No action, No ball...

[johndevane]

The great teacher Namasste came up with this novel idea to be a photojournalist during basketball to enhance your view of the game. I just thought I'd submit a homework assignment so he'd have someone to grade... It is an often overlooked part of the joy of the game.

1.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_4653.jpg

2.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_9397.jpg

3.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_9303.jpg

4.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_4656.jpg

5.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_4461.jpg

6.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_3067.jpg

7.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_3568.jpg

8.
http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_4104.jpg

[Darsk47]

Awesome captures.

# 3 is priceless. I imagine the strategy the coach is detailing will really work well, especially for the first boy and the last girl #20 !! :D

You have the essence of tyke sports right here.

This is one of those times they'll never remember if they won or lost - just on whether they got to go to Dairy Queen after the game.

[AdamLewis]

Photojournalism is more than just snapshots.

Your pictures really have to tell a story when youre going for the photojournalistic approach.

After all, without the story, it would just be photoism ;)

That being said, these pictures dont tell a story.

Weve got shoes?..
Weve got a dad(?) pointing at something?..
Weve got a coach(?) pointing at something with half of the players asleep?..
Weve got half of a face of a girl smiling at something?..It also seems a little underexposed
A coach(?) saying something?..
People scratching their heads?..
A girl being carried on a guy's back?..
Another girl being carried on a guy's back?..


You see what Im saying here? These pictures dont really say anything and dont begin to tell a story. If the viewer has to guess at whats going on in the picture, the "journalism" aspect of photojournalism is absent.

Just something to think about next time.

[johndevane]

I haven't thought of DQ for years! :) Damn! I'll be back in a little while. Thanks for the nice words.

[johndevane]

Adam, I get your points, and for all the harassing you've been taking lately from me and others (in fun of course), I do have to say that I almost always agree with you. Hell, I even made a tribute to you in football season!

So, tell me the basketball shot that does tell a story. I have a few in mind, but I'd like to hear your examples.

[d44]

Adam, I'm not sure I agree -

Having coached a few kids' sports in my day, I think #3 tells the whole story . . .

[Darsk47]

Photojournalism is more than just snapshots.

Your pictures really have to tell a story when youre going for the photojournalistic approach.

After all, without the story, it would just be photoism ;)

That being said, these pictures dont tell a story.

Weve got shoes?..
Weve got a dad(?) pointing at something?..
Weve got a coach(?) pointing at something with half of the players asleep?..
Weve got half of a face of a girl smiling at something?..It also seems a little underexposed
A coach(?) saying something?..
People scratching their heads?..
A girl being carried on a guy's back?..
Another girl being carried on a guy's back?..


You see what Im saying here? These pictures dont really say anything and dont begin to tell a story. If the viewer has to guess at whats going on in the picture, the "journalism" aspect of photojournalism is absent.

Just something to think about next time.


I don't disagree. But most of these photos do meet that criteria - especially to a parent, like me, who has been in this type of situation.

These kids look like they're 5, 6 or 7.


They take instruction just like in shot 3.
They look as confused as shot 2.
They play like the kid in shot 4 just cuz it's fun to be with friends.
They get pooped out and tired and run to the best security they have in the world as shots 7 and 8 show. (this stage passes way too quickly)Individually each of these shots may look like a snap, but to a parent like me (3 daughters - each well past this age) it is a story of tyke sports, and fond memories of my kids' younger days, when they played just because it was fun. And win or lose, I got to carry them home.

[lsuber]

I think they're really good shots, and caught some nice individual moments. So maybe it's a photo essay, but they're good shots nonetheless.

[Big Hands]

1 - Interesting enough in composition.

2 - Cute shot, but not sure if they are fans in the stands or if the tyke is a player. I think the canned crop ratio detracts from this shot.

3 - I like this shot the best, however the tilted perspective needs to be fixed IMHO and here again the canned crop ratio leaves distracting elements in the shot (the soda can in the stands and debris on the floor on the right and a spectator on the left looking elsewhere along with more debris would be out if it were me cropping).

4 - The canned crop ratio (CCR) strikes again unnecessarily leaving a cyclops on the left of the frame.

