school and build from that. Starting with that wealthy district is always a good idea :)

I shoot a few sports here but not all for the school, mainly because the coaches from certain sports invited me - other sports haven't and even though the AD is fine with it I'd rather go to the events I'm asked to instead of just go. So my deal with the school is with the coaches, not the athletic department or AD. The youth league though it's the league so official for both T&I and action.

[BEphoto]

if im there with my in-laws to take pictures of their son would i still need to get permission?

[MJPhotos24]

It really depends on the school, some you may need to while others you don't. Usually the case would be no, you can go do pics of your relative - but once you start trying to sell prints and all that you enter a grey area.

[BEphoto]

Gotcha. Thanks again for all of your advise.

[Redfish]

Suzyview - ever think that parents want "Freebies" because of people like you that shoot when a league hires a pro and you shoot and give images away for free.......... go figure

[Mike R]

He told me that he wasn't sure what kind of permission they had gotten, and that the parents really liked the idea.

More than likely they got permission from the league, are official photogs for that league, or something along those lines. Noone should be showing up and doing this unannounced or just on a whim.

I'm not really wanting to do the after game prints, but possibly offer photos for sale on a smugmug site or something similar.

Prints after games (on site) is a lot more sales usually because it's an impulse buy to have it "now". Online sales will not be as good, though in some areas sales are always good and in others they are not.

SmugMug and Exposure Manager seem to be winning the race of the two best companies out there to sell online. You can find info on that all over on here...and we all have referal links to share, :p.
http://www.exposuremanager.com/aff/mikejanesphotography

My question is, what type of permission is needed to shoot and sell photos from a sporting event at a public field/school?

Have to get a few things straight first, a school is not public. A street, sidewalk, etc. is public. Just because a school is a public school does not mean anyone can walk in and shoot there, you need permission. If the league plays at a public park it does not automatically mean you can shoot there as well, if they are paying the town or city to use the field you still need permission. It's not a pick up game so things differ.

Would I need to get model releases from any recognizable person in every photo?

Not unless using it for commercial purposes such as advertising, marketing materials, a consumer product, etc. Prints are considered editorial by U.S. law. When selling novelty products it's the parents putting the image on those products so no worries about a release there either. You can post them on your site, some like to use a password while others don't.

How would you market your site to the parents and attendees of these events?

Just action shots you need cards to hand out, have the announcers put it on the speaker every so often during the games if they have a system. Have an assistant hand out stuff if need be so you don't waste shooting time, put flyers by the concession stand, etc.

I know things can get a little hairy when taking pictures of kids, especially when none of them are your own child. How do I avoid any awkwardness this may cause?

I got asked to do youth photos by parents and at first was a little weird, I was used to taking images of pro athletes, not kids where only a few parents knew me so felt out of place. At first I was not official with the league - and yes I made sure noone had the official deal before shooting. It was a little strange, but the best thing I did was land the T&I deal and the action deal - so now was official for the league in both and the awkwardness went away. Thought at first it'd be a PITA to do both but doing the T&I helps get to know the kids and has been fun, not to mention better money than action by FAR.

*** That official deal, you do not want to go in there undercutting someone who landed a contract or stepping on toes. It gives you a really bad name in the business (btw, not saying you would or this is the case here - just for info purposes). Parents shoot among themselves and share the images all the time, but another "pro" coming in and doing it is shady and a name can be ruined (yours). I know an "aspiring photographer" as he has it on his site that kept doing this and didn't realize he PO'd the wrong photogs and is pretty much black balled in his area. Luckily he's not in my area but a few big name guys in the city he is had enough and haven't seen him in over a year now.

Do any of you do this regularly? How did you obtain permission and how is it working out for you?

Yes, and differs. T&I is where the money is more than action around here. When shooting bigger/national type showcases those do great - but not easy to land. Depends on your area a lot, some are better than others.

Btw, sorry if this has been asked a million times over. I did a search but didn't really find anything relating to my specific questions.

Definitely been answered on here before several times, but who knows what search combination comes up with the right answers sometimes.

This should be more required reading by anyone who wants to shoot local sports. Nice job Mike

[mrerico]

Could you get in any legal trouble by taking pictures at a youth sports event and posting them to your website for sale? By this I am not talking about selling commercially or anything like that just selling normal prints on smugmug or zenfolio. Could a parent file a lawsuit against you for posting their son/daughter on an internet site for print sales?


