Problems with DPP and Photoshop

[wintoid]

I'm having a small problem with DPP, and I wonder if anyone has any insights. Here are the steps I follow:

1) DPP is set to use sRGB
2) Tickbox for "include ICC in file" is ticked.
3) Adjust image in DPP until it looks how I want it
4) Create JPEG from image.

If I then open the file in Photoshop, Photoshop detects that the file is sRGB and offers me the option to use the sRGB profile to display the file, which I select. It then looks completely different to how it looks in DPP.

If instead I open the file in Photoshop and tell it to ignore the colour profile information in the file, it looks exactly how it looks in DPP.

If I open the file in Internet Explorer, it looks exactly how it looks in DPP.

Is this a bug, or am I having a fundamental misunderstanding of how colour profiles work?

[Jesper]

Did you setup your monitor profile properly in DPP and Photoshop? If you say "If I open the file in Internet Explorer, it looks exactly how it looks in DPP", then it sounds like you did not tell DPP what your monitor profile is (you have to set it somewhere in the preferences).

Note that in non-colour managed applications such as Internet Explorer, images will always look slightly different than in colour managed applications such as DPP and PS.

If you don't have a monitor profile then you need to calibrate and profile your monitor first.

[wintoid]

Hi Jesper, thanks for your help.

I had Photoshop using the monitor profile, and I now have DPP using it too. As a result, the image now looks the same in Photoshop and DPP, but different in Internet Explorer. Internet Explorer is now the only package that has the image looking the way I want it to.

I've uploaded the image to http://simon.pietroni.co.uk/_MG_3353.JPG in case anyone wants to tell me where I've gone wrong.

[PacAce]

What color space was your camera set to?
What format did you shoot the image in, RAW or JPEG?

I downloaded the file and the image is in B&W? Is this the right file?

[wintoid]

I'm shooting RAW so I didn't think the camera's colour space mattered... does it?

The file is in B+W yes.

[PacAce]

I'm shooting RAW so I didn't think the camera's colour space mattered... does it?

The file is in B+W yes.
If you were shooting RAW, then, no, color space doesn't matter. That is why I also asked which format you were using since I did notice that your filename indicated the camera was set to Adobe RGB color space.

But now I'm confused. You were complaining about the color of your image. But the image is in B&W? What am I missing?

[wintoid]

When I accept the color profile, Photoshop shows it as a sandyish black and white, whereas when I reject the color profile, Photoshop shows it as much darker deeper blacks (perhaps slightly blue?). Internet Explorer also shows it as darker deeper blue.

[PacAce]

When I accept the color profile, Photoshop shows it as a sandyish black and white, whereas when I reject the color profile, Photoshop shows it as much darker deeper blacks (perhaps slightly blue?). Internet Explorer also shows it as darker deeper blue.
I think this is due to the way your monitor was calibrated and profiled as Jesper had suggested earlier. I think that "slightly blue" tint you were talking about is a dead giveaway to the fact that you probably do need to recalibrate your monitor.

FWIW, it does almost the same thing with my monitor here at work except the difference isn't as drastic. On PS7 the image displays a little dullish with the black not being as black and the white not being as white as the image displayed vie IE. But there is not hint of any tint on either of the images. My monitor here was "hand/eye" calibrated using Adobe Gamma so I know it's not perfectly calibrated.

[wintoid]

Leo, thanks very much for sticking with me on this... I'm not being contrary, but I'm still not quite understanding this.

What I want to achieve is to be able to produce images that will look the same in Internet Explorer as they do in Photoshop. My understanding was that IE would use sRGB as its colourspace, and that if I set sRGB as the ICC profile embedded in the JPG file, Photoshop would also use sRGB as its colourspace, and it should look identical.

Where does the monitor profile come into all this?

[PacAce]

Leo, thanks very much for sticking with me on this... I'm not being contrary, but I'm still not quite understanding this.

What I want to achieve is to be able to produce images that will look the same in Internet Explorer as they do in Photoshop. My understanding was that IE would use sRGB as its colourspace, and that if I set sRGB as the ICC profile embedded in the JPG file, Photoshop would also use sRGB as its colourspace, and it should look identical.

Where does the monitor profile come into all this?
Simon, before I answer that question, I'd like a little more detail on what you were doing so that I can be as precise with my answer as possible for your case without going into generalities.

I had Photoshop using the monitor profile, and I now have DPP using it too. As a result, the image now looks the same in Photoshop and DPP, but different in Internet Explorer. Internet Explorer is now the only package that has the image looking the way I want it to.

Can you explain what you meant by "I had Photoshop using the monitor profile"? How did you do that?

Also explain what you meant by "I now have DPP using it too". Again, how did you do that?