5 - CCR: The gatorade bottle on the right and especially the forearm and ball on the left have to go. They add nothing and lead the viewer away from an otherwise decently cute non-action shot.

6 - This one leaves me scratching my head too....

7 - This one would be OK if cropped on the sides and levelled.

8 - Needs to be cropped on the sides. Similar to #7, but I like #7 better.

Overall: Since an explanation is not given, I do not understand the need to adhere to a the same crop ratio in all of the shots as presented here. As Grego used to tell me, "if it doesn't add to the shot, it takes away from it." If I were going to print them, I would process them differently/separately from what I presented on the web, so I don't get it. Your situation may be different, but all I know is what I see here.

#1, #3, #5, #7 and possibly #2 & #4 could be keepers, but I would probably lose the others. Captions may have helped your photojournalistic cause here too.

Since you were trying to present sports shots sans ball and action as an exercise, Adam's assessment may be a tad harsh (although he's certainly entitled to his opinion), but I also think there's some element of truth to it as well. To be fair though, I think I would struggle more than I normally do with this assignment too.

That being said, bravo for the attempt. It gives us all something to chew on in our quest to improve.
========================================
If you'd just as soon skip the anecdote and get to the meat of this, go right to the bottom to the part in italics.

This in some ways reminds me of a job interview I went on many years ago for a maintenance supervisor job with a local school district. I had scored well enough on the technical test to be in the final two to be called for a panel interview with the school board.

The interview was going well. Pencils were scratching away, smiling faces.... you get the idea. Then, one of the panel members asked me a question I will never forget: "What is your philosophy of maintenance?" I paused and then asked if he could be more specific about what he was looking for. He just stared back and repeated the question as he had the first time. I don't remember what my answer was, but I knew it wasn't what they were looking for and I could just sense it was over right then and there. At the time I was pissed as I walked out to my car and thought he was a jerk for not being more specific in his request. However I simmered down, I came to realize it was probably an excellent question and one I should have been prepared for had I truly been a proper candidate for the job. He's the only person from that interview whose name I still recall and I take that lesson learned with me to this day:

With regard to Adam's critique: Sometimes when we think we have things covered, a point of view seems to come from from left field and delivers a blow that hits below the waterline. Before dismissing it, let the sting subside and then give it some good consideration. It may be a hidden gem.

Regards,
Jeff

[AdamLewis]

Adam, I get your points, and for all the harassing you've been taking lately from me and others (in fun of course), I do have to say that I almost always agree with you. Hell, I even made a tribute to you in football season!

So, tell me the basketball shot that does tell a story. I have a few in mind, but I'd like to hear your examples.

Its all up to you. The picture just needs to convey something. An angry coach yealling with a depressed team in the background. Thats not "action" but it sure as hell tells a story.
Fans of the opposing team trying their hardest to distract a player. Again, not action but definitely tells a story.

You just need to try and look for ways for a story to be told in your image.

Like the shoes. Im assuming theyre stretching? The shoe pattern is neat but it by itself is not a journalistic picture. Find angles and compositions that allow the story to be told.

Make sense?

[AdamLewis]

I don't disagree. But most of these photos do meet that criteria - especially to a parent, like me, who has been in this type of situation.

These kids look like they're 5, 6 or 7.

They take instruction just like in shot 3.
They look as confused as shot 2.
They play like the kid in shot 4 just cuz it's fun to be with friends.
They get pooped out and tired and run to the best security they have in the world as shots 7 and 8 show. (this stage passes way too quickly)Individually each of these shots may look like a snap, but to a parent like me (3 daughters - each well past this age) it is a story of tyke sports, and fond memories of my kids' younger days, when they played just because it was fun. And win or lose, I got to carry them home.

Thats great that you like them "as a parent".

However, I hope you realize youre coming to this with a bias when you say that. Youre not looking at the work objectively and judging it on its journalistic merits. Youre simply thinking, "Oh those are cute!" and "Oh I remember those days" and you instantly love them.

No offense intended but its the same with all parents. You could have a photograph with major compsitional flaws and a parent would still love it just because its their kid. Theyre not being objective either at that point (and before anyone tries to start a fight with me, Im not saying they should be either!).

