Legal Question.........Kids

[guntoter]

I recently went to photograph my neice at a basketball game. She is a cheerleader in middle school. While I was there, I photgraphed no only her, but her entire team as they did their thing. I also took some photos of the teams playing.

Is there any legal problems with doing what I did?

I actually got quite a few good shots of the girls, which I think their parents would pay to get. However, if I approach them, can I be in trouble, legally, for taking pics of their daughters?

No I am not a pervert. I am trying to start a sideline business.

[Tigershark]

Can't help you on the legal issues but the MiddleSchools I shoot for I have a contract so if someone has a contract with the School you could get into some issues depending on their contract. It is best if you approach the AD first, just a suggestion and good luck with the business

[Alleh]

No it is absolutely legal and you can approach them and offer to sell them prints.

[Pete]

The obvious answer would be to approach the coach and ask.

It maybe that that the school has an agreement or a set policy regarding photography of the kids, or of photography in general on school property.

[Alleh]

I should ad that if for some reason another photographer had some type of contract with the school. The only right the school has is to ask you not to take photographs or maybe even ask you to leave if you persisted. They don't however have any control over the photos already taken and how you use them up until the line of photo licensing comes into play. If you wanted to sell on of the images for commercial use you would need at least a model release and sometimes a property release. Neither of those pertains to personal, editorial or print sales.

[guntoter]

The obvious answer would be to approach the coach and ask.

It maybe that that the school has an agreement or a set policy regarding photography of the kids, or of photography in general on school property.

That would be prudent. My actual invitation was from my neice and her parents. However, that doesn't cover the other kiddos.

Good advice. Thanks

[RDKirk]

Regarding contracts, the first point is that a photographer's contract with the school governs the school and that photographer...nobody who has not signed the contract is subject to its terms.

A photographer with a school contract does not have the right to forbid another photographer from taking pictures at a public venue (that is, off school property). The contract merely gives the photographer the exclusive right to use the school venue and to sell photographs to students through the school.

In addition, the school needs a contract with the game venue (the park or stadium) as if they intend to keep other photographers from shooting the game. That then becomes the responsibility of the manager of the venue--it becomes the park's responsibility to prevent non-contract photography (which can include parks that are otherwise public--the local law may allow exclusive use of areas for closed functions).

If the park does not forbid photography, nobody can. Of course, that doesn't mean some people won't take it upon themselves to try, including other parents--without a shred of legal backing. Then it becomes an issue of how the photographer handles the situation as a personal matter.

[DDCSD]

Regarding contracts, the first point is that a photographer's contract with the school governs the school and that photographer...nobody who has not signed the contract is subject to its terms.

A photographer with a school contract does not have the right to forbid another photographer from taking pictures at a public venue (that is, off school property). The contract merely gives the photographer the exclusive right to use the school venue and to sell photographs to students through the school.

In addition, the school needs a contract with the game venue (the park or stadium) as if they intend to keep other photographers from shooting the game. That then becomes the responsibility of the manager of the venue--it becomes the park's responsibility to prevent non-contract photography (which can include parks that are otherwise public--the local law may allow exclusive use of areas for closed functions).

If the park does not forbid photography, nobody can. Of course, that doesn't mean some people won't take it upon themselves to try, including other parents--without a shred of legal backing. Then it becomes an issue of how the photographer handles the situation as a personal matter.

I have no idea whether or not the legality issues that you raise are true or not, but there would be no surer way to get yourself banned from every school event than to argue with the school's representative that they can't legally stop you from photographing their team because the school doesn't own the gym they are playing in.

Not only would you be banned from every event at that school, but you'd probably be banned from every other school in the area as well.

The bottom line is this, if the highest "ranking" representative of the school tells you to stop shooting you need to stop shooting, no matter where the event is held. You can argue legalities all you want, but the law really doesn't matter. You can always bring it up to that person's superiors at a later date.

[DDCSD]

OP-

Technically you can sell to the parents with no legal ramifications.

If you want to make this a business someday, you need to talk to the school before doing so. You really don't want to get yourself blacklisted from the schools. The AD's and coaches from every school in the area will talk, and you'll be shut out of schools before you even get a chance.

[cory1848]

Regarding contracts, the first point is that a photographer's contract with the school governs the school and that photographer...nobody who has not signed the contract is subject to its terms.

A photographer with a school contract does not have the right to forbid another photographer from taking pictures at a public venue (that is, off school property). The contract merely gives the photographer the exclusive right to use the school venue and to sell photographs to students through the school.

In addition, the school needs a contract with the game venue (the park or stadium) as if they intend to keep other photographers from shooting the game. That then becomes the responsibility of the manager of the venue--it becomes the park's responsibility to prevent non-contract photography (which can include parks that are otherwise public--the local law may allow exclusive use of areas for closed functions).

If the park does not forbid photography, nobody can. Of course, that doesn't mean some people won't take it upon themselves to try, including other parents--without a shred of legal backing. Then it becomes an issue of how the photographer handles the situation as a personal matter.

I don't think thats 100% correct. Once the school contracts with the venue, and its pretty safe to assume that any off campus venue is contracted due to liability reasons, then that venue is no longer public. The school can forbid any photography if they so choose. They can also kick you off the property as well. Once its contracted its no longer the parks responsibility. This is similar to soccer leagues playing at Public state owed fields. If a league comes in, that field is "rented" and the rules of the park default to the rules of the league.

