Should I just sell everything?

[MikeKy55]

I really am the type to stay with something until I get it figured out. But I don't seem to be getting anywhere. Would someone please look at the attached picture and tell me what 'all' I'm doing wrong? Maybe a basic outline on how to set the camera and how to take the picture is in order. I'm beginning to feel really stupid here. Thanks for any suggestions. I cropped this. If I removed the data, let me know and I will import it.

[MikeKy55]

Well I just figured out one rather large error. I had the WB set to 'tungsten'...WRONG for the lights I was under.

[matonanjin]

If you correst the white balance, it isn't going to be that bad. Did you shoot in RAW to where you can correct WB.

Looks like you had high enough shutter speed to stop action. To do that you had to have high ISO. You can apply some noise reduction if you find the noise objectionable.

After you apply NR you might then apply a curves adjustment in LR or PS. That will help. But it really isn't bad. You just can't expect too much shooting indoors w/o flash.

[bmitch]

The exif is gone, so can you give us some idea of how you shot it?

[MikeKy55]

Thanks. The shutter was high in this particular shot, but the light was different everywhere I shot and I was trying to keep the shutter speed about 500 to stop the action. So, this was a little faster than needed. Shot in jpeg by the way.
I'm going to be shooting again tomorrow under different lighting (different venue) and I will likely be using the 85 1.8 rather than the 50.

Camera Model Name
Canon EOS 30D
Shooting Date/Time
2/28/2009 11:06:58 AM
Shooting Mode
Aperture-Priority AE
Photo Effect Mode
Off
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/1000
Av( Aperture Value )
2.5
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
3200
Lens
50.0mm
Focal Length
50.0mm
Image Size
3504x2336
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
Off
White Balance
Tungsten
AF Mode
Continuous AF
Parameters
Tone Curve Standard
Sharpness level 3
Color tone Normal
Color Space
sRGB
Color Matrix
129
Noise reduction
Off
File Size
4343KB
Drive Mode
Low-speed continuous shooting

[herbe_nelson]

yeah exif is missing. Looks like missed focus and low ISO. Crank up the ISO!

I am assuming that this was taken with the 50 1.8? That is a lens that isn't exactly known for its AF speed. If it wasn't taken with the 50mm then you will struggle with enough light with your other lenses. That is except the 85mm. Use that lens as it's a great indoor performer.

Really need the exif to be able to make a better judgement.

[herbe_nelson]

haha posted at the same time.

Ok. First suggestion is to shoot RAW. This will give a lot more PP headroom. Secondly, use Manual mode if you are in a situation like this. Although you may get the flicker of the lights refreshing in some shots, you are going to get much more consistent results. Thirdly, nail down the exposure early and then stick to it. Maybe use Av mode and chimping to get what looks alright on the back of the camera. Once you have the settings selected, put them into Manual and don't change them!

Judging from your exif this is how I would approach the next photos in this gym: M mode, aperture f2 or f1.8, centre AF point. ISO 3200, shutter speed 1/1250 or 1/1600, RAW, 5 fps, 85mm 1.8 lens, AiServo.

By using Manual mode you are taking the AE sensor out of the equation and putting you back into control. In situation like this the AE sensor will likely want to slow the shutter speed down to expose correctly for the black uniforms. But then as soon as you stray slightly from the player, the grey wall will cause a faster shutter speed to be calculated.

Have a think about the settings that I suggested and see if they make any noticeable difference next time around.

All the best

[polarbare]

shoot tight, crop tighter as well.

[Zoodles]

All good suggestions; I might even suggest centre spot for AF - since in this pic the player no.23 is in focus rather than the player with the ball who you should have been focussed on...
Really important as suggested earlier, to pre-expose before the game to get the settings you want dialled in and then stay there for 1st half and re-check for 2nd half...
Don't give up - keep at it, you're close to getting it down...

[MikeKy55]

Great suggestions guys. Thanks. I will be giving it another go tomorrow and will report back in this thread. I really think I should be able to do this :oops:.
I do worry about trying to get into RAW processing at this point as the other issues are sticking points. I think I will stick to the jpeg for the time being. Once I get a grip on this, I want to start learning the RAW so as to have some flexibility.

[4Bucks]

You have much less flexibility in jpeg than in RAW... FYI.

[MikeKy55]

You have much less flexibility in jpeg than in RAW... FYI.

I understand, thanks. I just want to get passed the first hurtle then move on to the next.

[matonanjin]

haha posted at the same time.

