What am I doing wrong?

[sancho1983]

Hi there, am loving this site and have learnt a lot in the relatively short time i've been here, sometimes i get a bit disheartened with the quality of my shots, for example the one below

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/sancho_1983/rutlandwater_57.jpg

I focused about a third of the way down the pine cone from the top, however the focus point seems to be in front of the cone completely! I thought the lens might be 'front focusing' (bad workman always blames his tools....) so i stopped it down a bit from wide open, f5.6 i believe, which i thought might compensate for any focusing problems

Another example

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/sancho_1983/rutlandwater_68.jpg

I know it's technically/Compositionally (think i invented a word) not a good shot, but it doesn't seem very sharp either.

Both of the shots seem a bit...... meh. The colours seem odd. I shoot in Av always, manually select the focus point rather than recomposing and try not to use my lenses fully open, as they seem soft there. I always shoot in RAW then convert using ACR. No other pp has been done to either of these shots.

Am i wrong for jumping straight into using Av?, don't really want to use the green box. Perhaps i am expecting too much after looking at the professional shots on here.

[songexe]

What lens did you use?

There's nothing wrong with jumping straight into the semi-automatic modes at all!

[sancho1983]

Both with the 18-55IS, i had the 18-55 before and they were even worse!! Was pleased with the new lens, is definitely an improvement, just feel like i'm missing something....

What ISO should be acceptable with the 20d? Both are 400 which i didn't notice before, i always forget to change that!! But 400 should be ok right?

[number six]

As you said, the top shot is front-focused. This may or may not be the fault of the equipment - at 55 mm, your DOF at f/5.6 isn't very deep and body motion can lead to an OOF shot.

Were these shots handheld? If so, try a tripod...

-js

[number six]

Oh, yeah: you asked about Av. It's the most useful mode, IMO. You should never need to go to the green box unless you're handing your camera to a novice.

-js

[Laramie]

Where did you focus on the second shot? The wood grain looks pretty sharp.

How were you standing/holding the camera for the first shot? I think your focus plane is tilted so that in front of the cone looks in focus along with the very tips of the cone.

[Duncan Frenz]

Could you elaborate on how you focus? You say you manually select the focusing point rather than recompose. Using the center focusing point will provide more accurate focusing than any other point.

[sancho1983]

As you said, the top shot is front-focused. This may or may not be the fault of the equipment - at 55 mm, your DOF at f/5.6 isn't very deep and body motion can lead to an OOF shot.

Were these shots handheld? If so, try a tripod...

-js

Yes they were handheld, at 1/50 with IS is there still a risk of motion blur? I wouldn't say i'm unsteady, but have no frame of reference for it really!! :)

Oh, yeah: you asked about Av. It's the most useful mode, IMO. You should never need to go to the green box unless you're handing your camera to a novice.

-js

That's what i thought, I understand the effect of aperture, shutter speed, ISO etc. So i figure i'm ok to be let loose with Av :)

Where did you focus on the second shot? The wood grain looks pretty sharp.

How were you standing/holding the camera for the first shot? I think your focus plane is tilted so that in front of the cone looks in focus along with the very tips of the cone.

I suppose the post was about 5 feet high and i crouched down slightly (i'm 6ft 5) so i was pretty much head on, although i was above it

Could you elaborate on how you focus? You say you manually select the focusing point rather than recompose. Using the center focusing point will provide more accurate focusing than any other point.

Didn't realise the centre point was more accurate, for the second shot i composed the shot (as such) then changed the focus point to the one which would be at the centre of the flower head, which i believe it that case was the far right of the diamond. How would i have done it better? put the center AF point on the flower, half pressed, moved back to the position i took the shot in and fuly depressed it?


Thanks for the replies guys, i don't feel like giving up (yet!)

[number six]

Yes they were handheld, at 1/50 with IS is there still a risk of motion blur? I wouldn't say i'm unsteady, but have no frame of reference for it really!! :)

You're right, 1/50 with IS at 55 mm shouldn't show motion blur. And I don't see any in your picture.

IS is for side to side and up/down motion. I was talking about closer/further, which IS doesn't address. Photographers often sway a bit forward/backwards between focusing and tripping the shutter, giving a front- or back-focused result that's not the fault of the equipment. Hence my suggestion of a tripod for testing.

-js

[highbarger]

Yes they were handheld, at 1/50 with IS is there still a risk of motion blur?

With a close shot like this, you're more likely to have an issue with changing your focus point simply by leaning forward or backward slightly.


Edit: number six beat me to it... great minds...

[Duncan Frenz]

Didn't realise the centre point was more accurate, for the second shot i composed the shot (as such) then changed the focus point to the one which would be at the centre of the flower head, which i believe it that case was the far right of the diamond. How would i have done it better? put the center AF point on the flower, half pressed, moved back to the position i took the shot in and fuly depressed it?


Thanks for the replies guys, i don't feel like giving up (yet!)


The 20D has a high-precision cross-type sensor in the center position. It provides full cross-type performance with maximum apertures as small as f/5.6, yet it achieves up to 3 times the standard focusing precision when used with EF lenses featuring maximum apertures larger than or equal to f/2.8.

Yes, I would have useed the center focal point and recomposed if I was trying to achieve maximum sharpness.

[tonylong]

The 20D has a high-precision cross-type sensor in the center position. It provides full cross-type performance with maximum apertures as small as f/5.6, yet it achieves up to 3 times the standard focusing precision when used with EF lenses featuring maximum apertures larger than or equal to f/2.8.

Yes, I would have useed the center focal point and recomposed if I was trying to achieve maximum sharpness.

Well, but tht depends on how close he was and what his aperture was. Shooting close up by focus and recompose can be a disaster (as is rocking back and forth).

OP, you might want to grab a tripod and try shots like that taken with a very sturdy support (you can turn the IS off for this). If you are getting a slow shutter speed, Mirror Lockup and a cable release are also your friends.

Once you take some tripod-mounted shots, you should get a much better idea of what to expect, and have some comparison stuff to bounce your hand-held shots off of.

[sancho1983]

You're right, 1/50 with IS at 55 mm shouldn't show motion blur. And I don't see any in your picture.

IS is for side to side and up/down motion. I was talking about closer/further, which IS doesn't address. Photographers often sway a bit forward/backwards between focusing and tripping the shutter, giving a front- or back-focused result that's not the fault of the equipment. Hence my suggestion of a tripod for testing.

-js

With a close shot like this, you're more likely to have an issue with changing your focus point simply by leaning forward or backward slightly.


Edit: number six beat me to it... great minds...

Great minds think alike lol, i see what you mean now, will definitely bear that in mind, perhaps try something similar both with tripod and without. Thanks! :)

The 20D has a high-precision cross-type sensor in the center position. It provides full cross-type performance with maximum apertures as small as f/5.6, yet it achieves up to 3 times the standard focusing precision when used with EF lenses featuring maximum apertures larger than or equal to f/2.8.

Yes, I would have useed the center focal point and recomposed if I was trying to achieve maximum sharpness.

Will definitely do that too, is there a negative to doing it that way? Don't know why i don't really

[tzalman]

Will definitely do that too, is there a negative to doing it that way? Don't know why i don't really
Yes, if the camera to subject distance is short it can cause a missed focus. Read this
http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photography/focus-recompose_sucks.htm

[rral22]

If sharpness is the goal, the first thing to do is put the camera on a tripod. You will be astonished at how much a tripod will improve the quality of any lens, IS or no IS.

Once you have run several experiments on a tripod you will have a much more realistic impression of just how your lenses can work if you give them a chance.

[Jubilee32]

:pUsing a DoF calculator, if I am correct, at 5.6 and a focus point that is 3 feet away: your near and far points of focus are only about 1 inch either way. Your picture looks like the depth of focus is correct but it serves as a reminder that:

Be super careful choosing your focus point;
Do not lean one way or the other after focusing (an inch is almost nothing); and,
Make sure the plane of the sensor is parallel to the focus area you want - if you want the trunk in focue. make sure it is parallel to the sensor.

It never ceases to amaze me how tight DoF can be up close. At 10' focus distance the DoF is a foot either way. Even my weebles don't wobble that much

[sancho1983]

I was probably 30cm away!! so i'm guessing i wobbled, suppose a tripod is the answer, or larger aperture (number)

Thanks for the advice, will see how i get on at the weekend

[tonylong]

I was probably 30cm away!! so i'm guessing i wobbled, suppose a tripod is the answer, or larger aperture (number)

Thanks for the advice, will see how i get on at the weekend

Yeah, at 30cm you are so close that your DOF will be extremely shallow. Try shooting macros if you want to see how difficult it is to shoot at close distances, and why a tripod is pretty much mandatory. The tiniest movement will spoil it.

[sancho1983]

How quickly can you press the shutter fully? I know it might sound stupid but can you do it in a fluid movement? I half press, wait for the beep, then press, probably takes about a second in total, can i do it quicker?

[tonylong]

If you're in One Shot AF and your focus is with the shutter button, the camera won't take the shot unless you're focused. I believe if you press the shutter button fully, the camera will focus then fire. But you have to make sure you're focusing at the right place, which is why most people half-press and ensure their focus is where they want it.

Some people do this close-up wide aperture shooting in AI Servo when doing hand-held shooting so the camera has a chance to adjust to slight movement. But whatever way you do it, stay glued to your viewfinder and look out for the slightest shifts. I can also help to shoot a short burst in continuous mode to try for "the best" out of several.

[sancho1983]

Not really sure on the different focus modes, can someone explain them to me? and when i would use each?

AI Focus
AI Servo
One Shot

Again, sorry for stupid questions and thanks :)

[tonylong]

One Shot AF is, well, focus on one shot until you get focus lock and take it. It's generally good for still subjects.

AI Servo AF is designed to track moving objects. You will not get focus lock -- you typically have to activate focus (half-press or AF start) and hold it for a little bit until you achieve focus, then take the shot (you can shoot when not focused on your subject). It's often used in continuous mode to shoot a short burst of a moving subject, but you can just as well shoot in Single Shot. The camera tries to predict movement and adjust focus between shots.

AI Focus AF attempts to have the camera decide if you are shooting at a still subject or a moving subject, then automatically adjust between One Shot and AI Servo. I don't know of any real need for this mode and most shooters stay away from it, especially those of us who rely on AI Servo for tracking.

[Thalagyrt]

One Shot AF is, well, focus on one shot until you get focus lock and take it. It's generally good for still subjects.

AI Servo AF is designed to track moving objects. You will not get focus lock -- you typically have to activate focus (half-press or AF start) and hold it for a little bit until you achieve focus, then take the shot (you can shoot when not focused on your subject). It's often used in continuous mode to shoot a short burst of a moving subject, but you can just as well shoot in Single Shot. The camera tries to predict movement and adjust focus between shots.

AI Focus AF attempts to have the camera decide if you are shooting at a still subject or a moving subject, then automatically adjust between One Shot and AI Servo. I don't know of any real need for this mode and most shooters stay away from it, especially those of us who rely on AI Servo for tracking.

Ah man, to emphasize the AI Focus thing, at one NBA game I accidentally switched my camera into AI Focus without realizing it until after the game, and when I went into PP I found out that about 80% of my shots were out of focus. Stay away from it at all costs, period. It's horrendous.

[neilwood32]

One thing that may (or may not) be an issue is how hard you press the button esp at that distance. You can move the camera slightly without even noticing because of this.

Seriously , for close up work, a tripod is a must. And for ultimate sharpness, Mirror lock up and a remote shutter release are requirements.

[sancho1983]

One Shot AF is, well, focus on one shot until you get focus lock and take it. It's generally good for still subjects.

AI Servo AF is designed to track moving objects. You will not get focus lock -- you typically have to activate focus (half-press or AF start) and hold it for a little bit until you achieve focus, then take the shot (you can shoot when not focused on your subject). It's often used in continuous mode to shoot a short burst of a moving subject, but you can just as well shoot in Single Shot. The camera tries to predict movement and adjust focus between shots.

AI Focus AF attempts to have the camera decide if you are shooting at a still subject or a moving subject, then automatically adjust between One Shot and AI Servo. I don't know of any real need for this mode and most shooters stay away from it, especially those of us who rely on AI Servo for tracking.

Ah man, to emphasize the AI Focus thing, at one NBA game I accidentally switched my camera into AI Focus without realizing it until after the game, and when I went into PP I found out that about 80% of my shots were out of focus. Stay away from it at all costs, period. It's horrendous.

Thanks, no problem really in leaving it on one shot i suppose then?

