HS BBall with On Camera Flash - Results Inside [Archive]

snyderman

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 09:43

And as you can see, didn't turn out as well as shooting ambient light. Camera is 30D, flash is 430 EX II. Flash on ETTL, camera at 1/250 and ISO 400-800. Settings on Flash were: zoom 105; +0; used a Sto-Fen diffuser and bounced the flash off the floor.

Results are lacking. Anything I can do differently next time with the on-camera flash to maybe get better results?

1. This was with the 85mm f/1.8

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a310/dsnyder160/IMG_2999.jpg

2. This was probably with the Sigma 70/200

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a310/dsnyder160/IMG_3097.jpg

3. This was definitely with the 70/200

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a310/dsnyder160/IMG_3160.jpg

Different flash settings? Better way to employ the flash? Different camera settings? Please recommend ways to make these better for me? thank you very much!

dave

namasste

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 11:11

snyderman

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 11:52

Dave, hate to tell ya this but with just the single flah, you need to shoot it direct to get clean results and limit ghosting. Action is good but the bounce is killing you and probably messin with your WB big time too.

As in 'point the flash directly at the action?' If so, I can do that. Idea was bouncing off floor might make it less obtrusive to the players.

Thanks for your expert advice. Very much appreciate your helping me to get better.

dave

Simon Turkin

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 12:26

refs got a large stomach

northpointphoto

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 12:28

As in 'point the flash directly at the action?' If so, I can do that. Idea was bouncing off floor might make it less obtrusive to the players.

Thanks for your expert advice. Very much appreciate your helping me to get better.

dave

First off, why in the world would you bounce off the floor? If you going to bounce a flash either bounce off a wall behind you or the ceiling.

Im going to have to agree with Scott. With an on camera flash, your best results are going to come from powering up and bouncing off the back wall or powering down and shooting directly at the action.

Dont worry about distracting the players. I've been shooting sports for a while and have never had a complaint from a player, coach, official, etc about my flashes and I use more than one (see this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=635625)).

Simon Turkin

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 12:58

snyderman

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:00

refs got a large stomach

Agreed. Also, his fat rear-end kept getting in the way of potential good shots!

dave

snyderman

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:04

First off, why in the world would you bounce off the floor? If you going to bounce a flash either bounce off a wall behind you or the ceiling.

Response: Ceiling is GREEN! Walls behind me are padded in red, (you might be able to see in one or more shots) and the other end of the gym is a blood red, floor-to-ceiling heavy fabric material gym divider.

Im going to have to agree with Scott. With an on camera flash, your best results are going to come from powering up and bouncing off the back wall or powering down and shooting directly at the action.

Response: Again, see above. Choice are limited in this venue. Like the idea of bouncing it from behind off a wall. Great idea. Thank.s

Dont worry about distracting the players. I've been shooting sports for a while and have never had a complaint from a player, coach, official, etc about my flashes and I use more than one (see this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=635625)).

Response: Thank you. Onto your thread!

dave

snyderman

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:06

Dont worry about distracting the players. I've been shooting sports for a while and have never had a complaint from a player, coach, official, etc about my flashes and I use more than one (see this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=635625)).

Thats a lot of lighting[/quote]

That sir, if incredible! The results are SI quality! I'm still VERY new to this and have limited gear and funds. Maybe next year a couple more strobes and better setup is possible. I've bookmarked your post for reference.

Thank you.

dave

Simon Turkin

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:17

Thats a lot of lighting

That sir, if incredible! The results are SI quality! I'm still VERY new to this and have limited gear and funds. Maybe next year a couple more strobes and better setup is possible. I've bookmarked your post for reference.

Thank you.

dave[/quote]

just wanted to make sure you know thats not mine

Magic 24

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:53

Magic 24

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:54

Hey...here's two more!

superdiver

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 13:56

How do you guys handle long bursts of shots, or do you just shoot one at a time?

snyderman

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 15:04

I was tired of shooting AMB and doing a lot of Post Op with NN and Ps so I tried using my flash (580 EX II). I wasn't sure about the burst affecting the players so I decided to shot straight up...the ceiling is at least 40 or so feet high...anyway, here are my results!