You can also look up Little League baseball and see how strict their rules are... gives you a good idea of what is allowed and what is not allowed.

To the OP, Like others have said, check with the AD to see if another photog is contracted, if not, see if you can jump in on it.

[guntoter]

Thanks to everyone who responded. Some good advice, and taking the cautious route is the best in this case it seems.
Also, if I did get AD or coach permission (or principle), then no others could resonably complain.

Thanks again,
Joel

[imahawki]

I have no idea whether or not the legality issues that you raise are true or not, but there would be no surer way to get yourself banned from every school event than to argue with the school's representative that they can't legally stop you from photographing their team because the school doesn't own the gym they are playing in.

Not only would you be banned from every event at that school, but you'd probably be banned from every other school in the area as well.

The bottom line is this, if the highest "ranking" representative of the school tells you to stop shooting you need to stop shooting, no matter where the event is held. You can argue legalities all you want, but the law really doesn't matter. You can always bring it up to that person's superiors at a later date.
It depends on how far you're willing to go. If you're willing to take the school to court then the law absolutely DOES matter and if the court rules in your favor, then the school official gets tough cookies.

[S.Horton]

Without a contract, I would suggest just waiting for people to ask.

They will, and if you've built the ability to post quality results online for sale, and people enjoy the results, then the word will spread.

;}

[DDCSD]

It depends on how far you're willing to go. If you're willing to take the school to court then the law absolutely DOES matter and if the court rules in your favor, then the school official gets tough cookies.

Taking the school to court is not a good way to increase your business. If you want to be shut out of any chance of shooting for most any school just to prove a legal point, go right ahead.

To me, it doesn't matter if they can legally keep me from shooting. I'm not going to jeopardize my income to prove that I am legally right.

Just because you have the legal right to do something doesn't mean that you should.

[imahawki]

Agree 100%. I was just making the point that what you're legally allowed to do can matter.

[SuzyView]

Make sure the schools do not have a contract already with any photography group. That sometimes happens with leagues, where you join, sign something and are subject to their rules about images. I shoot for my sons' teams and the parents get whatever I give them free. If I decided to do this for money, I would have to sign something with the league. They insist on it.

[guntoter]

Taking the school to court is not a good way to increase your business. If you want to be shut out of any chance of shooting for most any school just to prove a legal point, go right ahead.

To me, it doesn't matter if they can legally keep me from shooting. I'm not going to jeopardize my income to prove that I am legally right.

Just because you have the legal right to do something doesn't mean that you should.

Taking anyone to court is the furtherest thing from my mind. I guess my original queston is geared toward:
"Can I be taken to court for just taking pics of minors at a public school event?"
I wouldn't think so, especially since I was invited to take pics by some of the participants & their parents.

It is the other parents that I was wondering about. In most cases, I would suspect they would be happy with someone taking pics & making them available, but you never know.

[RDKirk]

The bottom line is this, if the highest "ranking" representative of the school tells you to stop shooting you need to stop shooting, no matter where the event is held. You can argue legalities all you want, but the law really doesn't matter. You can always bring it up to that person's superiors at a later date.

You quoted my final paragraph, but apparently didn't read it--the photographer will have to determine where to draw the line for business reasons. In many cases the better long-term business decision is for the photographer to take the matter to court, and in court the law most definitely does matter.

I don't think thats 100% correct. Once the school contracts with the venue, and its pretty safe to assume that any off campus venue is contracted due to liability reasons, then that venue is no longer public. The school can forbid any photography if they so choose. They can also kick you off the property as well. Once its contracted its no longer the parks responsibility. This is similar to soccer leagues playing at Public state owed fields. If a league comes in, that field is "rented" and the rules of the park default to the rules of the league.

I don't know of any circumstance in which a venue can legally relinquish responsibility for physical security of the premises (that's what we're talking about here) when it's contracted to the school. A school official may think that makes him Barney Fife, but if the matter ever goes to court, he will find out differently.

The contracts almost always leave physical security the responsibility of the venue, with the definition of whom and what to secure, yes, being the decision of the school. That means what the school official should do is alert whatever security the venue has obtained to, "Do your duty, officer."

[DDCSD]

Taking anyone to court is the furtherest thing from my mind. I guess my original queston is geared toward:
"Can I be taken to court for just taking pics of minors at a public school event?"
I wouldn't think so, especially since I was invited to take pics by some of the participants & their parents.

It is the other parents that I was wondering about. In most cases, I would suspect they would be happy with someone taking pics & making them available, but you never know.

Nope, you are 100% in the clear legally. It is the other, non-legal, concerns that you have to think about though.

You quoted my final paragraph, but apparently didn't read it--the photographer will have to determine where to draw the line for business reasons. In many cases the better long-term business decision is for the photographer to take the matter to court, and in court the law most definitely does matter.


I never said that the law doesn't matter in court. I simply pointed out that you would be insane to take a school to court over them not allowing you to photograph their events when they are held at a venue not owned by the school.

I cannot think of a single instance where this would be a good idea. It would be business suicide to argue with a school official that they can't stop you from shooting. If someone wrongly stops you from shooting a school event (regardless if they have the authority to or not), you should pack up your gear. You then bring it up with whoever that person's supervisor.