Choosing LCD

[Pekka]

Because my old Eizo is showing signs of retirement in color and contrast department I have done a lot of research about TFT monitors. In short, I decided to go for two 19" screens instead of one big one (2560x2048 desktop), and in those the best choice seems (within normal budget) to be Samsung 193P. There are not many real reviews about LCD's from photographer's perspective but this one is fairly informative: http://www.pcunleash.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=MyItemReview&no=51 and also http://www.ipkonfig.com/cms/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=29&limit=1&limitstart=0 . Usually the reviewers do not really know what to review and they amost never see good grayscale and color space reproduction more important than gaming speed. The differences are not even clear to manufacturers, I called Samsung to ask what is the real difference and target group between 910T and 193P and they could not really say any! Only thing I got out was that 193P has zero defective pixel warranty, slightly better grayscale reproduction and slightly wider viewing angle. Information like color gamut is not available, although tests in Finnish magazines show that Samsungs cover sRGB fine.

193P seems to benefit a lot from calibration. See http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20040326/lcd-04.html

I haven't made up my mind yet. Samsung announced 193P Plus in Cebit and it has again better contrast and 8m speed (they'll have 4ms models, too). Is newer better? In LCD's it may not be. Samsung told me that if the speed is fast, image quality will suffer - it's a compromise.

Another choice would also be to get highly rated 21" Samsung 213T (1600x1200) http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=NB21BSAS and then some extra cheap 17" for tools.

Has anyone compared Samsung 910T and 193P side by side in photo editing usage? How are colors and grayscales in 910T? How does Monitortest perform ( http://www.passmark.com/products/monitortest.htm )?

Some Finnish prices:
Samsung 193P is 547 €.
Samsung 910T is 420 €.
Samsung 213T is 905 €.

What about other choices? Widescreen? has anyone used http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-4221&link_number=

[tim]

I can't offer a comparison, but I recently got a 910T and it's a great monitor. Make sure you have a large desk, you're going to want a bit of distance between you and screens that big.

btw my priority was color reproduction, using DVI, and games after that. Even with it's 25ms refresh speed games are fine, I rarely notice any problems.

[toddb]

You got to go wide screen...it's so much better (IMHO). I got the Dell 2005FPW (20" widescreen). Had really good contrast, really fast refresh for both white and grey pixels and brightness was....bright compared to my 18" viewsonic VX800. Worlds apart from that LCD. The only problem was that I asked for a replacement and the second two had slightly different color and I liked the first one the best (had some backlight issues which is only noticable if you watch you widescreen movies). So since the replacements where not working 100% I asked for more money back and they gave me another $75 after finding a $100 cupon. So really it was a pretty good deal and I'm really happy with it. The only problem now is that everyone else has bad monitors so when I correct my images, other monitor's just don't do my images justice, lol.

Wasn't someone just talking about a new 24" widescreen from Dell. I believe the guts are LG so if you can live with the Dell branding, it's not too bad. I mainly got it for coding purposes and doing video work as well, but turns out widescreen really gives you apps room that have allot of little floating toolbars such as Photoshop and great for video work and even better for coding (because you can see two pages side by side pretty easily).

Worth checking out.


Update:
Spec is brightness 300cd/m^2 and contrast at 600:1
12 millisecond response time (read in another report that this just isn't for white pixel change but also for grey which is harder to get). Great for games! In fact, another cool thing about this display is that you can set it to run 1:1 pixels (for example, you can run your game in 1024x768 and it will be that pixel size on the screen and not stretched out causing allot of distortion and artifacting. I played HalfLife2 this way and it was great.)



I just checked Dell's site and they are really cheep now: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-4111&category_id=4009
Make sure you video card can support the res.

[wintoid]

I've recently got a 193P. From my perspective, when there's noise in the background of an image, it shows up much much more on the 193P than it did on my old Iiyama CRT. Noise really looks like individual pixels etc, whereas when you print an image, the printer dithers it of course, and it's really not a problem. I'm starting to understand why some people swear by CRTs for photo work.

