Question for second shooters, at weddings.

[inthedeck]

I'm going to meet up with a wedding photogpher next week. She has a couple of positions as a second shooter available, and I figure that's more than enough for me, as I've never photographed a wedding. It is something I'd like to try, so, I set up a meeting with her.

Now, my question is, how does being a second shooter work in terms of compensation and images? I haven't discussed that with her, yet, as that's what the meeting next week will probably entail. But, I figured there's enough of us here to get me started on the questions I should be asking with relation to this situation.

-- What does a second shooter typically get paid for an 8-10 hour day?
-- What does a second shooter do with the images they capture at the wedding? Rights issues? etc?
-- Are food and beverage typically included for a second shooter? or is that something one has to prepare for, in advance, given it'll be a rather long day.
-- Better to shoot jpeg, or raw?
-- Better to use a zoom, primes, etc?

Any other questions that come to mind, that I should be asking, when I meet the actual photographer? I'm just trying to find out as much as I can before the actual meeting, so maybe some of you that have had the experience, or currently going through this experience, would help shed some light on all this. I'd appreciate it. ;)

Oh, and just a tidbit of info., from what I noticed on her site is that her packages start at $3800.

[*Mike*]

Now, my question is, how does being a second shooter work in terms of compensation and images? I haven't discussed that with her, yet, as that's what the meeting next week will probably entail.

This is open to negotiation and varies widely - by studio, by region, by experience, etc. For example, we pay second shooters if they are experienced, capable, wedding photogs. If I know I can rely on them for images, they are paid. But, if they are along for experience it's volunteer - I'll buy us dinner afterwards. In this case, I don't rely on them for anything, although we'll use what they get...

As for rights, by contract we assume all copyright ownership for any images shot by second or third shooters, assistants, etc. We have to have the right to use the images as necessary, and can't worry about getting specific usage rights form other shooters. We also can't have them selling the images themselves... Instead, we take all the unprocessed images, let them keep a copy, and grant them the right to use them for portfolio and competition puposes.


-- Are food and beverage typically included for a second shooter? or is that something one has to prepare for, in advance, given it'll be a rather long day.


Again, it'll vary by studio... some require that they (and their staff) be fed. Others will not eat at a wedding, much less with guests.


-- Better to shoot jpeg, or raw?
-- Better to use a zoom, primes, etc?


These are really hard to answer... They have little to do with second shooting and more to do with personal preference and ability. The only exception would be if the studio requires RAW or jpg.


Any other questions that come to mind, that I should be asking, when I meet the actual photographer?


Honestly, the market is soooo inundated that, more than anything else, I'd work at selling myself. They are going to have a lot of options... To give you an idea - we've had photogs drive six hours (each way) to second shoot with us, entirely for the experience.

When we interview contract shooters, or interns, our primary concern is how they represent the studio - what image do they portray? Can I trust them around clients and potential clients to act professionally? We also want to make sure that we get along on a personal level since weddings are long days - and having someone make them feel even longer ain't cool.

Oh, and just a tidbit of info., from what I noticed on her site is that her packages start at $3800.

Honestly, this doesn't mean anything. She pays all kinds of business expenses that you'll never have to think about. Not to mention that she assumes all the liability. We pay second shooters based on their abilty - it has very little, if anything, to do with how much we charged for the wedding...

Good luck!

[inthedeck]

Hey thanks Mike. I appreciate the detailed response. No doubt about it. ;)

I guess I'll just wait to see how the meeting goes, and see what's expected from them. I'm confident about my abilities, but, not so confident at the same time...so, experience will definitely be a key factor in this one. ;)

[Chris Dana]

I'm going to meet up with a wedding photogpher next week. She has a couple of positions as a second shooter available, and I figure that's more than enough for me, as I've never photographed a wedding. It is something I'd like to try, so, I set up a meeting with her.

Now, my question is, how does being a second shooter work in terms of compensation and images? I haven't discussed that with her, yet, as that's what the meeting next week will probably entail. But, I figured there's enough of us here to get me started on the questions I should be asking with relation to this situation.