One thing that may (or may not) be an issue is how hard you press the button esp at that distance. You can move the camera slightly without even noticing because of this.

Seriously , for close up work, a tripod is a must. And for ultimate sharpness, Mirror lock up and a remote shutter release are requirements.

I've taken a few shots in my light box, obviously with a tripod and a shutter release and they seem pretty sharp, so it's obviously not the lens i suppose

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/sancho_1983/bobbles.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/sancho_1983/IMG_4311.jpg

[tonylong]

One shot AF is fine as long as things aren't moving toward you or away from you -- it's you "standard" way of focusing. AI Servo is pretty necessary when you are tracking movement, though, unless you develop a good ability of your own to "predict" a moment and take it one shot at a time.

[sancho1983]

So would you use Servo when panning?

[tonylong]

I do, in fact, I have my cameras in Servo more often than not, because you can "lock" your focus just by letting off the focus button. This is especially useful if you move focus to a back button, but that's another matter.

But, yeah, since panning involves a moving object that implies that the object will be either coming closer to you relative to your initial plane of focus or moving away from that initial plane so AI Servo comes into play to attempt to track that movement.

[sandpiper]

How quickly can you press the shutter fully? I know it might sound stupid but can you do it in a fluid movement? I half press, wait for the beep, then press, probably takes about a second in total, can i do it quicker?

You can do it quicker with IS and AF turned off. If you are in MF and prefocused on the required distance you can shoot instantly.

AF requires a moment or two to acquire focus, this varies depending on how fast the particular lens focuses and also how close to the correct focusing the lens is to start off with. Obviously it takes longer to move from a focus setting of 5 ft to 50 ft, than it does 45ft to 50 ft, You can speed things up a bit by locking out the nearer end of the range with some lenses, so the lens doesn't try and focus at the close end.

If you have IS turned on though, you should allow time for the IS to spin up properly. This may well take significantly longer than it takes for the lens to focus. If the IS is still settling down when you take the shot, it may cause a little softness due to it's movements not being quite synchronised.

With IS and AF turned on, you are doing correctly by half pressing and waiting before taking the shot. If I am in a situation where things are happening and I am not sure when the 'right moment' will occur, I keep the button half-pressed, and the AF in AI servo mode, so that everything is up to speed and ready for me to take the shot instantly, when I want to, by simply pressing the rest of the way.



As for your other question about panning, yes AI servo is the mode you want as the distance between yourself and the subject will be changing (unless it is driving around you in an exact circle).

[rral22]

Some have alluded to separating focus and exposure, but I think it is a vital part of any real solutions to most of the problems discussed in this thread.

Set up the custom functions to put focus control to other than the shutter button. It is a powerful tool for managing all the variables people are discussing here. The prime example is in Servo mode it will allow the photographer to stop focus by just letting go of the button.

The combination of back button focus and Servo mode is one I love for that reason. It's just like one shot if you just let go of the button, and you can have servo by just holding it down.

[sancho1983]

Some have alluded to separating focus and exposure, but I think it is a vital part of any real solutions to most of the problems discussed in this thread.

Set up the custom functions to put focus control to other than the shutter button. It is a powerful tool for managing all the variables people are discussing here. The prime example is in Servo mode it will allow the photographer to stop focus by just letting go of the button.

The combination of back button focus and Servo mode is one I love for that reason. It's just like one shot if you just let go of the button, and you can have servo by just holding it down.

I'll be honest and say i didn't understand any of that :oops:

Don't know anything about custom functions?

[sandpiper]

I'll be honest and say i didn't understand any of that :oops:

Don't know anything about custom functions?

The custom functions are available in the menu, once selected you can scroll through a wide range of functions that set up the camera for different preferences. These include many useful adjustments which alter the actual picture taking, plus some which affect how you use the camera.

One of the latter is to change the auto-focusing from working when you half press the shutter release, to a button on the back of the camera. Once you have adjusted, this can give you more control over your focusing than the default setup.

[jac31k]

This might be going off on a tangent to the orignal topic, but in that visual vacations link that was posted on page one, the last paragraph summed up the "centre AFpoint focus and recompose" thing pretty well i thought

It is far better to use a less sensitive/less accurate autofocus sensor on the edge of the frame that will at least attempt to set the correct focus distance than to use the more accurate center sensor that is guaranteed to focus behind where you intended.