[Pekka]

I've recently got a 193P. From my perspective, when there's noise in the background of an image, it shows up much much more on the 193P than it did on my old Iiyama CRT. Noise really looks like individual pixels etc, whereas when you print an image, the printer dithers it of course, and it's really not a problem. I'm starting to understand why some people swear by CRTs for photo work.

Have you tried to put brightness to 30-40% as said in http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20040326/lcd-04.html ?

[wintoid]

I have the brightness at 17% because I find the glare from a bright LCD a bit hard on my eyes, but also because when I calibrated the monitor, that's what seemed best to see all the blacks and all the whites.

[Jesper]

What about other choices? Widescreen? has anyone used http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-4221&link_number=
The Dell UltraSharp 2405 FPW.... I have ordered one, but haven't got it yet, I expect it to be delivered coming Monday !!! :D

Here is some interesting information on different types of LCD screens, also with info about which types are best at reproducing colour: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html

When you get a high resolution LCD screen, you need a video card that can deliver a good DVI signal. Here's some info about the different types of DVI connectors (yes, it's not that simple... there are different types of DVI...): http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041129/index.html

Here is a review of the Dell UltraSharp 2405 FPW: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1764466,00.asp

[radar-eclipse]

Dude, I mean Pekka, how come your not replacing your Eizo with a NEW Eizo? Their among the best if not the best. I just got a Lacie 321 which is suppose to rival Eizo performance. I absolutely love it! Purchased it from B&H photo for $1599. It was a lot more than I wanted to spend, but so was my Imacon scanner. This Samsung crap isn't linear enough for photography. The TV world doesn't cut it in photography in my opinion. Sorry, but Dell should stick to $400 pc's.

[chtgrubbs]

NEC have a new monitor designed for graphics. You might want to look at this review:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=919

[foxbat]

The Dell UltraSharp 2405 FPW.... I have ordered one, but haven't got it yet, I expect it to be delivered coming Monday !!!
I'm getting one of these too, do you know anything about how to calibrate the colour correctly? I don't think it comes with any colour profiling kit.

[radar-eclipse]

The NEC Spectraview 2180 looks just like the LaCie I recommended. The LaCie came with some color profiles, but you need to invest a few dollars in a setup that specializes in it to be serious like Colorvision Spyder Pro, Gretagbeth, Monaco, etc.

[Jesper]

I'm getting one of these too, do you know anything about how to calibrate the colour correctly? I don't think it comes with any colour profiling kit.No, it does not come with any colour profiling kit. The Dell 2405 is not being sold as a graphics pro screen, and most customers who just play games, watch DVD's etc. with their computer won't need colour profiling hardware. I already have a Spyder, so when I get my 2405 I'm going to try to calibrate and profile it with the Spyder.

Mine was supposed to be delivered last Monday, but every day when I look on Dell's website the delivery date has shifted a day later. Today it says 12 April...... :( :rolleyes: Waiting, waiting..... On another (Dutch) website with forums, I read that a lot of people ordered that Dell screen, so probably Dell now has trouble to produce enough of them for everybody (at least in the part of the world where I live).

[flowe]

Refering to Pekka's original proposition with 2 Samsung SyncMaster 193P LCDs.
About the Samsungs – and for those that aren’t going for SuperWide:

The top German magazine Chip at present rates the 194T (available since Jan. 05) as having the absolutely best image quality of all tested 19" LCDs currently available. Chip assigned it 100% for image quality, with one at 92% and about 25 others between 87 and 63%. One year ago, 100% for image quality applied to the 193P, which fell in the meantime to 82%.

The 194T and 193P having the same Samsung built S-PVA panel made me ring up the product manager. He explained this with board and panel improvements within one year – not unlikely.