When people come on here and post pictures to share and I CC them, I do it as objectively as possible. When John says hes trying to be more journalistic about his approach, Im simply pointing out where these fall short and what it really means to shoot in a journalistic style.

[AdamLewis]

Adam, I'm not sure I agree -

Having coached a few kids' sports in my day, I think #3 tells the whole story . . .

Again...

Youre not being objective which really doesnt do any favors to the OP.

[johndevane]

Jeff,

Great observations. The crops are a bit of laziness on my part for this post. I had these pictures sized for my website specific dimensions, so I just posted them here instead of cropping for best effect. You pointed out some things that I wouldn't have seen anyway, so thanks very much.

This thread has been very insightful for me. I'm learning a new value to photojournalism that I hadn't considered. With the replies I've read, it's inspired me to take a harder look at this aspect, rather than just grabbing some snapshots during timeouts. Thanks to everyone.

John.

[johndevane]

Adam,

Once again, I find myself agreeing with you more and more. With your critique and Jeff's, I'm seeing a new side to this venture.

When I took the shots, I was going for cute or funny moments to share with the parents of the league. When I posted them here, I didn't consider the difference between 'cute' and 'journalistic'. Thanks for the great replies. I'll definitely have a go at the journalistic shots, with your advice and Jeff's advice in mind.

[namasste]

Dare I even chime in? I'll start by saying that when I first read Adam's crit I wasn't sure he was completely correct but there is merit to his comments. John, the IQ is great so I'll move straight past it. #1 I love, not too PJ at all but a great image all the same in its symmetry and color. Absolutely solid. 2,3,5, and 7 all have PJ characteristics to them and this is where I diverge with Adam's viewpoint. Good PJ work (imo) has to be consistent with the venue and event you are covering. At an NCAA game, there's a much different storyline than at a U8 (or less) hoops game. Knowing the event as you do, I think you captured the spirit of it quite well in the images I mentioned...coaching moments, distracted kids, a parent's comfort at a presumed loss...In each of these I can conjure up an idea of what must have been happening which IS the story and IS PJ in every sense. If you can weave them all together into an essay then you've really got something but a single pciture can be very PJ. Recall the image of the naked girl burned by Napalm in Vietnam (I think everyone has seen this). Its a strong image that tells a story. The third image you posted (while certainly not so dramatic) does the same as does the 7th where I can see a disappointed girl in a uniform being comforted by her dad whose carrying her out (maybe she even got hurt hence why she's carrying a shoe). Point is, it does tell a story about that moment and is therefore, by definition, PJ.

I'll stop short of saying this is a storyline series since I don't see a cohesiveness that would lead me to that but to suggest that most of these images aren't PJ is not very accurate imo since I see 4 of the 8 that are. On the others, I do agree that they don't really tell the tale of the moment but I don't think you should walk away from this thinking its a failed attempt. You did well and got a decent start, take the comments in this thread and consider them the next time you do this and I suspect it will be even better.

Peace.

[Sauk]

Photojournalism is more than just snapshots.

Your pictures really have to tell a story when youre going for the photojournalistic approach.

After all, without the story, it would just be photoism ;)

That being said, these pictures dont tell a story.

Weve got shoes?..
Weve got a dad(?) pointing at something?..
Weve got a coach(?) pointing at something with half of the players asleep?..
Weve got half of a face of a girl smiling at something?..It also seems a little underexposed
A coach(?) saying something?..
People scratching their heads?..
A girl being carried on a guy's back?..
Another girl being carried on a guy's back?..


You see what Im saying here? These pictures dont really say anything and dont begin to tell a story. If the viewer has to guess at whats going on in the picture, the "journalism" aspect of photojournalism is absent.

Just something to think about next time.


I don't agree with any of this at all. I think the images tell the story of little kids sports perfectly.

[johndevane]

Scott, Everyone's gonna think were boyfriends if you keep giving so much love. You're right about the girl being carried with her shoe, she got hurt and dad taxied her to the car.

Howabout this for a photo story:

http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_3564b.jpg

http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_3565.jpg

http://greenwood360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img_3568b.jpg

[Sauk]

Gosh I love images like that! I have two girls and being a dad to save the day like that is the greatest feeling :D

[AdamLewis]

I don't agree with any of this at all. I think the images tell the story of little kids sports perfectly.

