Equipment and is it possible to make a living?

[kevinmock]

Here is a question that I'm certain has been asked a hundred times plus. I'm wanting to get into photography and wanting to get paid at doing it. I'm not a professional (which only means being paid) so I should state I'm a novice and not an expert. I recently lost my job that I held for 22 years due to the economy. I'm financially secure but not rich of course. Struggling like most. Here are a few question that I'm hoping I can get answered.

I walked into the camera shop this past weekend and looked at a 40D, 50D and a D1 Mark III. The pricing between the 40 , 50 wasn't that much but the D1 Mark III was a huge difference but I could feel the difference , see the difference and hear the difference with the rapid shots being taken, to me it sounded like a muzzled machine gun :) .

I also looked at the 70-200 2.8 pro series glass with the speed flash that in total with a couple minor extras would have ran me over $7,000 with the D1 Mark III and then just a few thousand if I went the other direction with the 40 or 50 D.

So here are my questions....

1) Can you make a full time living doing photo shots like sporting events and other ? I'm not into the wedding thing.

2) If you were purchasing the 1 of the above 40, 50, D1 Mark III which one would you go for? I'm looking to get into fast action sports or chase down someone famous and hope to sell off the photo for a cool million :) (yea right) but that would be nice.

3) But is there money to be made in this industry? If I were to go with the D1 Mark III what other equipment would you recommend going with it? I have to admit that the body of this camera melted in my hands and it was love at first site. I liked the other 40 and 50 but other then the price there was something remarkable with the D1 Mark III. But if I could get some inside help from someone that has an idea what's going on that would be great. I could use some direction.

Kevin

[SuzyView]

With everything else, it's who you know more than talent, I think right now. To make a real living you have to be employed by one of the newspapers or sports stations. They have their own gear and you sign it out. I bumped into a Washington Post photographer at the A&S Museum for an event and he had a 70-200 2.8 IS on his camera body and everything was taped over, so they don't change the settings on the lens. He didn't know what he was doing with the gear, just settings and shoot. But everything is tagged to belong to the paper.

If you are serious about it, the answer is "yes" the equipment does mean something. But don't spend the money yet. E-mail the teams you want to photograph and see who shoots for them.

[kevinmock]

SuzyView

Thank you for the fast response. I really would like to freelance and own my own equipment. Sports is just one of the few things that I would like to get into but weddings is totally out of the question. No offense to the nice people out there getting married but I'm looking for action and something that keeps me on the move.

[SuzyView]

Have you considered working for a pro for a few months first? There are some really good photography studios around. Have you ever done a freelance business before? It's a lot of work. Are you saying to shoot for high schools or leagues?

[Dan-]

You'd likely make better money collecting unemployment.

[SuzyView]

Let's give the guy a chance to think it through first. :)

[ChrisRabior]

Having the right equipment helps a lot. Limitations on lens aperture, image quality at high ISO, the number of frames per second.. those are all equipment, and can make a huge difference when getting "the shot". Arguably, the 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 5D, etc.they're all VERY capable bodies, and you can certainly get by for sports with them. Just remember, glass is more important than the body. You'll go through bodies, but your glass should last you forever if you take care of it.

Now, even if you have the best equipment, it doesn't matter unless you know how to use it and have an eye for the shot. A Mark III with all the best L glass in the world in the hands of a trained chimp won't necessarily make good images. Practice, practice, practice.

Ok, gear? Talent? CHECK! Sorry to say, there are a lot of extremely talented photographers in the world, many with pockets deep enough to buy the gear you only wish you could afford, and they're not making a lot of money out of this. Why? That part is all on the photographer.

Talent can get you far, but not as far as pure dumb luck, good networking, etc. A good number of people I know shooting for news, college ball, Getty, AP, Reuters, and pro leagues all basically fell into it through some lucky connection. Sometimes it's as simple as bumping into a chief photographer or head media rep or whoever happens to have hiring power or know the one who does at a little league game for your nephew.

Basically, you don't have a choice on where you start: at the bottom. The most you can do is work your way up as high as you can, as fast as you can. Make as many connections as you can, keep tabs on all of them, make sure people know who you are and that your work is something worth spending money on.

In the meantime, youth sports and high school sports are an excellent point to start. Try finding a school or league that isn't already in a contract with another photographer, and work something out.

Sorry to hear about the financial/work situation.. lots of us in the same boat. Good luck with the sports photography.

[kevinmock]

Collecting unemployment isn't my cup of tea and it wouldn't be helping the economy out either. I'm not wealthy but being employed with the same firm for 20 plus years I was able to manage to tuck back a few dollars for a raining day. In this case a storm.

I've loved shooting since I was just a young kid. Of course it wasn't anything expensive I was shooting with but it was fun. Now I'd like to get my hands dirty and if starting out at the bottom is what I have to do then that's what I'd do. After all I've been at the top for a very long time and I got there from working my way up.

I love sports so this was one option I was thinking of. I wasn't sure if you could just take shots and send them in and might get lucky and get paid for doing so?

I just wasn't 100% sure what equipment to purchase. I loved the D1 Mark III but I also heard that the glass was more important but on the other hand when I was shooting the 40-50 D then shot with the D1 Mark III there was a serious major effect in rapid shooting action. Which is what I thought would be important in shooting sports or other fast action subjects.

I'm not looking to get rich but if it's possible to make an income that would be wonderful. Regardless I plan to get into the profession of shooting. I know I'm a rookie, novice whatever it might be called but I've always loved photography and shooting. Of course being a kid growing up and even in my youngest stages of life I couldn't afford the above equipment mentioned. Now being a wiser and older I can afford to take on something new.

I reside in Manhattan and I have met a ton of celebrities eg: the complete crew of Sapranos, Al Pacino, Robert De Nero (Bobby), Sharon Stone, Joe Pucci, everyone on the set of Goodfellows and many others. If I could do something in this field taking shots that would be exciting too. I really enjoy the sports and the entertainment industry.

I didn't just wake up last week thinking about getting into this. It's been a thing of the past that I couldn't due to my fulltime career and now I have the time and opportunity. I just don't know where to start other then of course taking some good classes and trying to find someone to take me under their wing if possible?

Kevin

[SuzyView]

Under the wing is really good. You can learn the business and see what gear works for you without the initial investment. Be a second for a while and see if you can do it for yourself.

[bric-a-brac]

another +1 for getting in with a working pro. a succinct list of good reasons for doing so:

*learn the business end of the photography business. it's not enough to take good photos if you want to make a living. you've also got to know how to market your service, move your product, network, and keep records.

*an established photographer has renown and a clientele base. starting out you may struggle to find jobs on your own, but as part of his/her team your chances of work, building portfolio, and networking increase.

*having one of everything is not enough for a freelancer. You've got to have back ups. working for a pro, you'll (hopefully) have access to all the goods on a borrowing basis while you build up your own inventory at a rate that won't financially destroy you.

[Jeremy Winterberg]

I say, if you can afford it I would get the 1D mark III the 70-200 2.8 lens and also a 40D or 50D for a backup camera. If you cant then get the 50D and a 40D for backup with the 70-200 2.8 lens. having a backup camera is key!

If you're at the game and a baseball goes flying into your camera and breaks it, your screwed if you dont have a spare.

Now, I cant really say much because I'm an extremely low budget photographer, and have "consumer" grade equipment, but I have gotten into discusions with people on other forums about this, and everybody will tell you the same thing.

If you can find a Pro photographer in your area that will take you "under their wing" great! I say do it! But, in most cases you wont find someone because A. they dont want a second photographer. B. they cant afford to pay or train a second photographer. or C. they already have a second photographer.

In my case there are no pros in my area willing to take me under, so I'm going out on a limb and doing the freelance gig and trying to make it on my own.

[MJPhotos24]

As suggested learn the basics and understand that photography as a business becomes 85% back end work and 15% shooting, which leads to many people not enjoying it as much as they thought. It's still a fun job to do if you're shooting what you like of course, but it's a lot of work. However newspapers, magazines, and other sources like that in the country are cutting costs and photographers are losing jobs left and right. They're cutting down on photo usage to not pay freelancers either. It's just a very tough time to get into the field at the higher levels, especially considering there are a LOT of pros out there that are getting into freelancing since losing jobs.

On the same note though there's a lot of different types of photography and I'll say the same thing I always say, YOUTH market is the way to go as that will always be there. Using the local league kids go from 6-12 each year, each year playing for new teams and each year parents wanting those images (T&I does better than action though). After that it's tough, they have a ton of pics by the time they reach school so many stop buying or just lose interest. The youth market is, IMO, the one to start in. Of course after learning how to use the gear in your hands, there's a big difference between being a GWC and a pro photographer - heck, I know some so called pro's I don't consider pros!

Shooting higher level sports like college and pro isn't going to happen right off the bat, not to mention they are so well covered papers are not going to want freelance images from the same game when they already pay for a subscription to Getty, AP, USPW, etc. There's a ton of pros and even small wires who can't get into these games to shoot, as well as smaller wires and freelancers struggling to sell the images if they get in. Big sports are very strict in what you can do with images and getting more strict each year. People want to shoot it for fun to say they did it, not the right reason IMO.

Celebrities you'd be like the paparazzi, is that really something you want to do? It's a lot more work than most think as standard shots of a celeb walking around are not money makers, you have to catch the dirt - pay off people for info, wait a long time for a shot and then maybe get nothing. It's not for everyone, I know I wouldn't do it. Meeting celebs and doing work as a papo are completely different.

Also note that most photogs who go into business for themselves are claiming losses the first year, or few years, because of the cost of equipment. I never worked for a company so for several years it was at a loss even though I was making money, just spending it on gear to not be limited. So getting a job with a working pro as an assistant would help in making money and learning the craft, or possibly shooting for some kind of company (Lifetouch?) that you can learn and shoot some. Though with that you'll be shooting a lot of what you don't like more than likely.

End of ramble

[PhotosGuy]

I really enjoy the sports and the entertainment industry.
Take heart! Even Dwight had to start somewhere! ;)
This is how Dwight McCann Started Concert Photography! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=241704)

Concert Photography Tips: A FAQ Perhaps (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=226809)

Night Club Photography Tips and Techniques (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=432658)

Sections include creds, film, Slow-Sync Flash
Concert, Stage, and Low-Light Photography (http://photo.net/learn/concerts/mirarchi/concer_i) A Tutorial by Steve Mirarchi

Behind the scenes Band shoots (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=604231)

Links to some of my shoots: A few "posters" of bands from the last year. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=631210)

[JimboWHO]

I got a kick out of your post re: the celebs in NY you've met. Can you spell any of their names or movies/TV they've been in :)?

[kevinmock]

JimboWho: you are asking me to spell their names? Did I miss spell one of their names? I met them personally through friends and associates. I've lived in manhattan my entire life. Midtown "Hellskitchens" to be exact.

[jra]

It is possible to make a living at photography but not an easy venture for the vast majority. I've been running my small photog business for about 4 years now and IMO you first must understand the basics....get the technical and artistic part down. After that, it really comes down to personality. It really helps if you are a people person...someone who can start a conversation and quickly gain the trust of those you work or may potentially work with. Being able to make people comfortable in your presence and willing to work with you. I'm not a sports photographer, so that may be a little different, but in the end, it will come down to connections and being able to sell your product.

[kevinmock]

JRA and to all the others Thanks for posting informative information in helping me and please keep them coming. I'm reading all postings and appreciate each of your time spending to help me out.

[Jeremy Winterberg]

Your welcome. Good luck with your ventures to becoming Americas Next Top Mode... errmm Photographer!

[breal101]

Living in NYC would be a blessing and a curse, on one hand the opportunities for finding a photographer to show you the ropes is boundless on the other there are many more people in competition for that opportunity. Backups and special lens needs are just a phone call away there, I wouldn't buy a backup camera for that reason alone. It is a tough business to break into but it's worth a shot. Some photographers start out in NYC doing head shots for aspiring actors and models, i.e. wait staff and busboys. Just be glad you aren't competing in their line of work. NY has a very active chapter of ASMP, you can join as an associate member for not a lot of money. It is a great place to network and find answers to your questions that reflect the market in real time.

[Alleh]

Statistically speaking you probably wont make even close to enough money to cover your expenses. Plenty of people think the extra money they make on the weekends and what not is just a bonus above and beyond their day job but in reality they are losing money from a business stand point.

From the obvious lack of knowledge about the photographic business that you seem to have you will probably just lose money.

If you do decide to try it anyway don't forget just like any other business you want to be successful write a business plan and a marketing plan.

[Jeremy Winterberg]

If you do decide to try it anyway don't forget just like any other business you want to be successful write a business plan and a marketing plan.

Yep, smart advice right there. I'm currently working on my Biz. Plan for my studio I'm trying to start up.

[docgipe]

I wish to thank all posters in this thread. As a newbee...I felt like I was somewhere close to Heaven cause 'ya all seemed like shutter angels. For once the good stuff as a matter of fact surfaced without mumbo jumbo to confuse the original line of questions.

[SPORTshot]

Sorry that you lost your job Kevin.....20 years is a lot of time in one place. I'm in the same boat as you, I'm looking to start up a business as well. Fortunately I still have a job but I hate what I'm doing and I want to find a way out, and I'm hoping sports photography can be my "OUT" lol. With me being a noob though, I can't quit my job anytime soon....unfortunately.

I think the 50D is going to be an excellent sports camera and that is what I've decided to get along with the 70-200 2.8L for starters....my budget seems to be much tighter than yours though. Anyways, look forward to seeing how your new career unfolds and the best of luck !

[Iversonperspective]

What i want to do when i get older is sell landscape and abstract pictures. I currently have a little experience in framing pictures like drymounting, getting it in frame and putting dust cover paper over the back and everything, but i'm always worried about there not being much money in it. Am i wrong about this? And i was also thinking about moving to St. Paul, Minnesota to go to college up there and start the business up there.

[DDCSD]

What i want to do when i get older is sell landscape and abstract pictures. I currently have a little experience in framing pictures like drymounting, getting it in frame and putting dust cover paper over the back and everything, but i'm always worried about there not being much money in it. Am i wrong about this? And i was also thinking about moving to St. Paul, Minnesota to go to college up there and start the business up there.


Welcome to POTN!!!

I honestly think you'd be better of sticking around Sioux Falls. I'm finding that being in a smaller market has advantages. You only need to be better than a hundred or so other photographers around here, where you'd need to be better than a few thousand photographers in the Twin Cities. If you can find a way to stick out in SF, you can make a decent living. Quite frankly, I'm not all that impressed with what I've seen in SF. There are some good photographers, but there are some really bad ones too. The really bad ones are able to make some money because people don't know any better there.

To be honest, there isn't much of a market for landscape and abstract photos. It would be very tough to make a living doing that.

I live in Madison, SD. Its nice to see someone from SD on here. there isn't very many of us on here.

[Iversonperspective]

That's the thing. That's why i was thinking about moving to the twin cities because i don't know how much of a living i could make here in Sioux Falls because we're not a very artsy city. I guess i would be maybe one of the few since most people in town know of candace ann and evans, people who do senior portraits/weddings. Great to see people from SD.

[Gordeez]

I got a kick out of your post re: the celebs in NY you've met. Can you spell any of their names or movies/TV they've been in :)?
Are you serious?
Scarface...Heat...Casino...Righteous kill...88 Minutes..Raging Bull (Classic) The Godfather sequels...lol

[zagiace]

No offense to the nice people out there getting married but I'm looking for action and something that keeps me on the move.
Haha, pretty much describes wedding photography. There a ton of work.

[Iversonperspective]

My teacher at school carries 2-3 cameras with him on a wedding. Personally, i like to take my time and get it just right so i don't know how much i would like doing weddings. I would probably miss the kiss haha.

[Goos]

edit: wrong topic :<

[LW Dail]

I'm glad to see others in the same boat. I've just been 'let go' as well. Unfortunately, about four years shy of my fully funded FO account!

I'm pondering the same things but headed towards opening a gallery/shop and displaying lots of photogs/artists.