The 194T has a very slim frame. While the 193P had an external Powersupply and a software utility replacing the control buttons, the 194T has buttons and internal PS back again. The 194T has two DVI-I ports with quick change capability. This is advertised for stock traders, but wouldn't interfere with operation in a stand alone operation. The 194T with <25ms appears as a little slower than the 193P with <20ms – might support that slower is better for image quality?

The street price in Switzerland for the 194T is about 880 CHF eq. 570 EUR or 730 USD.

[radar-eclipse]

Can you find a link to the article by chance?

[flowe]

All in German of course.
Current summary table - may change as time goes by:
http://www.chip.de/perl/tpdb/tpdb_out.pl?db=out&partid=614092
Image quality 194T: 100%, 193P 87%
Error on my part: image quality 193P now 87%, not 82% as mentioned before - sorry.
No detailed report on 194T traceable on site.
To see whole table, click on "alle" at bottom left.

July 2004 report on 193P:
http://www.chip.de/artikel/c1_artikel_12832931.html
where it is said that 193P had the best image quality within test, but missed top position only because of the missing control buttons.

[KennyG]

Pekka, the number one LCD monitor manufacturer in Europe is Acer. They leave Dell, Samsung, and the like a long way behind. They have a new range coming out in a couple of months and it could be worth the wait. I have been evaluating one of these new models with what they refer to as a CrystalBright layer and it simply leaves the rest for dead. Probably the best LCD I have ever seen and well up to the best of CRT technology.

[Markscott]

Dear Forum members:
I am thinking of buying the Del Ultrasharp 2405FPW LCD monitor. Let me know what you think of it once you buy it. Thanks.

Mark

[Avalonthas]

In fact, another cool thing about this display is that you can set it to run 1:1 pixels (for example, you can run your game in 1024x768 and it will be that pixel size on the screen and not stretched out causing allot of distortion and artifacting. I played HalfLife2 this way and it was great.)


I agree with you that the Dell lineup of LCd widescreen monitors (heck even the regular ones) are great monitors, especially with a small amount of calibration. Although i gotta correct ya on one thing. Its not called 1:1, its called the 4:3 aspect ratio hehe, the one typically used a regular sized monitor or television. As 1024 is 4/3 of 768. :):):). And the Widescreen aspect ratio is 16:9, or 9:16 if u flip it around hehe. Although u should look into the widescreen resolution as HL2 and many other modern games support widescreen monitors. I dont personally use widescreen resolution, but i use the extra space with a custom program to show game info on the right side and chat on the left side where it is typically black strips. So far I have designed it to track in game stats so below the game info (server info) I have readouts of remaining players and it takes the first and second most used guns they used in the game, and it also calculates there aggressiveness based on kills based on time limits, with a special formula a developed. [EX: CrazyKid, M4A1 Carbine, HE Grenade, Very aggressive, (50,3), 5.76mins]. Its neat and helps alot, it makes it feel like a Swat game. Basically that is the extend of what I can accomplish as I can only use data that the console displays otherwise i would have to use data collected by the server database or server stats program which is not allowed under the Terms of Service, considered hacking. Back to photography, the Widescreen monitors arw a benefit for 3 main reasons for me anyways:

1) I can view POTN much easier in vertical mode, can view twice the amount of posts without scrolling. YAY! :)

2) When viewing large shots you can almost view them in there entirety (except for shots with a huge huge huge height) No problem though as u can slightly zoom out. Also Photoshop has alot of tools and options so u can stick em all to one side and still have plenty of room

3) Viewing panorama shots is brilliant. You can usually fit a good sized post processed panorama shot on the screen

3)b) Then theres always the advantages it has to games and movies but that another topic.

[radar-eclipse]

Anyone know what Ausstattung means? It is from the German review that Flowe posted.
Kenny, how is Acer number one in Europe? I just find it hard to believe. A computer manufacturer like Dell doesn't make monitors or LCD's. They buy stuff from the orient typically.
Any more views out there from other experienced in graphics not the gaming community. Sorry, don't want to offend anyone, just trying to get a rise out of someone to step up with an experienced opinion.

