top pro's shoot in P mode

[vpnd]

Does anyone shoot in P mode? Where do you if you do.

[FlyingPhotog]

"P" = Pro Mode...

Everyone knows that! ;)

[Sean]

Are you making a statement, or is this a question?

[Dave 1942]

I shoot 95% in Av (Aperature Priority) and 5% in Manual mode..

Dave

[vpnd]

My statement is... Joe Buissink shoots primarily in P mode at 1600 ISO when not using flash. I tried and was happily surprised that my keeper rate went up for everyday shooting and wildlife. Obviously with flash and studio shots it won't work. What do people think?

[FlyingPhotog]

If you're shooting in "average" stituations then average camera-induced exposure will work.

Me? I don't spend much time shooting average scenes so P won't get it right.

[Double Negative]

What do people think?

About P mode? I don't. ;)

Seriously though, it's a good mode and useful enough sometimes. But quite honestly, I can't remember the last time I used it. Never on the 1D2N obviously. Perhaps rarely on the D30. Before that, on the A-1 - if anything.

I shoot either aperture priority (Av) or manual (M).

[ssracer]

I shot in P a lot when I first got the camera. Now it's usually Av with some M and a little Tv

[Perry Ge]

I dunno about P mode, but Leibowitz certainly doesn't mind using a CRAPPY lens!

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/03/on-the-cover200903?mbid=hp_obama_otc

[Jakew810]

P mode is ok, but I only use it %5 of the time. Mostly I shoot in Full Manual mode.

[Jeff]

I dunno about P mode, but Leibowitz certainly doesn't mind using a CRAPPY lens!



http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/03/on-the-cover200903?mbid=hp_obama_otc


The other one around her neck has a red ring on it though.

[sandpiper]

Never used P more than a handful of times, generally when taking family snaps with a flashgun.

The rest of the time I want to know what settings I am using or I don't know what the result will look like. I use primarily Av when wanting to control DoF, M when in either consistant lighting or tricky conditions, Tv when wanting to control motion blur (for example propellor blur on WW2 warbirds, motorsports etc.) or freeze action.

Most of the time I will have specific settings in mind for aperture and / or shutter speed, in order to produce the look I am after in the result. With P mode, I am leaving the camera to decide on how much motion blur, DoF etc., will appear in the image, so the camera is taking over the creative decisions which I want to make myself.

[400dabuser]

Do sometimes, just to experiment with it, comes out ok. Thought most pros use Av?

[sandpiper]

Thought most pros use Av?

I would think that most pros will use whichever mode is best at the time, for what they are attempting to achieve. Av, M, Tv, all have their uses in different ways, the key is to use the right one for the job in hand.

Using only Av, or only Tv, has it's limitations depending on what factors are most important for the shot.

Using only M is a bit different of course, as you are setting everything yourself so doesn't matter so much depending on subject. However, when in rapidly changing light conditions it may be preferable to allow the camera to adjust one parameter (the least important one to the shot) automatically. That is very much down to personal choice however, there is nothing wrong with using M exclusively.

[Double Negative]

^ Exactly. There's no one "right" mode. Totally depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

[rdenney]

If you read the manual, you'll discover that P mode just applies a series of rules. Folks sometimes forget that in P mode, you can follow the reciprocity table up and down to select different combinations of shutter speed and aperture that produce the same exposure. For many situations, those rules are completely adequate and consistent with what I would do anyway.

For walking around in daylight, I frequently use P mode. But I look to see what combination the camera chooses for those situations when I might need, say, additional depth of field or a faster shutter speed. Often, daylight is bright enough to make it a moot point--the shutter speed and aperture are both adequate. But I'm happy to switch over to Av or M at need to get what I want, or just spin the thumbwheel to get a better combination of shutter speed and aperture.

In my experience, the metering mode (evaluative, averaging, spot, etc.) has a bigger effect on the result than does the exposure mode.

I actually prefer the way the Pentax 645 handles this. My 645N has a shutter speed dial and an aperture dial, just like on cameras of old. Each dial has an "A" for automatic. Put the aperture dial on A, and you have shutter priority automation. Put the shutter dial on A, and you have aperture priority. Put both on A and you have program mode. Put neither on A and you have manual operation. I love it.

Rick "who often gets spotty results with evaluative metering" Denney

[nphsbuckeye]

I can't even remember when I shot in Av...

[Double Negative]

^ Linked controls are kind of cool too; like early Hassies for example. They work based on EVs. Change the aperture and the shutter speed adjusts automatically, unless you hold down the control.

[cdifoto]

My statement is... Joe Buissink shoots primarily in P mode at 1600 ISO when not using flash. I tried and was happily surprised that my keeper rate went up for everyday shooting and wildlife. Obviously with flash and studio shots it won't work. What do people think?
I think that's interesting. P mode never seems to work for me. Although M screws up a lot too. ;) :D

[Perry Ge]

Use whatever suits you - M is 100% the way to go for me. I have P mode disabled on my 1DIII, and I can't remember the last time I left M.

*Flashes gang sign*

[nphsbuckeye]

Word.

[Double Negative]

Use whatever suits you - M is 100% the way to go for me. I have P mode disabled on my 1DIII, and I can't remember the last time I left M.

*Flashes gang sign*

Word up.

Shows how much I use "P" mode... The 1D series has it? LOL. Never noticed.