-- What does a second shooter typically get paid for an 8-10 hour day?
-- What does a second shooter do with the images they capture at the wedding? Rights issues? etc?
-- Are food and beverage typically included for a second shooter? or is that something one has to prepare for, in advance, given it'll be a rather long day.
-- Better to shoot jpeg, or raw?
-- Better to use a zoom, primes, etc?

Any other questions that come to mind, that I should be asking, when I meet the actual photographer? I'm just trying to find out as much as I can before the actual meeting, so maybe some of you that have had the experience, or currently going through this experience, would help shed some light on all this. I'd appreciate it. ;)

Oh, and just a tidbit of info., from what I noticed on her site is that her packages start at $3800.

when I chatted with the woman I now work for, I asked a bunch of questions. Ask also about insurance if your stuff gets damaged, if you need to do any PP, what type of posing for portraits are required, when do you get paid, how quickly should you have images turned around, and attire required. I would also ask if there is any way you can shadow (third shoot) with one of her established seconds for at least two gigs before you start second shooting for her. This is all I can think of at the moment. I'd go dig out the list I had, but a napping baby on my shoulder prohibits this.

Also, I'd shoot in raw simply because you can correct white balance issues after the fact.

[inthedeck]

Thanks Chris. Makes sense, and I'll keep that in mind, as well. ;)

[tim]

Now, my question is, how does being a second shooter work in terms of compensation and images? I haven't discussed that with her, yet, as that's what the meeting next week will probably entail. But, I figured there's enough of us here to get me started on the questions I should be asking with relation to this situation.

-- What does a second shooter typically get paid for an 8-10 hour day?
-- What does a second shooter do with the images they capture at the wedding? Rights issues? etc?
-- Are food and beverage typically included for a second shooter? or is that something one has to prepare for, in advance, given it'll be a rather long day.
-- Better to shoot jpeg, or raw?
-- Better to use a zoom, primes, etc?

My thoughts:
- Until you prove yourself payment will be minimal. Maybe nothing. If she's advertising though she'll have to pay you. I have an assistant who's more assistant than photographer but takes photos too, I pay her about 1.5X minimum wage. Minimum wage in New Zealand is enough to live on... not well but you can. It also depends if you use your own equipment or theirs. If you use your own, then more. If a 2nd shooter gets to the point where they're capable of shooting a wedding themselves then they should be paid more, but more for what they're doing than what they could do.
- The person paying you owns all rights to the images, they'll make you sign a contract. You have no rights. Ask for rights to use them, and accept any limitations imposed. I let my 2nd use the images in a printed portfolio, but not online or in competitions without my written permission.
- Food & drink probably best to take your own. A meal is probably supplied, but ask the primary.

For all other queries ask the person paying you.

[tim]

Oh, for insurance, no-one else can insure your equipment for you. That's just the way insurance works.

[tdodd]

I started second shooting last summer. I shot the first three weddings for free. The experience and opportunity was at least as valuable to me as any financial compensation. For those three weddings I shot raw and supplied edited JPEGs to the pro. The editing experience was also useful. It taught me to shoot less and concentrate on higher quality more than high quantity. I'd far rather have only 400-500 decent images to pore over than 900-1,000 so-so images to wade through.

Based on the portfolio from those three weddings I was offered a paying job by someone else. That earned my £150 for 5.5 hours work, shooting and supplying raw files at the end of the day. I got paid on receipt of the raw files and did not have to do any editing.

I provide my own insurance for kit and third party liability. I have never expected to be fed at a wedding but so far the B&G have always laid something on for the photographers, but usually away from the guests.

[tim]

Eating away from the guests is good, you get a chance to relax. Today my assistant and I ate sitting in the sun, with a fantastic view. The few guests that saw us were jealous!

[inthedeck]

Thanks Tim and tdodd, appreciate the info. I wasn't lookin' to make much here, as I figured the experience is well worth it for me. I also probably would take my own food, as well, since I'd be more comfortable that way anyway. As for insurance, I already have my gear insured, so, I'm not too worried there either.

