Money question, but...

[mbellot]

I'm intentionally not posting this the the "Pro" forum because of the general (negative) attitude towards "low" pricing.

I hope to get an honest cross section of parent/family opinion without the "giving it away" lecture.

I'm a parent myself and this whole thing started because I took (good) pictures of my daughters' dance recitals. Its grown from that in to a couple other events by word of mouth, but its strictly part time more hobby than job type work. Its also 100% speculative, I only get paid for actual orders, no "up front" money.

As such, and because the main reason I shoot is so others can enjoy the photos, I have 4x6 prints (IMHO) pretty reasonably priced at $2 each and larger prints (5x7 $6, 8x10 $10) still low by most "pro" opinions.

The new dilemma I am faced with is requests for digital images. I have avoided the issue by not making them available up to now, but more and more I'm getting emails asking to just pay for image files (supposedly for digital scrap booking, but there is no real control over the use once the file is out there).

So, given the above pricing, what do you think would be some reasonable price points for 1mp and 4mp images? Or should I just continue to not offer files?

FWIW - I was blown away to find out that many labs consider a 1mp image sufficient for printing an 8x10 (yeech!).

[PhotosGuy]

not posting this the the "Pro" forum because of the general (negative) attitude towards "low" pricing. If you just "shoot is so others can enjoy the photos,", then what's the problem if "there is no real control over the use once the file is out there"? Anyone can scan a print, so you have no control anyway. Since they don't cost you anything extra, just give the files away as your almost doing with the prints. But it's just going to make you wait longer to add to your equipment if you're counting on print sales to pay for equipment, right? ;)

[Haru]

If you just "shoot is so others can enjoy the photos,", then what's the problem if "there is no real control over the use once the file is out there"? Anyone can scan a print, so you have no control anyway. Since they don't cost you anything extra, just give the files away as your almost doing with the prints. But it's just going to make you wait longer to add to your equipment if you're counting on print sales to pay for equipment, right? ;)

Agreed, if you are doing this for fun, then just give them away. All the time and expense of running around and paying for prints is gone if you email them to people.

However, if this is kinda "a little extra money on the side" thing, then i would say charge $2-$5 for a hi-res image. I woudln't limit them to 1-4mp for a different price, people like things simple, and it is no skin off your butt to give them hi-res. In fact you will spend less time resizing everything. With hi-res you will also ensure that if someone gets the bright idea to make 20x30 poster of little sussy, then they won't come freaking out to you when that 1mp image looks like 8-bit mario.

[Wilt]

Keep in mind the media cost for copying files, and the mailing costs associated with mailing the files. If you send via email, you at least avoid that overhead and extra work for yourself to respond to requests for digital files.

If you are not depriving a pro of his/her established revenue stream, you can do as you please on the pricing! If you have a way to 'burn' copyright into the EXIF of a photo, that provides you with a degree of protection not afforded by no EXIF information...do you have your camera body set up to embed your name at time of making the shot?

Remember you could be investing significant amount of time and effort even for servicing the requests for the digital file, and you should at least be compensated for that, not literally 'free' after all!

[20droger]

Even though you are doing this for fun and not profit, there are two valid reasons for not giving things away for free:

First, people value that which they pay for, and do not value what they get for free. If you give your images away for nothing, then people will come to think that your time and effort is worth nothing. This is not fair to you.

Second, your time and effort do have value. If you give the images away for free, you will personally be losing money each and every time. Do not give yourself away.

Always remember, everything, has value.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. If the sign says "free lunch," you know they put bigger heads on the beer! The lunch has to be paid for somehow.

[mbellot]

Since they don't cost you anything extra, just give the files away as your almost doing with the prints.

Precisely the type of comment I was trying to avoid by staying out of the Pro forum. Thanks.

But it's just going to make you wait longer to add to your equipment if you're counting on print sales to pay for equipment, right? ;)

Yes and no. I made almost $1500 last year at my "almost giving them away" prices. Certainly not enough to retire, but it does help pay for gear.

All the time and expense of running around and paying for prints is gone if you email them to people.

Non-issue. I have a SmugMug Pro account, prints are delivered directly to the buyer.

However, if this is kinda "a little extra money on the side" thing, then i would say charge $2-$5 for a hi-res image. I woudln't limit them to 1-4mp for a different price, people like things simple, and it is no skin off your butt to give them hi-res. In fact you will spend less time resizing everything.

Keep in mind the media cost for copying files, and the mailing costs associated with mailing the files.

No media or delivery costs, the 1mp and 4mp "restrictions" are what SM offer as automatic low and high resolution digital downloads (if I enable them). The resizing is handled by them at the time of order.

If you are not depriving a pro of his/her established revenue stream, you can do as you please on the pricing!