Magic,

those are terrific images. Mind sharing the flash settings? Did you camera default to the 1/250 shutter speed?

Please share more details on both camera and flash to get such good shots using an on-camera flash.

thanks in advance.

dave

Magic 24

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 15:48

Magic,

those are terrific images. Mind sharing the flash settings? Did you camera default to the 1/250 shutter speed?

Please share more details on both camera and flash to get such good shots using an on-camera flash.

thanks in advance.

dave

First of all, let me say, my (the) gym I shoot in is 6400 ISO at 400 with a 70-200 f2.8 L so using the flash helped a lot. My settings were ISO 2500 at 250 and f2.8

As far as default - don't remember if the camera did it or I but it's a 1D Mk III.

namasste

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 17:18

How do you guys handle long bursts of shots, or do you just shoot one at a time?
Dave, its one and done unless you have the battery packs like northpoint uses. those recycle anywhere from quickly to instantly depending on power setting. Frankly, once you start shooting one at a time, you find you're timing gets better and better and when you go back to shooting good light, its money! Here's another shot as an example of direct flash...like NP, I use three lights, two as high as I can get them in each corner as mains and one on camera as fill. No bouncing, all direct. Set up correctly, one ight kills the shadows produced by the others.

http://www.sephotos.net/img/v6/p927157130-5.jpg

superdiver

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 17:42

great shot,

but to be honest, rarely do I see shots with strobes like you guys are using that I like (you are one of the exceptions) and it seems like a real PITA to set up all the lights and get the approval (regardless whether it actually affects the players or not) when you could just shoot away with the proper lens and settings...

Simon Turkin

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 19:31

Is a direct flash with out strobes in the corners going to give me lots of shadows??
Do I need to bounce??

If so which direction??

namasste

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 20:54

Is a direct flash with out strobes in the corners going to give me lots of shadows??
Do I need to bounce??

If so which direction??
Simon, you aren't going to be able to get the images you are looking for by bouncing one shoe mount flash, they simply aren't powerful enough. Even the image I posted above with three flashes all shot direct (none bounced at all) still had evident ghosting in the hands. Its just the nature of the beast with small lights and HS gyms. Thank heavens I am back at the Wolstein Arena tomorrow night after a three week hiatus since the Vikes were on the road.

bobbyz

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 21:56

great shot,

it seems like a real PITA to set up all the lights and get the approval (regardless whether it actually affects the players or not) when you could just shoot away with the proper lens and settings...

And that proper lens would be?

And I would like to know the settings also. It would make life so much easier, isn't it.

namasste

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 22:15

And that proper lens would be?

And I would like to know the settings also. It would make life so much easier, isn't it.
+1...oh those magic settings and gear, huh? wish I had a dime for each time some parent made a comment related to the gear making the image. this is usually followed by something about just putting the 1D in "sports" mode and lettin er rip. this isn't nearly as tough as it seems. :rolleyes:

superdiver

28th of January 2009 (Wed), 23:00

I use the 85 1.8, have a 40D now, but used an XT and 30D in the past

settings are obviously dependant on the individual gym, even on specific areas in the gym. It varies greatly.

I most the gym I have been in I shoot at either ISO 1600 or 3200, between 1.8 and 2.2 and between 1/400 and 1/800, all depending on the available light where I am standing. If my test shots have not even close WB I do a CWB, but if they are reasonably close I just correct in PP and use noise ninja most of the time.

no magic at all, just practice and trail and error, but I can PP 3-500 pics in about 60-90 minutes, if I take my time. Anyone can spend hours on one picture and never be happy with it. It all comes down to how picky you are. The results I showed amount to about 10 seconds a picture. Its all in the batch processing and recognizing which shots need something different then the "majority" of the shots.

bobbyz

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 08:41

Superdiver, if you getting 1/400 and 1/800 at ISO1600 or even at ISO3200, the light is relatively good IMHO. See how it works when you got to shoot at ISO3200 and you don't get 1/250 even with f1.8 lens. Everyone has same 85mm f1.8 lens, so that's why I didn't get your comment about the proper lens.

For some reason some folks get so much negative about flash photography. Properly done, it can give you very good results. Just look at Scott's shot above. I would love to see clear shots like that using available light only in a dimly lit gym.