The rest of the stuff, I will find out on Tuesday so that I am aware of what to expect. Though, I would like to be able to 'display' images online...so, that might be something I will have to chat about, once I get to that point.

Appreciate the time to comment. ;)

[inthedeck]

Well, just to provide an update. I met with the woman, and while I will say she was nice, I don't think we really clicked. That's as important for me, as I am sure it is for her. However, when I left the meeting, I didn't feel as though she's someone I could work with for 8-10 hours, as Mike mentioned above.

I'm also curious, and maybe someone would help me with this, is having a book with samples of your work (though not wedding related) important to bring to such a meeting, even though the person has seen your site and images online? In all honesty, I have no idea, and that's why I am asking. Reason? Well, she asked for a sample of my work, and I've never really thought about creating a book with my work so, I had nothing for her with respect to that. I just had visibility into my work through my site.

Again, I'm not sad, or frustrated. I think I learned a lot by meeting someone if only for about 45 minutes. I found out the types of questions someone in her position would ask, second, that for future reference, no matter what, I should have a book of my work with me at all times, and third, a life lesson on the types of people I may/may not be compatible with. For me, that is more than enough, even if I don't have the opportunity to work with her group. :)

I appreciate all your help, and thank you all for takin' the time to answer my questions.

Cheers,
Manish.

[tim]

A few thoughts:
- Yes, you definitely need to show samples of your work. Trying to get wedding work without a wedding portfolio will be VERY difficult, even if you don't charge.
- You only sell what you show. For a couple of years my only full sized album was a 14x10" matted album, with a couple of perhaps 8" magazine style albums. 90% of my customers choose the matted album. Now I have an 18x12" magazine style album, and 75% of my customers are going for that style, even though I charge 10% more for them. People just can't imagine things.
- I always have customers come to me. If I go to them it seems like i'm asking for work, if they come to me it's like they're requesting my service. That's just how I feel and it's not the same for everyone.

[inthedeck]

Tim, I understand what you are saying, but, I think something got lost in translation.

I wanted to be a second/third shooter for a wedding photographer. I was not trying to gain business for a wedding. It was more of an interview, with the wedding photographer herself.

As such, she asked if I had a sample of my work...and all I could say is that everything I've done is on my site. Which she knew about before hand...and is a reason I guess that I was called in to meet her.

Thus, I asked if having a book of my work with me, even though it is not wedding related, would have helped during the interview with the wedding photog. herself.

As for what you are saying...yeah, totally...if I were to be booking someone 'for' a wedding, I would definitely take a book with me, etc.

[tim]

Yeah, my comments were out of context. Oh well, they're still valuable I think.

[inthedeck]

Of course...and it's good info. No doubt.

I'm just curious if a book for my scenario would have helped my cause, any? Regardless, it was a good experience for me...and something that I need to prepare for better next time. Of course, I have no idea if I was chosen or not, but, going by my gut feeling, I don't think so. And that's OK...not everyone clicks with everyone else. And that's just fine, by me. ;)

[tim]

Any bride who wants to interview a 3rd shooter and see a portfolio is probably someone you want to avoid.

[inthedeck]

Tim...haha...I totally think we are both on the wrong page here.

The 'wedding photographer' that I interviewed with today, asked me for a sample of my work in the form of a book. I did not have one, but, I know she has access to my site. Is this something that most wedding photographers (first shooters) will request, from a second/third shooter?

[tim]

I just haven't read the thread recently, sorry i'm completely off topic.

If I was interviewing someone to take photos then yes, i'd want to see samples of their work. However until someone has proven themselves to me I assume that they won't get any good photos. I don't expect to see the photos in a book, website or email is fine. I hired an assistant/2nd shooter recently, I wasn't really worried if they were any good as I know I can teach them and assisting was the main requirement.

[inthedeck]

Right...and now that we're back on track...I had shown her my site, which is why I believe she had contacted me.

As for creating a book, I think I will do that anyway...just for next time around. Can't hurt...but, I have no idea where to start, or what size the images should be, etc. I'll figure it out, soon enough, though. ;)

Thanks for the help.