I am just wondering because I know some parents who get really mad if they see a photog post their childs picture online without permission. Im sorry if I am not being clear it's hard to explain what I am trying to say.

[Mike R]

Could you get in any legal trouble by taking pictures at a youth sports event and posting them to your website for sale? By this I am not talking about selling commercially or anything like that just selling normal prints on smugmug or zenfolio. Could a parent file a lawsuit against you for posting their son/daughter on an internet site for print sales?


I am just wondering because I know some parents who get really mad if they see a photog post their childs picture online without permission. Im sorry if I am not being clear it's hard to explain what I am trying to say.

If you're recognized by the event officials as the event photographer, you shouldn't have a problem as long as you're only selling to the parents. Most parents want shots of their kids playing a sport. I think the worse thing that would happen is that an irate parent would demand that you take the photos off line but I would insist that they tell me the file names of all shots that her child is in. I've been shooting HS sports and cheerleading competitions for 2 years and never had a problem with a parent, However, I did have a problem where a man from another state ordered over $200 worth of prints of middle school cheerleaders from 4 schools in another state. After calling him and determining that he had no right to the photos, I cancelled his order and notified the school where the event was held. I'm sure that if I sold the shots to him and the parents found out about it, they would come after me and I wouldn't blame them.

Never just show up at an event and start shooting. Most of the time there's already a photographer there that has an agreement with the officials

[mrerico]

Mike R - Of course I would not just show up at an event and start shooting. That would be really bad. No, instead my friend is a coach for pop warner and asked me if I would like to come out and take pictures. So if I do decide to photograph events my friend will help me get aquatinted with the event officials.

Thanks for clearing that up by the way.

[Mike R]

Mike R - Of course I would not just show up at an event and start shooting. That would be really bad. No, instead my friend is a coach for pop warner and asked me if I would like to come out and take pictures. So if I do decide to photograph events my friend will help me get aquatinted with the event officials.

Thanks for clearing that up by the way.

You're fortunate to have an inside connection. The amount of pople that want to do this type of photography is incredible and it can be very difficult to get involved in it. Be sure to go to the games with a supply of business cards and have a sales type web site up and running before the first game.

Another profitable thing to do is to sell the team a slide show for their annual banquet, after all, you will already have the shots for it.
Best of luck and enjoy it!

[MJPhotos24]

Could you get in any legal trouble by taking pictures at a youth sports event and posting them to your website for sale? By this I am not talking about selling commercially or anything like that just selling normal prints on smugmug or zenfolio. Could a parent file a lawsuit against you for posting their son/daughter on an internet site for print sales?


I am just wondering because I know some parents who get really mad if they see a photog post their childs picture online without permission. Im sorry if I am not being clear it's hard to explain what I am trying to say.

It depends on the league, if you look at the official little league rules they do not allow you to post images online that feature there logo. However, if it does not show there logo they say in there guidelines they have no say over it. After shooting a game you own the rights, and U.S. law says prints are editorial - though leagues disagree at times and why you often have to agree to certain terms when shooting an event. So even though legally many times you may be in the clear the school/league can just not allow you access anymore.

Parents can complain about the posting but there's nothing illegal in general terms unless you're violating an agreement you had to shoot in the first place. Someone asks you to remove them then put a removal fee in place - say $25 for removal of images featuring only there child, however if it's a group shot or more than one say it won't be removed.

Mike, remember reading that before - very weird situation. I've had a few orders asking "who is this" and usually will contact someone (parent, guardian, player if older) but they always turned out to be relatives so far. Did you get his reasoning behind ordering?

[tomd]

THIS (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=474480&highlight=unsolicited) link has some information that may be helpful.

[Mike R]

Mike, remember reading that before - very weird situation. I've had a few orders asking "who is this" and usually will contact someone (parent, guardian, player if older) but they always turned out to be relatives so far. Did you get his reasoning behind ordering?
Will PM you

[camoffi]

From what I have seen, many of the leagues have a disclaimer included in their registration paperwork that states that photo's can and will be taken. I have had no issues so far.
If you are still having a problem, use a site that you can make the gallery private and then give the code out to just the teams parents. This way they can feel a bit more comfortable with knowing that their childs picture is not open for the whole world.

Just a suggestion..as I thought about these things in my first year of shooting youth sports