Personally I think shooting available light is easier as you don't have to mess with strobes/hot-shoe flashes, remotes and so on. But there must be some reasons that strobes are used at pro events even with their super-duper lighting systems.

namasste

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 09:22

For some reason some folks get so much negative about flash photography.

But there must be some reasons that strobes are used at pro events even with their super-duper lighting systems.

thanks for the compliment bud. these two comments you made are right on the money imho. one may not like flash but it sure beats the alternative many times. heck, I'd even take a poorly flashed image over a noisy, soft image with bad WB which is often the result in HS gyms when not using flash.

also right about the pros. I shoot ambient at the Wolstein Center and get 1/500s/2.8/1250 (pretty good light by most standards) and yet I'd kill to put four or more lights in the catwalks (assuming I had 4 or more worth putting up there). At Quicken Loans, you can get 1/800s/2.8/1000 (and sometimes better depending) and the AP/Getty crew as well as team photog always shoot strobes. All for a reason, they will make for better images. not to say that you can't produce nice ambient stuff as well but given the choice between the two, I'd take strobes anyday if lighting was anything short of amazing.

Simon Turkin

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 09:41

thanks for the compliment bud. these two comments you made are right on the money imho. one may not like flash but it sure beats the alternative many times. heck, I'd even take a poorly flashed image over a noisy, soft image with bad WB which is often the result in HS gyms when not using flash.

also right about the pros. I shoot ambient at the Wolstein Center and get 1/500s/2.8/1250 (pretty good light by most standards) and yet I'd kill to put four or more lights in the catwalks (assuming I had 4 or more worth putting up there). At Quicken Loans, you can get 1/800s/2.8/1000 (and sometimes better depending) and the AP/Getty crew as well as team photog always shoot strobes. All for a reason, they will make for better images. not to say that you can't produce nice ambient stuff as well but given the choice between the two, I'd take strobes anyday if lighting was anything short of amazing.

If im shooting from the base line with a 50mm 1.8 camera shooting vertically with a grip i should have it on the hot shoe full force??

Simon Turkin

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 09:41

flash is a 430 ex II

bobbyz

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 10:01

Simon Turkin

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 10:06

Simon, get the flash off the hot shoe. Look at this setup by Dave Hoffman (gatorboy)

http://blog.davehoffmannphoto.com/2008/12/girls-basketball-with-off-camera-flash/

http://blog.davehoffmannphoto.com/2007/12/follow-the-bouncing-ball/

As of now I only have one flash is it better to use it or not??

Eventually id love to have strobes set up in the corners I just am saving up and doing research now

namasste

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 10:30

As of now I only have one flash is it better to use it or not??

Eventually id love to have strobes set up in the corners I just am saving up and doing research now
Simon, definitely try it out. If you hate the look, go back to ambient. Here's a little tip for direct you can use too...shoot manual (flash and camera) and set your aperture to give you +/- two thirds wiggle room. Expose for the distance of the free throw line. For example, if your max aperture is 2.8, then use 3.5 as a base. Here's why. The exposure is going to come primarily from the flash (assuming you are well under ambient) but as players get really close, you'll tend to get very hot images, the opposite obviously holding true as they move away. If you are in M on the flash and camera, then as the players get close, dial the ap to f4 or more and as they move out past the free throw line, dial it out to 2.8 or 3.2. This helps keep the lighting a little more consistent and can be changed on the fly. Hope thatis useful to you.

Simon Turkin

29th of January 2009 (Thu), 13:09

Simon, definitely try it out. If you hate the look, go back to ambient. Here's a little tip for direct you can use too...shoot manual (flash and camera) and set your aperture to give you +/- two thirds wiggle room. Expose for the distance of the free throw line. For example, if your max aperture is 2.8, then use 3.5 as a base. Here's why. The exposure is going to come primarily from the flash (assuming you are well under ambient) but as players get really close, you'll tend to get very hot images, the opposite obviously holding true as they move away. If you are in M on the flash and camera, then as the players get close, dial the ap to f4 or more and as they move out past the free throw line, dial it out to 2.8 or 3.2. This helps keep the lighting a little more consistent and can be changed on the fly. Hope thatis useful to you.

Sounds like a good tactic thanks alot for the help