Ok. First suggestion is to shoot RAW. This will give a lot more PP headroom. Secondly, use Manual mode if you are in a situation like this. Although you may get the flicker of the lights refreshing in some shots, you are going to get much more consistent results. Thirdly, nail down the exposure early and then stick to it. Maybe use Av mode and chimping to get what looks alright on the back of the camera. Once you have the settings selected, put them into Manual and don't change them!

Judging from your exif this is how I would approach the next photos in this gym: M mode, aperture f2 or f1.8, centre AF point. ISO 3200, shutter speed 1/1250 or 1/1600, RAW, 5 fps, 85mm 1.8 lens, AiServo.

By using Manual mode you are taking the AE sensor out of the equation and putting you back into control. In situation like this the AE sensor will likely want to slow the shutter speed down to expose correctly for the black uniforms. But then as soon as you stray slightly from the player, the grey wall will cause a faster shutter speed to be calculated.

Have a think about the settings that I suggested and see if they make any noticeable difference next time around.

All the best

Good advise for the OP. The only area I would modify is that he sure doesn't need to go to 1600 shutter speed. 1/500 or 1/1000 max is going to be plenty fast enough. He could back the ISO down to 1600 or possibly even lower and get a lot less noise.

[beacherz]

Except for the oversight with the color balance, it looks pretty good. Your 85 1.8 will definately help. Shooting volleyball I've found you can bring the shutter speed down a little from 1000 and reduce iso. Hopefully you can get 1600 iso tomorrow w/800 ss and open up the 1.8 a little on your 85mm. Try spot focus, AL Servo and shoot in manual. If you have to ramp up to 3200 you will most likely need noise reduction. RAW is one idea or a NR program such as Noise Ninja is another. Finally, you can program your camera to shoot w/noise reduction in its function controls. Good luck. Volleyball is a great sport to shoot.

[Huskers69]

your 85 1.8 will do much better IMO. I usually stop mine to 2.2 and try to get ss around 640-800, and the pics look great.

[northpointphoto]

I see three problems...

1) WB is off but you already solved that problem. I would suggest either setting a custom WB or using kelvin.

2) Watch your crops/ composition. Tight is good.

3) Try running the images through noise ninja or another noise reduction filter.

Overall its not a bad shot at all.

Heres what I came up with in about 2 minutes. I tweaked the WB, cropped, and ran it trough noise ninja.

[Aaagogo]

since the settings have been covered, another qn is, how are you shooting the action?

are you following the action or waiting on a player, usually, it's better to be on a player and wait for the action to come to the player rather than chasing the ball.

you kinda got to read and predict where the serve is going to go to, which will mean having to understand your team and the opponent.

if the defensive specialist is in the back row, more often than not, that will be the person trying the get the 1st dig to the setter.

hope this helps

[d44]

I would also suggest moving the AF button to the * on the back of the camera (if the 30D can do that) to decouple it from the shutter button. Thumb control of AF, coupled with AI Servo, raised my keeper rate significantly.

[MikeKy55]

I see three problems...

1) WB is off but you already solved that problem. I would suggest either setting a custom WB or using kelvin.

2) Watch your crops/ composition. Tight is good.

3) Try running the images through noise ninja or another noise reduction filter.

Overall its not a bad shot at all.

Heres what I came up with in about 2 minutes. I tweaked the WB, cropped, and ran it trough noise ninja.

Thanks Russell. I will work on crops/composition. I have been trying to get shots that were more clear. Once I get decent IQ I will concentrate on that.
I am going to have to get Noise Ninja.

[MikeKy55]

since the settings have been covered, another qn is, how are you shooting the action?

are you following the action or waiting on a player, usually, it's better to be on a player and wait for the action to come to the player rather than chasing the ball.

you kinda got to read and predict where the serve is going to go to, which will mean having to understand your team and the opponent.

if the defensive specialist is in the back row, more often than not, that will be the person trying the get the 1st dig to the setter.

hope this helps

I have been using center point focus and trying to track the player. Although I lose them as much as I hit them. That will take tons of practice I know.

[MikeKy55]

I would also suggest moving the AF button to the * on the back of the camera (if the 30D can do that) to decouple it from the shutter button. Thumb control of AF, coupled with AI Servo, raised my keeper rate significantly.

Walt, my 30D was set that way when I got it and I changed it back. I felt more comfortable 1/2 depressing the shutter button. But I may have to re-think that :)

[bwolford]

Well, RAW is your first hurdle. Until you get over not shooting in RAW you'll still have challenges... That IMHO. Color can be corrected much easier and you'll have more control over the image. Consider it the "negative" of the digital world. Shooting JPG you are working with the image after the negative is exposed and you limit your options.

