Rant - Don't work for family!

[tracyvb]

I've said it a million times to my husband who does construction and here I go the first e-session I do is for my SIL, no cash exchanged, just wanted to be able to use the photos to show in my portfolio to gain customers eventually that will pay. After about 7 hours invested in the taking and processing of the pics she now decides that they are a close and personal thing that she doesn't want to share.

They turned out REALLY pretty good for me being a beginner and I want to use them for marketing but I'm not trying to create drama in the family so I guess I'll just scrap that 7 hours and find someone not related and make them sign a contract right away.

Do you think it would be wrong of me to make them sign over rights to the pictures before I order them any prints?

[photoguy6405]

*nod*

And ya know the best part... she'll come back and ask for a favor or freebee again someday in the future.

As far as having them sign over rights, that depends on how much family drama you want to put up with. In the future, though, have them sign something before you even take the photos.

[_aravena]

Wow. Um...wow. I've never had that problem and I've done a lot of family stuff and friends of family.Really just depends on your family but it happens. Sorry.

[stathunter]

Yep-- I try to hold the line with the family by telling them I will do it for nothing -- but they need to get me a customer to make up for it. Then tell them my charge for a headshot ---- then they appreciate the work-- and have a lot more respect for your time.

[harroz]

hmm, get her to sign over the rights?, you have the rights to those images. You are copyright holder. If there was no contract of you signing the images over to her then you still hold copyright. Don't get me wrong here I'm no copyright evangalist, but I was in the same position not long ago and my cousin did the same thing after shooting for the same reason as well as of course getting them some images, but she also knew I was the copyright holder and so could do as I wished with the images. I only used 1 and it was decided by all involved so everyone was happy, they were maternity photos and so very personal. My suggestion would be to have a talk to her, explain the amount of hours you spent on those images, the reason why you did it at no cost, and see if you can find at least a couple that you both can agree on to use. If you are unable to use them on your site be sure to print them and put them in your portfolio.

good luck :-)

[harroz]

thats a spendid idea!

Yep-- I try to hold the line with the family by telling them I will do it for nothing -- but they need to get me a customer to make up for it. Then tell them my charge for a headshot ---- then they appreciate the work-- and have a lot more respect for your time.

[_aravena]

hmm, get her to sign over the rights?, you have the rights to those images. You are copyright holder. If there was no contract of you signing the images over to her then you still hold copyright. Don't get me wrong here I'm no copyright evangalist, but I was in the same position not long ago and my cousin did the same thing after shooting for the same reason as well as of course getting them some images, but she also knew I was the copyright holder and so could do as I wished with the images. I only used 1 and it was decided by all involved so everyone was happy, they were maternity photos and so very personal. My suggestion would be to have a talk to her, explain the amount of hours you spent on those images, the reason why you did it at no cost, and see if you can find at least a couple that you both can agree on to use. If you are unable to use them on your site be sure to print them and put them in your portfolio.

good luck :-)

Ditto.

Actually, I cover all family events since I'm there anyway. But my aunt did pay me for 2hrs of family portraits which was nice of her. She offered with me saying anything, My family isn't the most well off so it's hard to charge but thanks to her, depending on the situation I would charge now and a lot less than I would anyone else. It is family after all. It really depends on your relationship with them.

[egordon99]

Tell your SIL the deal was "I take your pictures for free, but I get to use them in my portfolio...."

If she doesn't want them in your portfolio, she doesn't get the pictures :) (or she can pay the "going rate" like everyone else....)

[Hikin Mike]

Tell your SIL the deal was "I take your pictures for free, but I get to use them in my portfolio...."

If she doesn't want them in your portfolio, she doesn't get the pictures :) (or she can pay the "going rate" like everyone else....)

+1. :D

[alduin]

hmm, get her to sign over the rights?, you have the rights to those images. You are copyright holder. If there was no contract of you signing the images over to her then you still hold copyright.

She mentioned wanting to use them as marketing material, so I think she's looking for a model release, not copyright.

I haven't had family ask me to do anything yet. I'm only just starting to make money on photography, but I really hope I just never have to deal with business and family. If I do, I'll probably accept/reject the job on the basis that any time put into it will be a total loss. =)

[tracyvb]

You're right I was looking for a model release. Though it's good to know that I hold the copyright for the photos, I thought so but it's nice to hear it.

I don't really want to make waves (since I'm a bridesmaid - and the story thickens) so I told her that if she doesn't want me to use the pictures on my web page that I would just charge her for prints. And I still plan on posting for C&C on this forum regardless of the outcome. ;) Luckily I set up my zenfolio site right before these pics so no printing them without me. ;)

I guess I at least got some PP practice ... and I'M NOT taking my camera to the wedding! lesson learned!

bummer :(

[Dennis_Hammer]

You can still use them as portfolio shots, you need no permission for that. And thats not really public you show them to interested individuals not posted for anyone to see.

[Karl Johnston]

Crikey, 7 hours of processing? Why so much ?

[cory1848]

You can still use them as portfolio shots, you need no permission for that. And thats not really public you show them to interested individuals not posted for anyone to see.