[cdifoto]

I don't have any of the modes disabled. I fear that the day I disabled them would be the same day I have a total brain fart or lose my thumb and need to rely on automation.

[rdenney]

Shows how much I use "P" mode... The 1D series has it? LOL. Never noticed.

Pardon me for picking on you--others have said much the same thing--, but this sounds a little like bragging. As one who has spent hours and hours pointing a Pentax or Minolta Spotmeter at subjects, I've gotten to the point where I use the most automation I can that gets the job done. That leaves me free to concentrate on other aspects.

I guess now I'm the one bragging, heh, heh.

I used to chimp, too, to check those exposures. In those days, chimping was called "Polaroid".

Rick "wondering if evaluative metering follows the Zone System, heh, heh" Denney

[JeffreyG]

I think that a lot of people who have shot for a while and are used to knowing how they want to approach an exposure simply find that using M mode is the quickest and simplest way to get there and to preserve those settings for multiple shots.

For some reason, attempts to explain how this workflow is better and faster for those of us that do it must come across as bragadoccio to people who prefer using the auto metered modes most of the time. Otherwise the idea of a thread asking if any 'pro' would stoop to using an auto metered mode is pointless.

I used to use Av mode most of the time. I really started paying attention to what the camera was doing and when I needed to fix exposure in post processing I looked hard to figure out why the camera missed. This led me to a realization that (for me) M mode is no slower to use than the auto metered modes and I can usually get more accurate exposures (meaning ones I do not need to adjust as far in post processing) that way.

[Croasdail]

I dunno about P mode, but Leibowitz certainly doesn't mind using a CRAPPY lens!

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/03/on-the-cover200903?mbid=hp_obama_otc

OMG, no, say it isn't so. If it gets out you don't need a pretty little red ring on your lens to get a good photo, what will happen next! People will start saying you don't need a 1 series either..... holy crap.... this could be the end of photography as we know it!!!

I'll bet her pictures suck. You will be able to tell by looking at the exif information.

To the topic - I never have used the little green box unless it was by accident. As to using M, I do use it, particularly at indoor events. But generally I don't find it more reliable then picking the right metering method and dialing in the right exposure compensation when using aperture preferred. But there really is nothing wrong using P mode given the right situation like snap shots from your kids party or something like that. And honestly, many of the shots I have seen where people got to great lengths to dial in there exposure manually really aren't that much better then a good P/S would have done. The advanced modes are really for handling light conditions that are unique in one way or another. P will give you a good reference starting point.

[vpnd]

About P mode? I don't. ;)

I can't remember the last time I used it. Never on the 1D2N obviously.

I shoot either aperture priority (Av) or manual (M).
I use it sometimes with my 1dsmk2....obviously;)

[vpnd]

The reason for this thread is... Joe Bussink was on tour for the last 3 shows for Christina Aguilara, ( now before the stupid comments on her... she paid him 20,000 a night for 4 nights, 1000 for an album 1each for all including roadies = 80 albums.....for 4 nights.) anyway he showed a slideshow where he shot everything for 4 nights in P at ISO 1600 he showed them straight outa the camera and they rocked. after that I tried it and was surprised how well the camera did. You still have to set ev just like you big shooters in AV, so why is P so much less of a setting...............ego's boys

[rigshots]

My Leica M4-P doean't have "P" mode.

Hold on, it doesn't even have a meter!

JJ

[Spacemunkie]

Neither does my Lubitel :D

[JeffreyG]

The reason for this thread is... Joe Bussink was on tour for the last 3 shows for Christina Aguilara, ( now before the stupid comments on her... she paid him 20,000 a night for 4 nights, 1000 for an album 1each for all including roadies = 80 albums.....for 4 nights.) anyway he showed a slideshow where he shot everything for 4 nights in P at ISO 1600 he showed them straight outa the camera and they rocked. after that I tried it and was surprised how well the camera did. You still have to set ev just like you big shooters in AV, so why is P so much less of a setting...............ego's boys

This post is somewhat puzzling.

For one thing, it seems to me a stage show with very differing lighting from moment to moment is one of those situations that most people (even those of us that typically use M mode) would agree is a perfect example of a time to prefer an auto metered mode like Av, Tv and P.

Secondarily, I've never seen people positing that there is much of a difference between Av, Tv and P for functionality. They are all auto metered and they will all yield the same exposure when used with the same EC. IMO P is scarcely different....the camera starts with some suggested aperture and shutter and you can vary the ratio by spinning the main dial. This is not really any different than shooting in Av mode.

Where are these 'P mode is worse than Av or Tv mode' snobs of whom you speak? And why are you surprised that P would yield any different result that Av if you spin the dial to the same aperture? It gives the same settings!

[harroz]

neither does my Penguin ;-)

It all depends on what you shoot, you work in studio it's the last thing you need, you shooting a cow in a paddock and you might use P, On my canons i use it, BUT, I use all of them accept Tv, I haven't used that in years, but i would if the time came for me to use it. There is a place and time for everything, they're there to help in certain situations so why not use them.

On P you can over and underexpose as well, it's actually a pretty good way to shoot fast.

[tim]

I use P mode 1% of the time, only when things are happening too fast for me to keep up with, which is rare. Av and manual the rest of the time.

[Double Negative]

Pardon me for picking on you--others have said much the same thing--, but this sounds a little like bragging. As one who has spent hours and hours pointing a Pentax or Minolta Spotmeter at subjects, I've gotten to the point where I use the most automation I can that gets the job done. That leaves me free to concentrate on other aspects.

I guess now I'm the one bragging, heh, heh.

Nah, no bragging. To be honest, I'm too lazy for M most of the time and use Av more than anything else, film or digital. I also use EC if it's available as well as AEL. :)

Most of the time I don't care what the shutter speed is, as long as it's not too low to handhold. What I do care about is the aperture.

I use it sometimes with my 1dsmk2....obviously;)

I realized the error of my ways in the follow up post... Again, it clearly illustrates how much I use P mode. :p

[vpnd]

This post is somewhat puzzling.

For one thing, it seems to me a stage show with very differing lighting from moment to moment is one of those situations that most people (even those of us that typically use M mode) would agree is a perfect example of a time to prefer an auto metered mode like Av, Tv and P.

Secondarily, I've never seen people positing that there is much of a difference between Av, Tv and P for functionality. They are all auto metered and they will all yield the same exposure when used with the same EC. IMO P is scarcely different....the camera starts with some suggested aperture and shutter and you can vary the ratio by spinning the main dial. This is not really any different than shooting in Av mode.

Where are these 'P mode is worse than Av or Tv mode' snobs of whom you speak? And why are you surprised that P would yield any different result that Av if you spin the dial to the same aperture? It gives the same settings!
first of all, I think I have a wild hair up my A$%, for posting this inflamatory thread. I have always been a little bit amused by the people(not snobs) who say they only shoot in manual or AV,

I must have had low blood sugar or something. I was equally surprised that he (JOE B) only shoots in P when no flash is involved. Jeffrey, The shots were onstage, backstage, standing with roadies, dressing room.... all shots from 4 days straight.

And the dude with a ton of L's that I kindof ripped for saying "with the 1d2n-never obviously"................ It just struck me funny with the
"obviously" part.


Again I usually shot only in AV, TV or Manual, but now I'm going to shoot a little in P as well.

[sandpiper]

anyway he showed a slideshow where he shot everything for 4 nights in P at ISO 1600 he showed them straight outa the camera and they rocked. after that I tried it and was surprised how well the camera did. You still have to set ev just like you big shooters in AV, so why is P so much less of a setting...............ego's boys

With low light concert photography, P would almost certainly default to shooting wide open and trying to give you as much shutter speed as possible, maybe stopping down slightly if light improves past the point where it will decide shutter speeds are 'safe'. In this case it would be essentially the same as using Av, set wide open, and should give equally good results.

The problem (for me) with P mode is when light levels are more normal, with ISO in the 100 region giving a 'P' setting of maybe f/8 at 1/400th on a sunny afternoon. There is nothing 'wrong' with this setting, it will give you good results (assuming that nothing is throwing the metering off, like a white building in the sunlight).

What it won't do, is give you creative results. I can't readily think of a situation where I would be looking to use those settings. I might want to use a shallow DoF to lift my subject from the background (f/2.8 @ 1/3200th), or a deep DoF to get my foreground interest sharp in a landscape (f/16 @ 1/100th). In both cases I would either use manual or, if in changing light conditions, Av set to the appropriate aperture. I might decide that I want to lift my subject out of the background, but f/2.8 won't be enough to keep sufficient of the subject in the DoF, so change my aperture to f/4 or f/5.6 (with appropriate changes to shutter speed if in M).

The point is, I am using a specific aperture to control my DoF and taking whatever shutter speed is appropriate, if it doesn't impact on the shot. The 'P' mode choice of f/8 would be unsuitable in any of these situations, neither wide enough to blur the background well, nor small enough to give deep DoF.

Likewise, if I am photographing high speed action, I might want a high shutter speed to freeze the action or a slow one to blur the background with panning. In the former case, the 'P' mode's choice of 1/400th wouldn't be fast enough, in the latter it wouldn't be slow enough. In both these cases I would use M or Tv to set the precise shutter speed I want for the effect.

In the case of WW2 warbirds, for example, I would want to use a very precise shutter speed - slow enough to blur the propellor as much as possible, but not so slow that I get camera shake. This shutter speed will be chosen according to the plane speed, angle and distance. 1/250th for a bit more shake reduction with spitfires doing low, fast, runs and 1/200th or 1/160th as speeds drop, planes are a bit further away etc. 'P' mode choosing 1/400th would not give me pleasing results as the propellors would be too frozen in place.

'P' mode will always try to give a middling aperture and shutter speed, to try and cover all eventualities. It doesn't know if you need a fast or slow shutter speed, or a wide or small aperture for the shot you are taking. Therefore, it goes for safe middle ground using average settings, which will give an average image. To my mind it is fine for snapshots, where I simply want a record of a family party for example, but not usually suitable for when I want to create good images as I don't want the camera to be making all the creative decisions.

It's a little better than green box mode, but still leaves too much under the camera's control, rather than the photographer's.

[vpnd]

Sandpiper, I make my living shooting images. I agree with most of what you said. I like the look of props at 1 320th:D

[RyanQ]

90%Av 10% Tv

[sandpiper]

..the camera starts with some suggested aperture and shutter and you can vary the ratio by spinning the main dial. This is not really any different than shooting in Av mode.