Stick with your 85MM F1.8 lens for now. Use your feet to zoom. I've used the nifty fifty in sports, but it just isn't fast focusing or sharp enough to do the job in challenging situations, consistently.

Shoot manual as well. You want all the control.

Are you using a tripod or monopod?

[SuzyView]

I would never trust any lighting in a gym. I've been shooting in horrible gym lighting for about 4 years now for my sons and the young ladies I teach. It's impossible to get it right out of the camera, so don't beat yourself up. Now for the exposure, you never have to go full ISO at the highest setting. With noise, you have to consider that. I go to 1600 tops, and on the 40D, it's not a problem. Then the choice of the 85 1.8 is a good one. That is one sharp lens and fast! So, you should have a better time. Also, in Al Servo, still track in center focus and not spot metering unless you focus on her face. Good luck and report.

[Tom Reichner]

yeah exif is missing. Looks like missed focus and low ISO. Crank up the ISO!


Crank up the ISO, Nelson? It's already as grainy as can be. Why would anyone want even more noise?

[buddy4344]

I have shot thousands of shots with a 30D. Great camera, but ... in real world settings, this camera is not really great above ISO 600 and is marginal at best above 800 ISO situations. It's not just the noise, the camera does not achieve a great focus in low light.

I know 'experts' will argue this, but I am pretty experienced, especially with this camera and the OP is trying to succeed in a tough shooting enviroment considering camera.

[fmphotos]

Whatever you do dont give up. When i first started shooting i felt will i ever improve, I'm not saying i'm amazing but i can tell I have improved alot. Just keep shooting and shooting :) goodluck.

[Aaagogo]

the 30D is still a great camera to use, I'm still using it and have shot ice hockey at 1600 or 3200 and after clean up with NN, images are very usable.

No doubt, the AF system on the 30D cannot be compared to the 1D series, but in capable hands, it's a powerful tool. Look at it this way, if you can nail at least 50% keeper rate on a less powerful camera, image what happens when you do move up to the 1 series.

as for noise, don't worry about it, it won't show up as much as what you see on the screen, and it's far less of a problem when you get the correct exposure in camera when you shoot and do very minimal cropping.

back to the OP's qn, I'm sure there's a pretty well discussed thread on here somewhere with regards to the issue of separating the shutter and focus button

this might help you as well, someone in the forum posted this before, I just saved it and recycle it when necessary http://www.astropix.com/SPORTSPIX/NSC/NOTES.HTM

[superdiver]

you HAVE to crank up the ISO, clean up in NN or NI later. Shoot RAW, find a PPing system that makes sense to you and you can repeat and get fast at.

[buddy4344]

A key technique i use if I have to shoot higher iso is to make sure the histogram is a little right of center for the fstop/shutter speed/iso combination. If the histogram gets too far left, recovery is much more difficult.

[warrior6901]

You are going to like the difference you see going from the the 50 to the 85. I have found it to be much sharper and focuses more quickly.

[superdiver]

the 85 is MUCH better then the 50 for what you are trying to do here! Shoot slightly to the right of "correct exposure". If the focus is on and the exposure is slightly to the right and you use noise software they come out NICE!

I will post what the XT, 30D and the 40 D can do at max ISO in a few minutes

[superdiver]

ok, had to go back a ways to find some bb with the xt, these are all with the same 85 1.8 at max ISO on each of the cameras..


this was some of my first work. XT, ISO 1600 85 1.8 One of our better gyms, f 2.0 1.640
http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/111414908_Uc2oX-L.jpg


here is another in one of our worse gyms on a local reservation. 1.8 1/400 with the XT
http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/106217874_GaAnZ-L.jpg

here are some from indoor pools, worse thn gyms as a rule... again with the XT
http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/103701732_Tk4Wo-L-3.jpg

another swmimming
http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/103703126_HkbJX-L-3.jpg

another dark gym with the 30D at max ISO
http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/219667512_xdJpN-L.jpg

30D maxed ISO
http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/219699106_CkeuZ-L.jpg

I was going to show the 40D but you get the idea, its only better then what I have posted.

as you can see from the pictures I am no expert, but the equipment in question can and does perform to very acceptable lvls when used correctly and when noise reducing software is applied.

[MikeKy55]

David, thanks for the trouble posting these. I was unable to get any photos today. The venue was packed and I had someone in front of me at every turn. I gave up and bagged the camera. The practice gym might be a place for me to experiment. I will give it a go.
Thanks again.

[bjoynes]

MikeKy55,

I see you are still at the VB. I have shot Vandy-Georgia BB, and Preds IH since we talked last. Like you I'm still struggling, but stick in there.