+1, Website and portfolio are not considered commercial material if I understand things correctly. But putting those images on a T-shirt and selling that T-shirt to the public, would be.

[tracyvb]

Crikey, 7 hours of processing? Why so much ?

No 7 hours total, scouting the places she wanted to use (which may have been a little for me), 2.5 hours of taking more and more pictures (including 2 stops at gas stations for outfit changes) ...

[tracyvb]

+1, Website and portfolio are not considered commercial material if I understand things correctly. But putting those images on a T-shirt and selling that T-shirt to the public, would be.

so can I put them on my zenfolio site under a password protected album and give the album password only to those interested in using my services?

[Karl Johnston]

Ah i see.. try using one of these before any job you do, and have the contract and release in there too.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60342

It saves all hassle, even if she is your (sister in law?) it doesn't excuse the necessity. It could be your husband himself, business is business.

Though if you don`t have a release to use the photos, let alone a TA or contract and the photos are of her family then you could get in trouble for publishing them in places she didn`t want them published, or to have you use them at all would get you in trouble too.

Then again it`s one of those gray areas that nobody cares about, like jaywalking, but theoretically you could get in trouble. I`d just scrap it, find a new person and make sure they signed the paperwork before photographing them

[Picture North Carolina]

Rant - Don't work for family! Word!

But taken one step further, don't work with your family either. It'll probably end in disaster. Trust me.

[P51Mstg]

Dennis_Hammer hit the nail on the head..... You don't need them for your portfolio (I'd say you might if you post them on the web) but in a portfolio book, no.........

Also I'd tell them what we agreed to. I shoot and get to use them, you can have prints. So I you will not let me use them, then, no prints. Hit the delete key and end it.

My cousin the dentist charges me the same to work on my teeth as anyone else. Another Uncle who is a carpenter did work on the house and charged me the going rate.........

Needless to say NONE of my relatives have asked me to do anything for them since I charge them double and cash upfront......

Mark H

[jgrussell]

I was the copyright holder and so could do as I wished with the images.That may be true in NZ where you are but it's not universally the case. In the US, you as the photographer are the copyright holder, yes, but can NOT "do as [you] wish" with the images unless you also have a model release.

[harroz]

Oh yes sorry, same here in NZ, I can't do 'as I wish' as in sell them etc, but I can use them for my portfolio/website without a release. Although, as with this case, there is also an ethics issue.


That may be true in NZ where you are but it's not universally the case. In the US, you as the photographer are the copyright holder, yes, but can NOT "do as [you] wish" with the images unless you also have a model release.

[Wilt]

hmm, get her to sign over the rights?, you have the rights to those images. You are copyright holder. If there was no contract of you signing the images over to her then you still hold copyright. Don't get me wrong here I'm no copyright evangalist, but I was in the same position not long ago and my cousin did the same thing after shooting for the same reason as well as of course getting them some images, but she also knew I was the copyright holder and so could do as I wished with the images. I only used 1 and it was decided by all involved so everyone was happy, they were maternity photos and so very personal. My suggestion would be to have a talk to her, explain the amount of hours you spent on those images, the reason why you did it at no cost, and see if you can find at least a couple that you both can agree on to use. If you are unable to use them on your site be sure to print them and put them in your portfolio.

good luck :-)

According to rights to USA photographers...
She has reproduction rights, she has rights to compensation if the photos are used for commercial purposes. But she has NO RIGHTS TO USE the photos for the promotion of her own business, nor any rights to sell the photos for commercial use, unles she has a Release from the person(s) in the photo who are recognizable individuals.

[airfrogusmc]

Working for family is tough. I try to avoid it.

[TMCCaptured]

I am only a noob, the only reason I found this website is because I did a search on this same type of proble a short while ago.
My story is similar...I did the job for a SIL and mentioned that she got a great deal as I had to get permission to shoot where we did and the images came our good. All I wanted was t use the images for a portfolio so I could expand my deal that I have, she changed her mind and sent a letter stating that if I used them I would face legal action....bearing in mind we are family and I needed these shots for my Degree in Media Arts!!! My entire time was wasted.

Needless to say Karma is a bee-arch sometimes and My business required urgent product shots because their inhouse expert (a guy with a P&S) was away. I turned them down because of princeaple(???) when I told him (my brother) why he completly understood and agreed that she was rude for doing so.

I did the product shoot for market rate (he found three other photogs) and he paid me the more expensive and some for the hassle.

This had caused strain on my family as I never took my camera out to shoot any images unless they were of my parents and kids etc...

I wouldnt worry about things. Yes she was out of line as you spent alot of hours for nothing but stress, but it will always come round to serve you better. Just learn from this and next time remember...Everyone signe a form

[photoguy6405]

My story is similar...I did the job for a SIL and mentioned that she got a great deal as I had to get permission to shoot where we did and the images came our good. All I wanted was t use the images for a portfolio so I could expand my deal that I have, she changed her mind and sent a letter stating that if I used them I would face legal action....bearing in mind we are family and I needed these shots for my Degree in Media Arts!!! My entire time was wasted.

You could always send a letter back stating that if you ever catch her violating your copyright in any way... including making unauthorized prints... that she will face legal action. :evil:

Ok, not really, but it's a fun thought.