Where are these 'P mode is worse than Av or Tv mode' snobs of whom you speak? And why are you surprised that P would yield any different result that Av if you spin the dial to the same aperture? It gives the same settings!


Ahh, this shows how much I have used P mode, the first camera I had that had 'p' mode didn't have that ability. It gave settings and that was what you got.

OK, 'P' is a bit better than I presumed. However, I would still prefer to set a specific aperture or shutter speed in Av or Tv. With 'P' there is still the likelihood that if the light changes it will adjust both aperture and shutter speed, rather than just the one, which still drops me off my chosen setting.

So, better than I presumed in my previous post, but still not good enough to tempt me away from sticking to Av or Tv for semi-auto modes.

[nphsbuckeye]

As proved in this thread, auto modes can be used correctly for very good images. However, what mode one shoots in is a better indicator of how good a photographer is than gear. Many people here have spent thousands of dollars on top shelf equipment and whose talent/skill is no where near it; it's that person's money, so s/he can do what she pleases, but solely having a large wad of cash says diddly of skill.

And, I shoot in M so I can completely control the image.

[rdenney]

OK, 'P' is a bit better than I presumed. However, I would still prefer to set a specific aperture or shutter speed in Av or Tv. With 'P' there is still the likelihood that if the light changes it will adjust both aperture and shutter speed, rather than just the one, which still drops me off my chosen setting.

Yes, that does happen.

In your example of f/8 at 1/400, for many images that would be just fine with me.

When I have a need for a particular aperture or shutter speed, I do, of course, use the appropriate mode. That's why they're there. But that f/8 aperture is probably near the lens's sweet spot, and if I have no need for great depth of field, then that's where I would put it even in Av mode.

Again, P just follows a set of rules. If the rules are reasonable for the conditions, then I lose no bonus points for letting the camera follow them.

Your point is that we should do things on purpose, and with that I absolutely agree.

Rick "do not break the rules before learning them" Denney

[JeffreyG]

Perhaps a lot of people who disdain P mode are unaware that you can still select the aperture and shutter, P just locks them into a reciprocal relationship based on the meter.

I think for people shooting in an auto metered mode, P appeals to those who are going to look at the aperture and shutter speed in the VF for every shot. P makes it real quick and dirty to tweak the settings via the main wheel for such a shooter shot to shot.

Av appeals more to someone who is shooting in an auto metered mode and who wants to pick an aperture and just have a shutter speed that is within some acceptable band. It's the mode to use when you want to set up the camera and then take a string of shots without checking the VF for data every time.

As I said, if the light is constant I think M mode beat both for the Ron Popeil factor (set it and forget it) but the other two are very good for variable lighting situations such as stage lights or indoors with a few lamps at varied distances from subjects.

[Jeff]

I've always wondered for those that say they shoot 100% M if they also shift through the gear sequence in an automatic transmission car? ;) That seems to be the equivalent to me. I know there are times when Gear 1 is needed, or Gear 2, but those are rare, for me anyway. You may even eek out some more performance of the car by doing it. But, I drive in "D" and let technology do the work of shifting for me.

Likewise with shooting. I let the camera do the work for me and shift into Av, Tv, or M if there's a scene or idea I want to capture and the camera can't read my mind.

I don't mean to tick anyone off that shoots exclusively M but it seems like you're doing a lot more work than necessary.

[JeffreyG]

I've always wondered for those that say they shoot 100% M if they also shift through the gear sequence in an automatic transmission car? ;) That seems to be the equivalent to me. I know there are times when Gear 1 is needed, or Gear 2, but those are rare, for me anyway. You may even eek out some more performance of the car by doing it. But, I drive in "D" and let technology do the work of shifting for me.

Likewise with shooting. I let the camera do the work for me and shift into Av, Tv, or M if there's a scene or idea I want to capture and the camera can't read my mind.

I don't mean to tick anyone off that shoots exclusively M but it seems like you're doing a lot more work than necessary.

Don't take this as argumentative, but I can explain why I have gravitated to using M mode. I used to shoot mostly in Av. I posted this in another thread, but it fits here too:

Suppose I was going into a gym to shoot a sporting event. In Av I need to pick my settings and then hold the camera up and meter a bit to dial them in. I'll probably take a few shots to chimp and set EC. Even then, dark or light backgrounds can easily fool the meter and give me a bad exposure, and at ISO3200 I have little ability to fix in post and save the shot.

So now I do this, I walk in and check this meter shown below. In about 10 seconds I have read the dial (A), set it to the wheel (B), set ISO3200 (C) and checked my options (D). From that I can see immediately that I can use my 70-200/2.8 at ISO3200, f/2.8 and 1/500 or I can use my 135L at ISO1600, f/2 and 1/500.

Also, once I dial those in to my camera I know every shot will be exposed the same (and correctly) and I don't need to chimp or worry about the brightness of the background.

For me, this is faster and easier and gives me more consistent and accurate results. Keeping with this thread, this would not work for a concert as I cannot get the meter on stage, and the lights would probably change all the time even if I could.

[spkerer]

What I can't understand is somebody saying they'll shoot mostly in Tv and/or Av, but wouldn't use P mode. In all those cases, you're relying on the camera to meter the exposure. If you understand that P mode makes it trivial to set the aperture or shutter speed that you want, I don't see why you would shun P mode if you still like Tv and/or Av. I'm not saying P mode eliminates the need or usefulness of Tv and Av modes, but that for a non-trivial number of situations P may be as good or even a better option than Tv/Av.