I have switched to raw, changed my focus button to *, and also my focus point to the top, as I'm shooting mostly portrait, so the face is in focus, and the frame is a bit more full. I do switch around on my focus point though. I'm still using AV mode rather than M, still some learning before M. AIServo and I think that is all. My biggest problem is exposure with the XTi, I get a lot of under exposures, but is cleaned up in PP.

I have been using a 100mm Macro, 85mm and 50mm at my daughters practices, has helped me get a feel for lens ability, and also the posistions I can shoot. I do find the 85mm is what I seem to get the best results with.

When I have shot VB, I generally pick a player, and then open both eyes, and track the action, hoping for a good shot, one eye on the viewfinder, and the other on the ball, kind of works :D

Still have to work on WB, and some other things. Hope some of this helps, it helps me to think through a post.

Best Regards

Bryn

[MikeKy55]

Hey Byrn! Good to see your post. Yeah, still at it. I don't give up too easy. I'm getting lots of good information (thanks guys!). I upgraded a little on the gear side so I can't blame that for my short comings.
Once I get a grip on the basics and start getting some decent images, I will go toward shooting RAW and PP more.
I would like to get to where I can print 4" X 6" phots with having to PP them :D.

Take care.

[herbe_nelson]

On the high ISO issue that some are raising, sometimes you have to go there. A lot of the time you are looking to freeze the action. With ss only around 1/500 this can sometimes be an issue. My safety rule is at least 1/1000 if I can get it because that freezes most action. Any higher and I'm quite grateful. In the end though it is going to come down to personal preference.

Personally I am not afraid to pump up the ISO because I need to get the shot. As many are mentioning, ISO 3200 +1/3 EC cleans up very nicely. Sure you can try to get a noise free image all the time, but from my experience, it is the moment that people treasure and not the quality of the image. A person is going to be so much more appreciative of a photo that shows them doing something really cool than they are when you show them a blurry photo and say, "I was worried about the noise". Most people won't even know what you are talking about if you start mentioning aperture and high ISO. They want the product and not a reasoning behind the shot.

On these forums most will understand when you start to discuss camera settings for a shot, but out in the real world I reckon only a handful that I meet understand or care about the settings that I am using. In a 6x4 print noise is barely noticeable. I could even get a very nice printed 8x10 out of my 1DMkII and be very happy with the results.

My suggestion is still to shoot RAW before anything else. One possibility is to shoot RAW+jpg. This will give you a product that you currently understand (jpg), but also another file format which you can practice on. The big thing that you are going to have to do is start to learn the PP procedure that works for you. Early on I constantly changed my methods as I found a new feature or tried to emulate the effect of a photo that I had liked here on the forum. Don't be afraid to ask members here what sort of settings they used in pp. More time than not, a member will gladly post an original as well as the edited version if you ask them politely. This will give you a view into what works and what doesn't.

Another tip is to not give up if you are trying to take some photos. It may mean that you have to move out of your seat to get a better vantage point, but it'll be worth it in the end. Don't be too quick to bag the camera.

Just remember that you have to be happy with the end results. Members on here can give you info until the cows come home, but you need to apply it. Don't be afraid to dive in and experiment! You'll be pleasantly surprised about how fast you pick up things.

All the best, and keep us posted on any future endeavours!

[ironbelle]

I would also suggest moving the AF button to the * on the back of the camera (if the 30D can do that) to decouple it from the shutter button. Thumb control of AF, coupled with AI Servo, raised my keeper rate significantly.

X2. It doesn't feel natural but when my keep rate improved, I got use to focusing like this fast. Your also not putting so much wear on the shutterbutton by focusing with the * button on the back of the camera.

[Thomas G]

NO NO NO... Take the good advice and keep trying!

[pantherphotos]

Good advise for the OP. The only area I would modify is that he sure doesn't need to go to 1600 shutter speed. 1/500 or 1/1000 max is going to be plenty fast enough. He could back the ISO down to 1600 or possibly even lower and get a lot less noise.

I agree totally! Especially w/85 1.8...he definitely does not need to go ISO 3200 and SS 1/1600 or even 1/1250. 1/500 is more than enough to freeze the action, 1/1000 would be more than sufficient to freeze the ball. Keep the ISO as low as you can while maintaining a good SS.

[superdiver]

I agree, I try to be at 1/500 or maybe 1/640 for the faster players, and put the ISO where you need it to get the correct exposure...

[herbe_nelson]

yeh your exposure value should be the thing that you are trying to maintain. Find a sweet spot and sit there.