The reason I'm asking is because when I'm using PS or DPP, nowhere do I ever specify the monitor profiles in these programs. The only thing I ever specify is the working color space that I would like PS and DPP to use, which is either Adobe RGB or sRGB. So, depending on how or where you specified the monitor profile, the image that you were editing can come out differently when you convert it to a standard color space like sRGB.

[wintoid]

For Photoshop I went to Edit->Color Settings, and set my options like this. The Monitor RGB profile was created when I calibrated my monitor earlier this week using the software that came with my Samsung 193P monitor

[wintoid]

For DPP, I went Tools->Preferences->Color management and under "Color matching settings" I chose my monitor profile...

[wintoid]

But Leo, you're saying the image looks different to you in IE and Photoshop, so surely you're having the same problem, right?

[PacAce]

For Photoshop I went to Edit->Color Settings, and set my options like this. The Monitor RGB profile was created when I calibrated my monitor earlier this week using the software that came with my Samsung 193P monitor
OK, I'm going to analyze this a little later when I get home. In the mean time, did you know that you practically have color management turned off as indicated by your "Color Management Policies" in your Photoshop? I have mine set to "Preserve Embedded...". I'm not sure if it's going to make a difference but try setting yours the same way and see what happens.

And change the working space to sRGB instead of your monitor.

[wintoid]

Yes, that was the only way I could find to force Photoshop to ignore the sRGB profile when loading the JPG. The image thus loaded looks identical to how it looked in DPP and IE. I can't understand what useful purpose the embedded ICC serves.

Anyway, time for bed here in the UK, but I'm grateful for your help. I'll check on this thread in the morning. Night night!

[PacAce]

Simon, this is starting to give me a headache since I'm having a hard time keeping track of what settings you were using before when you first had the problem. When you made your first post about the problem, 1) was color management turned on in PS (I know it's not now). And 2) did you have your monitor profile specified as the working space?

Also, what monitor profile did Windows load? You can get this info by right clicking on any blank area on your desktop and selecting "Properties". When the Properties window comes up, click on the "Settings" tab. Then click on the Advanced button at the bottom of the window. Then click on the "Color Management" tab. Is what's specified as "Default monitor profile" the same as the profile for your current monitor (the one you specified in PS above)?

[wintoid]

Originally DPP was set to sRGB for color matching settings and for work color space, and Photoshop was set to sRGB for RGB working space. DPP was embedding the sRGB ICC in the JPEG, and it was looking different in Photoshop from in DPP.

Nothing has changed with the monitor profile, it has always been the sm193p.icm file which was created by the monitor's calibration software.

[PacAce]

Originally DPP was set to sRGB for color matching settings and for work color space, and Photoshop was set to sRGB for RGB working space. DPP was embedding the sRGB ICC in the JPEG, and it was looking different in Photoshop from in DPP.

Nothing has changed with the monitor profile, it has always been the sm193p.icm file which was created by the monitor's calibration software.
Simon, I'm not sure what to tell you. I've viewed your image on my PC with PSCS, DPP and Firefox and they all look very closely alike. Without scrutinizing the images it's really hard for me to tell if there are any differences in the images. All I can tell you is that everythings seems to point to your monitor profile either not being set up correctly or Windows isn't loading the correct profile. The reason I suspect the monitor is because you PSCS is not correctly converting the image from sRGB to the monitor profile. The web browser is not do color management so it will not convert the sRGB color space and just used the image as is. If the monitor were profiled correctly, it should very closely match the sRGB color space and you wouldn't be seeing the big color difference that you are seeing in the image.

Attached are screen prints of your image displayed side by side by the 3 different softwares on my machine.

[PacAce]

:lol: You know, after I posted the images, I noticed that the image on the left looks slightly different from the others when I view this page on my other monitor. It doesn't have a slight purplish tint to it that the others have. Is this what you were talking about? My main monitor does not show this slight tint in the images.

[wintoid]

Yes it was indeed what I was talking about. It's quite subtle.

However, the sandy appearance of the image in PSCS is anything but subtle...

[PacAce]

Are you saying that the same image appears like what you just posted above in PSCS? Something is definitely amiss there. But it's hard to tell where the fault lies since I really can't reproduce your problem on my system. My PSCS, DPP, FireFox, IE, Safari (I'm on a Mac), and even my image prieview program all display the image almost identically with no noticeable shift in color. Other than to repeat what I've already said, I'm at a loss to explain what's happening in your case.


BTW, about the slight purplish cast I was talking about on my other monitor? Well, it turns out that there's something wrong with that monitor. It doesn't seem to display colors consistent across the screen. Anything that I display on the right hand side of the screen comes out looking slightly purplish. If I move it to the left hand side, the color is OK.

[wintoid]

Hehe the plot thickens.

If I load the image into Photoshop, take a screenshot using ctrl-printscreen, paste that into a new file, take a screenshot using ctrl-printscreen, paste that into a new file, etc etc, the image gets sandier and sandier.