[eyelookok2blindgurls]

:pI never use P mode !!! does that mean I'm not a PRO ??????:p

[tonylong]

Heh! I just noticed something in the title of the thread that had missed me, and may give some of you a chuckle.

You know how some people start a thread with some assertion in order to start a discussion or debate, and sometimes they come across a bit argumentative right off the bat? Kinda like someone titling a thread "Canon sucks, Nikon rules!"?

Well, when I saw the title of the thread, then read over the various responses, I wasn't surprised to see many defending M, Av, or Tv against P. I mean, after all, the thread was certainly an assertion arguing that "Top Pros Shoot in P", as if the rest of us with our lesser skill must resort to crutches like M or Av.

So, I just happened to revisit this thread, and noticed to my humor that the title and subject for this thread is actually the fact that one top pro decided to do a shoot in P, apparently with decent results.

Amazing how noticing that apostrophe changed the understanding of the whole meaning of the title and intent of the thread:)!

[MJPhotos24]

M most the time, AV when the light is changing...

[Agnu]

I can honestly say that in 4 years of Photography with 3 of those being semi-pro I have never once used anything other than 100% manual 'mode' on my cameras. I started out on an FM2n without a working lightmetre, and then moved into MF with a Bronica SQ-Ai without a light metre - so I learnt to be completely self-dependant in terms of exposure, and to be honest I don't trust my camera to make my decisions for me. I don't trust LCDs particularly well (I do use them to see my shadow/light ratios but don't expect them to be too acurate) and I guess i've just never learnt to rely on a camera. In all this time I only just got a 5D which I may trust, but that will have to be seen. I feel out of control unless I know that i'm using Manual mode, and the bugger ups are mine to bear, just as the good shots are my all my doing. Makes me feel more proud of a good photo, you know?

With that being said I have nothing against those who use 'P' or 'Av' modes etc., and I think I may try out 'Av' mode one day on a walkabout where I have to shoot at ISO 1600+ to see if I may be able to get more spot-on exposures to work with (more acurate exposure = less noise). We'll see, but for now i'm still as suss of in-camera light metres as I was 4 years ago :).

[rdenney]

I don't trust LCDs particularly well (I do use them to see my shadow/light ratios but don't expect them to be too acurate) and I guess i've just never learnt to rely on a camera.

I don't trust the LCD either. I do trust the histogram.

But if you are using the camera's meter, then you are still relying on the camera. If you are using an external meter, then you'll have a reason for doing that but it won't be practical in many situations. I also use external meters for various purposes, and I have a bunch of them (Pentax Spotmeter, Minolta Spot F, Sekonic L-718, Gossen Luna Pro, and even a Vivitar 43). But if I'm going to use the meter in the camera, then the only remaining choice is which combination of aperture and shutter speed add up to the measured exposure value.

For that determination, P uses one set of rules, Av uses a different set of rules, and Tv uses still a different set of rules. Even Manual is just a matter of us choosing an aperture and wiggling the shutter speed control until the pointer centers (same result as Av), or choosing a shutter speed and wiggling the aperture control until the pointer centers (same result as Tv). That's the only choice if we trust the meter in the camera. All of these will result in exactly the same exposure. The reason we use different modes is because in any given situation, one set of rules is more appropriate than another and we'll want more control over the aperture or shutter choice.

But it won't affect the exposure, so the choice of P, Av, Tv, or M (with pointer centered) really is not related to whether we trust the LCD.

Thus, I see little reason to use M for general work, unless I'm using an external meter. (Or unless I'm using a flash, or building a panorama, or other special situations.)

Now, if we DON'T trust the meter, then can use an external meter, or we can check the result by chimping the histogram. But with the latter, we can still adjust how the camera responds to the meter using exposure compensation.

To summarize:

Times when Manual is really useful:

1. When the light is weird and I want the same aperture or shutter speed for every shot even though each image might meter differently. For example, if I move in and meter on a face (or on my hand), then that's the exposure I'll want to use for people shots even if the scene includes varying amounts of snow or sand that would skew the meter reading.

2. When I need the same image density in every shot. Stitching panoramas is a good example here.

3. When using an E-TTL flash, and I don't want the camera dragging the shutter for me.

4. When using studio lights.

Times when Av is really useful:

1. When I want creative control over the depth of field, either less of it (for selective focus) or more of it (for depth of field). For some folks, this may be most of the time.

2. When I want to nail the lens down to its optimal aperture.

Times when Tv is really useful:

1. When the opening time is important, such as for scientific work. I once was able to measure the refresh frequency of an LCD array for a freeway sign using my 10D, by using a 1/10-second shutter speed and dragging the camera past the array quickly so that I could count the ghost images from each refresh. Made a good substitute for an oscilloscope.

2. When i purposely want a slow shutter speed, to allow subject motion in the image.

Times when P is really useful:

1. When none of the above is true, even though I can still get the aperture I want using the main dial.

Times when none of these work:

1. When I don't trust the meter. In those occasions, one must adjust the camera to do something different than what the meter says. That can be as easy as seeing that the histogram is showing a stop underexposed, and adjusting the compensation by a stop. That is VERY fast, and it works in any of the automatic modes. It's no different than using M and causing the meter to point to one side of the center of the scale. In fact, it's the same bleeding scale.