[Jesper]

Ausstattung: my native language isn't German, but I think that in this case they mean the finish, the design, how it looks.

There are only a very few manufacturers of LCD panels in the world. I think Dell gets its LCD panels from Samsung.

[toddb]

Although i gotta correct ya on one thing. Its not called 1:1, its called the 4:3 aspect ratio hehe, the one typically used a regular sized monitor or television.

I didn't mean aspect ratio, sorry for the confusion. What I meant to say was you can set the "scaling" in three different ways.

1. 1:1
2. Fill
3. Aspect

First meaning that if you are displaying 1024x768, it uses one physical pixel for every pixel to be displayed. Fill will stretch the content out, so if you were in a 4:3 aspect people look really fat. Aspect will keep the aspect of what your displaying which most likely mean you'll have black bars on the sides.

The reason I like 1:1 is because you don't get any kind of pixel distortion. Just as it always looks better at "native" resolution on LCD then an alternative res. So when my game starts, the screen gets smaller (but still big) and it looks very sharp and clear.

It's not that games don't support widescren res, it's just that the video cards won't push it fast enough to get high enough framerates.

[flowe]

Ausstattung: Jesper is about right, but included are features like ports, control buttons, vertical adjustment and pivot options, USB hub and version, box content etc. A high rating just means rich and up-to-date features, for details see manufactureres specs. Eg. the Samsung 193P has been downrated because of the omitted control buttons, reappearing with the 194T and a higher rating.

Panels: the table at http://www.chip.de/perl/tpdb/tpdb_o...t&partid=614092 (http://www.chip.de/perl/tpdb/tpdb_out.pl?db=out&partid=614092) is interactive and can be reshuffled to personal preference. You can select panel maker and technology too. Out of the 26 units listed, 9 have Samsung panels (7 of them within the first 10, including NEC, ADI and Viewsonic). 2 more are LG, one each Fujitsu and Hyundai and 13 unknown, including the only Acer entry. I got the impression that Samsung today is the largest panel maker as well as selling heavily under the own name - a lot at stake. Acer? no idea. The Chip table to me seems trustworthy, but only rather limited information.

[radar-eclipse]

It kind of seems that the test is more about ergonomics (looks and layout), features, build quality and servicability. They didn't do a color test or profiling and actually compare them technically.

[flowe]

...features, build quality and servicability...:D :lol: That's the trouble with languages: German "Bild" is image, not build, and "Bildqualität" is image quality. And we can be assured that all tests with latest technology have been executed, if only because of the severe competition between a handful of top German magazines!

[Pekka]

It kind of seems that the test is more about ergonomics (looks and layout), features, build quality and servicability. They didn't do a color test or profiling and actually compare them technically.

Yes I would like to see
- maximum color space (in relation to sRGB)
- how the monitor responds to calibration (can it be done 100% ?)
- are gradients smooth after calibration?
- does manufacturer exchange monitor which has one dead pixel?

I could not care less for speed, ergonomics (how ofter you move or adjust it?) or documentation.

[dbump]

Pekka,
I followed this thread when it was fresh, and just came back to see if there'd been an update to it, since I'm looking at LCD's again. What model did you choose? Any comments?

Thanks!

[Pekka]

I bought two 19" Eizo F768's, they are calibrated to 6500K (with 39/100 brightness - this is vital!) with SpyderPro. I am very happy with them! Black is not perfect but good enough - colors are excellent. I got three years onsite (1 hot pixel) warranty without extra cost.

[UncleDoug]

I bought two 19" Eizo F768's, they are calibrated to 6500K (with 39/100 brightness - this is vital!) with SpyderPro. I am very happy with them! Black is not perfect but good enough - colors are excellent. I got three years onsite (1 hot pixel) warranty without extra cost.

Got a quick question.
What reasoning do you use comming to the decision to calibrate your monitor to D65?