It's driving me nuts, but I also slightly need to be able to forget about it, or I won't take pictures (if you know what I mean). I'm changing my graphics card tomorrow hopefully, so I'll be connecting to the monitor using DVI, and I will re-profile my monitor at that point. Maybe something will change... I'll keep you posted.

[PacAce]

Hehe the plot thickens.

If I load the image into Photoshop, take a screenshot using ctrl-printscreen, paste that into a new file, take a screenshot using ctrl-printscreen, paste that into a new file, etc etc, the image gets sandier and sandier.

Yup, that's what usually happens when there's something wrong with the monitor profile or the correct one isn't loaded.


It's driving me nuts, but I also slightly need to be able to forget about it, or I won't take pictures (if you know what I mean). I'm changing my graphics card tomorrow hopefully, so I'll be connecting to the monitor using DVI, and I will re-profile my monitor at that point. Maybe something will change... I'll keep you posted.
Sounds like a great idea. I hope that clears things up for you. Good luck.

[wintoid]

Hey Leo, I solved the problem. Thanks so much for your assistance. Here's the skinny on what had happened....

When you run Adobe Gamma, it asks you to pick a profile as a starting point, such as sRGB. When it saves the profile, it seems to default to saving the new profile over the top of the old sRGB profile!

I deinstalled Photoshop and reinstalled it, which reinstalled the original sRGB profile, and now I can set Photoshop to sRGB, load the DPP JPG with the sRGB embedded profile, and it looks the same as it does in Internet Explorer! Woohoo!

Thanks once again for all your help!

[PacAce]

Hey Leo, I solved the problem. Thanks so much for your assistance. Here's the skinny on what had happened....

When you run Adobe Gamma, it asks you to pick a profile as a starting point, such as sRGB. When it saves the profile, it seems to default to saving the new profile over the top of the old sRGB profile!

I deinstalled Photoshop and reinstalled it, which reinstalled the original sRGB profile, and now I can set Photoshop to sRGB, load the DPP JPG with the sRGB embedded profile, and it looks the same as it does in Internet Explorer! Woohoo!

Thanks once again for all your help!
Good stuff! Glad you finally figured it out. Yup,clobbering the standard sRGB would really wreck havoc on your color management for sure. :D

[IainB]

Wintoid, now that you are sorted, maybe you can clarify something for me! In PS, is the color management turned off? I have been having very similar problems so now I'm trying to untangle myself. I followed Paceace's steps and the monitor (right click on desktop..) is set to sRGB. PS is set to sRGB, pushbutton on the front of my Philips monitor is set to 6500 temp (for 'editing images') Should PS be set to color management 'off'? Others may be willing to comment.

[PacAce]

Wintoid, now that you are sorted, maybe you can clarify something for me! In PS, is the color management turned off? I have been having very similar problems so now I'm trying to untangle myself. I followed Paceace's steps and the monitor (right click on desktop..) is set to sRGB. PS is set to sRGB, pushbutton on the front of my Philips monitor is set to 6500 temp (for 'editing images') Should PS be set to color management 'off'? Others may be willing to comment.
Your monitor profile in Windows should not be set to sRGB. It should be set to the actual profile that was generated for your monitor when you calibrated it. If you did not calibrate the monitor, then it should be set to the generic profile appropriate for you monitor, if one is available although it's highly recommended that you do calibrate the monitor even if you have to do it with Adobe Gamma.

And, yes, PS should be set for color management.

[wintoid]

Actually, the plot has thickened. I had to reinstall some stuff just now, and it asked me for the colour profile for my monitor from the monitor CDROM (file is called SM193P.ICM). Once Windows was set to use that monitor profile, everything went wrong again. The only way stuff looks right (to me), is when Windows has no monitor profile! In that circumstance, I can set PS to use colour management (sRGB) and everything is fine.

[IainB]

Thanks Wintoid. I'll take time later to study your comments and relate them to my setup. Who said digital was easy?
Cheers!

[Lamb Chop]

Have read a few threads here at P.O.T.N, and was motivated to post my findings. I hail from Sydney Australia, bought a 5D a couple of months back, very amazed with this camera.

I have just experienced an identical problem to the above, and have found my solution, after a few days of tearing my hair out, might be worth mentioning. I was poking around in Adobe Gamma in the control panel, (windows machine)

After clicking on Adobe Gamma in the control panel, instead of choosing the step by step wizard, I chose the 'control panel' option. I noticed in following this path, that my 'Phosphers' were set to HDTV (CCIR 709)

I went back to Adobe Gamma to follow the wizard calibration in an attempt to try an re-cal the thing (once again) in the hope it may work, (don't have any hardware to calibrate screen BTW). During the cal I saw that the default setting for the phosphers was 'custom'. I changed this to HDTV (CCIR 709) and YEEHAA....! It worked!