2. If I'm NOT going to chimp, and I don't trust the meter. Then, using an external meter and M is the only choice. Is this more convenient than chimping the histogram? Really? Maybe in consistent light.

Rick "who doesn't blame P (or anything else) for metering mistakes" Denney

[Sasit]

P has its benefits but I just don't use them much.

Because I set to focus by * botton (a hugh benefit doing that), it slows me down somehow when I want have my camera stand-by and ready for any immediate shot. SO when I want be quick I just skip P mode and move to the green box which everything including focusing come back to camera default.

If I do not set to focus on * botton, I might have use P mode rather than the green box for that purpose. But that never happen.

[yogestee]

I dunno about P mode, but Leibowitz certainly doesn't mind using a CRAPPY lens!

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/03/on-the-cover200903?mbid=hp_obama_otc

Why is it a crappy lens?? She's probably made more money shooting with that lens than the value of all your gear put together :lol:

Yes,,gear snobbery gets under my skin..

[Agnu]

I don't trust the LCD either. I do trust the histogram.

But if you are using the camera's meter, then you are still relying on the camera.

My point exactly - I don't trust the in camera light meter most of the time and I use an external meter when possible. All other times I very loosely notice the LCD (presuming it's not going to be off by more than a couple of stops either way) and most importantly the histogram. Still, coming from film I still haven't gotten my head around a histogram perfectly just yet. I never pay much attention to the in-camera light meter though because the camera usually has no conception of the shot that I want to take. My perfect exposure is usually 1-2 stops under the light meters perfect exposure. Maybe it's just personal taste, but I like my images to be generally contrasty and shadow-filled and the light meter tends to enjoy blowing highlights to compensate for boring light shadows. True blacks are the fundamental of well contrasted B&W photography, after all. It can tell me what is conventional norm, but i'm anything but conventional :). This is why I still trust my dodgy old 'no brand' light meter that I picked up for $20 3 years ago...it hasn't failed me yet, through Digi, MF or 35mm :).

[sandpiper]

What I can't understand is somebody saying they'll shoot mostly in Tv and/or Av, but wouldn't use P mode. In all those cases, you're relying on the camera to meter the exposure. If you understand that P mode makes it trivial to set the aperture or shutter speed that you want, I don't see why you would shun P mode if you still like Tv and/or Av. I'm not saying P mode eliminates the need or usefulness of Tv and Av modes, but that for a non-trivial number of situations P may be as good or even a better option than Tv/Av.

Because, it isn't trivial to set the aperture or shutter speed I want.

In many situations I shoot in, light conditions are very variable and can quickly move a couple of stops between shots. In those conditions I want to keep the important parameter on target, P mode can, and will, change it and I don't want to be constantly twiddling the dial trying to keep my aperture at f/4 or my shutter speed at 1/160th when even a third of a stop out can affect the result I am after.

If you aren't concerned about how much prop blur you get on the aircraft, that's fine, set P and aim for a faster shutter speed (as a passing cloud will drop your shutter speed and you don't want camera shake). I am after as much prop blur as I can get because, to me, that looks better. Therefore I want my shutter speed locked down to as slow as I can go without coming home with a card full of shaky images that I can't use (many of the ones at 1/160th are too soft with camera shake, but the ones that aren't look better than at a faster shutter speed). I am pushing the edge of the envelope and don't need the camera moving the edge for me.

'P' mode is fine when you aren't trying for a particular effect or DoF, but doesn't work when you need a specific setting.

I view 'P' mode the same way as AI focus, OK for everyday shooting if you don't worry about your settings too much. I never use AI focus either.

I am not criticising anybody for using 'P' mode, use whatever gets you the results you want the easiest way. It just doesn't work for me.

[bric-a-brac]

I use P with an on camera flash with TTL for general walk around stuff.

SOMEBODY has to explain to me the method/success rate for using M with an on camera flash, because (hypothetically) laws of physics say you would have to be re-metering on every shot unless the distance from light source to subject is always the same. since it's on the camera and you're walking around, light would be traveling variable distance, and require constant aperture changes for correct exposure. Using P is more like the old guide number method: shutter stays at flash sync, distance to subject determines aperture (now calculated in camera with focusing distance information from the lens being communicated to the body and flash).

I'm not saying using M with a speedlight is wrong, and I'll do it for special interest shots. But as a general use setting for, say, a wedding reception where the subject distance is always variable, I don't get how it's working for people.

[René Damkot]

The 1D series has it? LOL. Never noticed.

Actually, the 1D series have a very usable P mode, since you can set a PFn to retain program shift.

This means that P mode can be quite a bit more useful then Av in some cases.

Only case when I absolutely won't use P mode is when using flash.

[M5Man]

I shoot 98% in Av (Aperature Priority)

[cdifoto]

I love how attached people get to their shooting modes. The way they defend 'em, you'd think someone called their baby ugly. :D

[vpnd]

tonylong, I believe Denis Reggie was standing in the back agreeing with him about P.... No this wasn't a dream, It was at Imaging USA and at the Explorers of light Booth. The actual point of this thread is to find out about my hunch that lots of people on this thread with nice cameras and experience think P mode is for suckers and newbs. It is just another auto mode to get good results.
After I thought about it a while, now that I have replaced my 70 -200 with an IS version, I will shoot P much more while outside with no flash for paying jobs. Unless I am shooting wide open with my 85L. I can count on P to keep everything sharp and lets face it moms just really don't know or care about bokeh.....most of the time. They just want a decent exposure and the expression of the child is 95% of the shot.

[vpnd]

I love how attached people get to their shooting modes. The way they defend 'em, you'd think someone called their baby ugly. :D
amen

[airfrogusmc]

I dunno about P mode, but Leibowitz certainly doesn't mind using a CRAPPY lens!

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/03/on-the-cover200903?mbid=hp_obama_otc

Maybe for fast candids but doesn't she shoot most of her studio and location/environmental portraits on an RB?

[AxxisPhoto]

I was surprised as well. My buddy who is a really good photographer uses a 1Ds MkII always in P mode and the image always look incredible.
I'm going to have to try this!

[cgatto]

I shoot almost always in Av. But I'm certainly not a pro :)
It just seems to be what works for me

[TheHoff]

I was surprised as well. My buddy who is a really good photographer uses a 1Ds MkII always in P mode and the image always look incredible.
I'm going to have to try this!

I fail to see how changing from M or Tv or Av to P is expected to improve your photos in any particular way.

If it gives you one less thing to worry about then you weren't very comfortable in the other modes to start with. It isn't going to do a lick of good for your composition or the way you notice light and ratios. That is why his photos look incredible.

[rdenney]

My point exactly - I don't trust the in camera light meter most of the time and I use an external meter when possible.

I agree with everything you wrote--everything.

My point was that it's not an issue of whether we should use P, but rather an issue of how to use the light meter to get the tones we have visualized. If the light meter gives us those tones, then I need a reason not to use P. If it doesn't, then using Av, Tv, or even M won't fix the problem.

One thing I don't get about evaluative metering. Why would it ever blow out highlights? Why would it ever leave the histogram crammed over the one side? It seems to me that it should "expose to the right", pushing the histogram to the right, but keeping blown highlights to some user-settable minimum, such as 1% or 0.5%. Lost shadow details are a lot less objectionable to me than blown highlights. I know that means it either has to meter off the sensor (which I know is impractcial, except maybe with a Live View-style feature), but if it's dividing the image up into metering zones, then it should distribute those zones so that the brightest of them is still within the histogram--just.

Rick "who chimped often when shooting large format--using Polaroid" Denney

[rdenney]

SOMEBODY has to explain to me the method/success rate for using M with an on camera flash, because (hypothetically) laws of physics say you would have to be re-metering on every shot unless the distance from light source to subject is always the same. since it's on the camera and you're walking around, light would be traveling variable distance, and require constant aperture changes for correct exposure.

Remember that an E-TTL flash is not a manual flash. I use M on the camera to keep it from dragging the shutter (an effect I often don't want). The EX flash will still meter its output through the camera using the preflash. It will adjust itself to whatever aperture you select, up to its maximum light output. The wider the aperture you choose, the longer the reach of its automatic operation.

Back in my wedding days, I used a Mamiya TLR and never touched the exposure dials all day long. But I used an automatic flash--at that time a Sunpak 611. Heavy sucker!

Rick "f/8 and be there" Denney

[tonylong]

#1: What lens was Annie L using in that shot? I don't recognize it.

#2: Interesting discussion! I't been quite some time since I've used P in one of my DSLRs and I just don't give it much thought. I've spent pretty much all my time in either M when I'm comfortable metering a scene and want consistent exposure and control or Av when I'm in unpredictable lighting and I want to ensure a single subject is well exposed with certain parameters in place (such as maximize shutter speed with a certain given aperture and ensure the subject is well exposed, the scene as a whole be damned). This is often my approach to long telephoto wildlife in the murky conditions I've often found myself in. Wide aperture for maximum speed and selective focus, but not too wide so you can get the whole subject within the depth of field.

In P mode, the biggest problem is the inconsistency. If you don't use Program Shift and Exposure Lock in some combination for every shot, you have no say over the balance of shutter and aperture settings. It resets itself for each full button press. Ick. And note, according to my two bodies (5D and 1D3) "If you use a flash, you cannot use program shift" -- so when some us us say they use P with a flash, think of the control given up there. You get some using Exposure Compensation and Flash Compensation, but still that ability to shift the Aperture/Shutter operation around is unsettling.

So, I go into this discussion with those reasons why I stopped working with P mode shortly after using cameras that gave me more control.

Now, a discussion like this leads me to ask if there are in fact scenarios in which P mode would be better in that it would allow me to be more efficient/productive in my photography? Not that it would improve my exposures over M, Av, or Tv, but that it would be a more intuitive way to approach a shoot. For example, in the OPs illustration, suppose in a performance or event scenario the balance of aperture and shutter speed were not so critical, but getting the shot with the best possible exposure was? So, maybe, you would initially set an ISO for the overall environment, then for the rest of the event maybe tweak the EC up and down as needed, but not worry about aperture or shutter specifics unless you wanted, say, a close up of a performer with a given depth of field, so then you dial down your Program Shift (assuming no flash).

What do you event/performance shooters say about the possibility that P could be worth a try? I don't do much event, even less performance, I'm just wondering what the take is?