My attitude on that is very bi-polar. Regardless of whether or not a Pro has an "established" revenue stream they are my pictures and I can price them any way I like. That said, I am very cognizant of such issues, the industry I'm in for my day job (electrical engineering) has been virtually wiped out but lowballers in China and India. Regardless, there is no established pro, in all but one case I'm the only thing going. The one where that wasn't the case there were just a bunch of parents who collected files and shared them from a common Shutterfly account. They were all P&S images with flash use, utterly destroying the stage lighting.

Remember you could be investing significant amount of time and effort even for servicing the requests for the digital file, and you should at least be compensated for that, not literally 'free' after all!

I do invest a fair amount of time already. Between just shooting and the PP work (minimal in most cases) I'm generally in for at least 10-15 hours time. That was one of the reasons I went with SmugMug, it off-loads a lot of the sales aspects and allows me to just take photos.

Even though you are doing this for fun and not profit, there are two valid reasons for not giving things away for free:

Even though you are doing this for fun and not profit, there are two valid reasons for not giving things away for free:

First, people value that which they pay for, and do not value what they get for free. If you give your images away for nothing, then people will come to think that your time and effort is worth nothing. This is not fair to you.

Second, your time and effort do have value. If you give the images away for free, you will personally be losing money each and every time. Do not give yourself away.

I don't give anything away totally free, although the pro's no doubt view my pricing as virtually the same thing. Funny thing, I actually dropped my 4x6 price $1 (from $3 to $2) and sales nearly quadrupled. On top of that people started ordering the larger prints more often even though those prices hadn't been reduced. I liken it to the ebay flim-flam of $0.01 opening bids, people think they are getting a deal so they tend to spend more...


My concern is that I don't want to completely cannibalize print sales. To Haru's point, I had already mentioned that many labs will print a 1mp image as large as 8x10. The quality has got to be dreadful, but I would be willing to wager that given the option to download the file for (pick a low number) and printing crappy looking photos at WalMart for the whole family, many people would do that rather than paying $10 each for an 8x10 printed from the 6mp file stored on SmugMug.

I understand the desire for digital images, several mom's say they are "digital" scrap bookers and scan prints to accommodate their hobby. Technically wrong, but if its truly just for personal use in a computerized scrap book I'm OK with it.

I appreciate the comments, now that there is a fair bit more information on the subject does anyone have an idea for price points? If not, I'm probably just going to stick with the current "no digital images" policy.

Thanks.

[Haru]

Well considering that your clients are comfortable with $2 for 4x6 prints and your next highest price is $6, i was start at $4 for the "high res" versions. It will probably cut into your larger print sales, but if the parents just enjoy having 4x6 to throw in scrap books then they still may opt for that.

Your print sales seem to be doing fine though and like you said, it is paying for the gear. You could offer digital copies of pictures parents pruchase if they spend "X" amount or buy "Y" number of 8x10's. That probably isn't something smugmug can handle but it could be a solution to the moms asking for digital copies while keeping all your sales print based. It would mean more buisness work on your end though.

[mbellot]

Well considering that your clients are comfortable with $2 for 4x6 prints and your next highest price is $6, i was start at $4 for the "high res" versions. It will probably cut into your larger print sales, but if the parents just enjoy having 4x6 to throw in scrap books then they still may opt for that.

I was actually thinking $3-$4 for the low res image. Its enough for any real digital (unprinted) scrap book or to get reasonable quality 4x6 prints (maybe even 5x7, I'm going to run a couple through CostCo as a test) for cost anywhere they want to go.

That way its about break even for the parents at two copies, cheaper for anything more.

Your print sales seem to be doing fine though and like you said, it is paying for the gear. You could offer digital copies of pictures parents pruchase if they spend "X" amount or buy "Y" number of 8x10's. That probably isn't something smugmug can handle but it could be a solution to the moms asking for digital copies while keeping all your sales print based. It would mean more buisness work on your end though.

It would be nice if SM offered that feature, but they don't as of now.

I suppose it would be possible to directly email files to anyone buying prints that exceeded a dollar amount, but you're right, it would add work load that I'm not sure I have time for right now.

Good feedback, thank you very much.

[yogestee]

When I was in College studying Commercial Photography the Business teacher always told us never under any circumstances prostitute yourself (these were his exact words).. I have always lived by his words making a good living out of photography for nearly 30 years..

Late last year I was asked to cover a Business Association Ball here in Laos.. I asked them to write a cheque for 100USD to my favourite NGO COPE..

http://www.copelaos.org/index.html

Also all money raised from the photo sales was to go to COPE.. In total I raised 310USD.. How did I feel?? The best money I have never spent!!

I also shot their fund raising concert for free.. http://www.pbase.com/jurgentreue/cope&page=all

Sometimes there is more enjoyment out of photography than just making money..