Gosh I love images like that! I have two girls and being a dad to save the day like that is the greatest feeling :D

Thats great that you disagree but youre just flat out wrong.

Im sorry to say it but I didnt make the rules of what photojournalism is and theyre not exactly open to interpretation. Youre looking at them as a parent and not as on objectiove photographer.

Im not saying the images are bad.
Im not saying parents wont love them.

Im simply saying that as photjournalistic pieces, they cant stand on their own.

If you fail to see that, I dont really know what to tell you aside from the fact that youre coming to this with an obvious slant and it really doesnt helop anyone get better by doing so.

[Sauk]

lol Adam that is fine we will agree to disagree. I feel you're completely wrong and that is MY opinion.

[namasste]

Scott, Everyone's gonna think were boyfriends if you keep giving so much love. You're right about the girl being carried with her shoe, she got hurt and dad taxied her to the car.

Howabout this for a photo story:


Just say no when it comes to the bro(mance)!

I think you captured quite a bit with those shots John. People need to remember that to be PJ, it does not have to be news or even newsworthy, just convey a story about that moment.

BTW, is that Owen Wilson? :lol:

[johndevane]

See, that's funny. I do love you and I don't care who knows.

[Sauk]

See, that's funny. I do love you and I don't care who knows.


oh boy

http://www.hellocrazy.com/reserved/cards/200411140525360.gorillahug.jpg

[Simon Turkin]

Heres how I see it (just incase anyone cares)

There all very nice pictures good for the young kids when the actual sporting event may not have been the overall important part of the picture for the parents the dof is nice and #1 is very artistic.

Also in #3 there are 2 other slrs you cant go anywhere with out a parent having a rebel
As the kids get older their going to want to see action shots of them selves.

Also in

[johndevane]

oh boy

http://www.hellocrazy.com/reserved/cards/200411140525360.gorillahug.jpg

Not journalistic at all. What is that, a gorilla hugging a man? Doesn't tell a story.

[Sauk]

lol that was an image that came up when I googled "man hug" :D

[namasste]

lol that was an image that came up when I googled "man hug" :D
lmao! a fine example of the dangers of Google! :lol::lol:

I think Adam is defining photojournalism in a very very narrow scope based on his own experience and definition...

there are many definitions...for instance:
journalism that presents a story primarily through the use of pictures
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dphotojournalism&usg=AFQjCNGqh5u00X6DZsI1u4sKaddnoTekQQ)

There's clearly a story in some of those shot so by this definition, they are photojournalistic. This is not my interpretation, nor my definition, again..google at work. I'd further challenge that I saw many many PJ images of the new president waving during the inaugural. Are these PJ? I'd actually say no since they tell no story at all, simply a man waving (albeit a very powerful man). Still no story. On the other hand, a dad giving a girl a piggyback ride with a sad look on her face and carrying a shoe....that does tell a story. I'm not trying to argue for arguments sake but really, how can we call a tight shot of the pres waving PJ and not the image I am referring to in John's post? Respectfully, I submit that some here are not understanding the term PJ in a very broad sense at all and THAT does not help anyone grow (and yes Adam, you know I am directing that at ya so I don't want to seem like I am being a wuss and not calling it as I see it either...not that anyone suggested that, but still).

[Sauk]

http://home.student.uu.se/anhe8197/can_t_we_all_just_get_along.jpg

[Aaagogo]

nice and tasty popcorn

[johndevane]

Have a look here... http://bop.nppa.org/2007/still_photography/winners/SPY/102725/184088.html ...looks like all of our pictures could be in the running as 'photojournalism'.

[Dan-o]

I'm just curious if you have kids Adam. I think most of these tell quite the story. #3 is classic John. Not too crazy for 4 and 6 though.

[Dan-o]

Thats great that you disagree but youre just flat out wrong.

Wow, when did photography become so black and white. Like all art it is subjective.

[Sledhed]

The great teacher Namasste

That's hilarious, I about fell out of my chair laughing! :lol:

[McGyver555]

Photojournalism is more than just snapshots.