Still for most of the shooting I do I still would lean toward my tried and tested approaches, even if my results are less than the best due to my still-growing skills. But it would be interesting to hear skilled photogs who are solid in M, solid in Av when needed, and have stayed clear of P, give some thoughts as to why P could actually be useful in the hands of good, skilled photogs.

[vpnd]

Tony I agree with your studied statements in this thread. After posting yesterday morning, I had the morning off from shooting. So what would I do as a fan of photography, Drive around listening to left wing and right wing talk radio, drink 40 cups of coffee and squeeze off 500 images. I used ONLY P mode. The sun was shining bright all day and up here in North Dakota we have 4 feet of snow. The lighting didn't change all day. I set my 1dsmk2 at ISO 200 , ISO 320 and +2'3 EV. Also used my 40d same settings. I only used the 70-200 L f4 IS

As exposure goes they were all dead on. I was really surprised. Motor drive and everything else acted as normal. I never turned the right pointer finger wheel once. The exposures for the most part the shutter stayed around 1/1000th and the fstops were between F8 to f13.

I will deffinately do it again.

p.s. I am a crappy uploader, these images are sharp and look good full size

[priorityone]

i m with Double Negeative on this one. wat ever mode it is. so long has u r happy in the end. ther is no true line bout it. just keep tryin t ill ur comfertable.. and happy.

cheers

[Recon Photojournalist]

From what I understand, the P mode makes the camera check the photographic condition again it's pre-populated database for the closest ( not always the "best" or your ideal ) setting.

I always use the P mode in unknown conditions, such as shooting convicted criminal in a moving vehicle through that small window coming out of the court house. It's all over in less than 10 seconds and I can't afford the time to change any setting. I usually preset the focus ( estimate the distance between camera to the subject ) and switch the lens to MF.

[HoosierJoe]

The reason for this thread is... Joe Bussink was on tour for the last 3 shows for Christina Aguilara, ( now before the stupid comments on her... she paid him 20,000 a night for 4 nights, 1000 for an album 1each for all including roadies = 80 albums.....for 4 nights.) anyway he showed a slideshow where he shot everything for 4 nights in P at ISO 1600 he showed them straight outa the camera and they rocked. after that I tried it and was surprised how well the camera did. You still have to set ev just like you big shooters in AV, so why is P so much less of a setting...............ego's boysP isn't less of a setting. True there are some who call it "pathetic" mode. For some reason some people critisize what others do because it makes them feel superior. But I am a good ol boy from Indiana who never did give a @@it about that sort of criticism. Opinions are like @@@holes, everybody has one.

So use whatever mode gives you the best results. The pro you are talking about (and I have no idea who it is)has mastered using P. So go with it if you want to.

[HoosierJoe]

Tony I agree with your studied statements in this thread. After posting yesterday morning, I had the morning off from shooting. So what would I do as a fan of photography, Drive around listening to left wing and right wing talk radio, drink 40 cups of coffee and squeeze off 500 images. I used ONLY P mode. The sun was shining bright all day and up here in North Dakota we have 4 feet of snow. The lighting didn't change all day. I set my 1dsmk2 at ISO 200 , ISO 320 and +2'3 EV. Also used my 40d same settings. I only used the 70-200 L f4 IS

As exposure goes they were all dead on. I was really surprised. Motor drive and everything else acted as normal. I never turned the right pointer finger wheel once. The exposures for the most part the shutter stayed around 1/1000th and the fstops were between F8 to f13.

I will deffinately do it again.

p.s. I am a crappy uploader, these images are sharp and look good full sizeVery nice, I love the Dakotas.

[Eagle]

P, Tv, Av and M all have there uses. I use them all P the majority of the time, then Av and Tv, with M the least. With P you can over ride any setting. If I want a certain aperture DOF or low light I use Av. If I want a certain shutter for a particular motion effect I use Tv. Other times it's M. It just depends what I'm after and the light. As far as the four go what I don't understand is why Tv is not used by more people.

[Jim M]

I use P with an on camera flash with TTL for general walk around stuff.

SOMEBODY has to explain to me the method/success rate for using M with an on camera flash, because (hypothetically) laws of physics say you would have to be re-metering on every shot unless the distance from light source to subject is always the same. since it's on the camera and you're walking around, light would be traveling variable distance, and require constant aperture changes for correct exposure. Using P is more like the old guide number method: shutter stays at flash sync, distance to subject determines aperture (now calculated in camera with focusing distance information from the lens being communicated to the body and flash).

I'm not saying using M with a speedlight is wrong, and I'll do it for special interest shots. But as a general use setting for, say, a wedding reception where the subject distance is always variable, I don't get how it's working for people.
Using the camera set to M mode doesn't set the flash to its M mode. The flash still uses E-TTL for giving you the theoretically proper amount of light. The camera still measures the light from the preflash and tells the flash how much light to put out, but it provides that instruction based on the aperture you have told it to use.

[DennisW1]

I dunno about P mode, but Leibowitz certainly doesn't mind using a CRAPPY lens!

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/03/on-the-cover200903?mbid=hp_obama_otc



Wow, I wasn't all that impressed with the "enter Obama" slideshow. I really did like the one of Caroline and Ted Kennedy but the rest didn't do a whole lot for me, at least not from someone with such a reputation for portraits.