Your pictures really have to tell a story when youre going for the photojournalistic approach.

After all, without the story, it would just be photoism ;)

That being said, these pictures dont tell a story.

Weve got shoes?..
Weve got a dad(?) pointing at something?..
Weve got a coach(?) pointing at something with half of the players asleep?..
Weve got half of a face of a girl smiling at something?..It also seems a little underexposed
A coach(?) saying something?..
People scratching their heads?..
A girl being carried on a guy's back?..
Another girl being carried on a guy's back?..

You see what Im saying here? These pictures dont really say anything and dont begin to tell a story. If the viewer has to guess at whats going on in the picture, the "journalism" aspect of photojournalism is absent.

Just something to think about next time.

Its all up to you. The picture just needs to convey something. An angry coach yealling with a depressed team in the background. Thats not "action" but it sure as hell tells a story.
Like the shoes. Im assuming theyre stretching? The shoe pattern is neat but it by itself is not a journalistic picture. Find angles and compositions that allow the story to be told. Make sense?


However, I hope you realize youre coming to this with a bias when you say that. Youre not looking at the work objectively and judging it on its journalistic merits. Youre simply thinking, "Oh those are cute!" and "Oh I remember those days" and you instantly love them.

Thats great that you disagree but youre just flat out wrong.

Im sorry to say it but I didnt make the rules of what photojournalism is and theyre not exactly open to interpretation. Youre looking at them as a parent and not as on objectiove photographer.

Im not saying the images are bad.
Im not saying parents wont love them.

Im simply saying that as photjournalistic pieces, they cant stand on their own.

If you fail to see that, I dont really know what to tell you aside from the fact that youre coming to this with an obvious slant and it really doesnt help anyone get better by doing so.


Withdrew comments, want to spend more time learning than teaching on this forum. (and also staying on topic) Also should have shown more respect than was given.

[Simon Turkin]

^ Dude do you actually have that much time to further a dead arguement

[McGyver555]

I can appreciate the pictures posted. If the pictures are for enjoyment or photojournalism depending on your point of view, several of them were really great. Any time we can capture more of what is going on behind the scene is great. I have learned TONS from this forum and can't wait to learn more.

[RGolfJ]

I did not read this entire post....but I have to make an observation. #3 is a prime example of youth sports starting WAY too young nowadays.

[namasste]

That's hilarious, I about fell out of my chair laughing! :lol:
you know I'd kick ya in the jewels for that one if I could find a way to get to Chi town! :lol:

[Sledhed]

you know I'd kick ya in the jewels for that one if I could find a way to get to Chi town! :lol:

Come on over buddy, we'll go have a few beers and try to figure out some way to get Janes to pay for them.

[Sauk]

thats to bad that this thread has gone so far off topic. We are taking away from the great images that were posted.

[ozziepuppy]

I absolutely love #3. Look at what each child is doing! One child is even turned completely away! This is CLASSIC! I am not speaking as a parent here. This is the way kids this age ARE. And the coach is not being mean or frustrated or anything. He is explaining, and the kids are just doing what little kids do. . .
Great photo. :)

[liam5100]

thats to bad that this thread has gone so far off topic. We are taking away from the great images that were posted.

Soooo it wouldnt be appropriate for me to tell you that penquin image just made me want a penquin salad sandwich, maybe on some nice rye bread with a little mayo?

[namasste]

Soooo it wouldnt be appropriate for me to tell you that penquin image just made me want a penquin salad sandwich, maybe on some nice rye bread with a little mayo?penguin is way to gamey. :lol: unless of course we are talkin free range penguin.

[namasste]

Come on over buddy, we'll go have a few beers and try to figure out some way to get Janes to pay for them.
to quote Buzz Lightyear...I like the way you think Woody!

[liam5100]

penguin is way to gamey. :lol: unless of course we are talkin free range penguin.


Your right Scott, thats why I always like to cut it with about 50% dolphin mixed in.

[namasste]

Your right Scott, thats why I always like to cut it with about 50% dolphin mixed in.
You mean the ones you get on the cheap from the longliners at the docks?? Nice Bill, real nice! :lol::lol: