Question Regarding a Photo Pass Agreement.

[bkothe]

I requested a photo pass for a show on Saturday and it was approved but I need to sign an agreement. Normally that wouldn't be a problem but after reading this one, I am not very comfortable signing it. I am not getting paid for the shoot but I was thinking of asking for money if they insist that I sign this agreement. Please read the paragraph below and let me know how you think I should handle it.

http://www.kothe.net/agreement.jpg

[thebishopp]

screw that. you basically can't do anything to the photos without their written consent. you can't use the photos at all unless they give you permission in writting nor can you edit any of the photos.

If they aren't paying you to shoot then I would tell them to stuff it. It's not worth it as ou can't even display the pictures without their written consent.

Ask for a reasonable fee if they say no then I would say screw it an leave my camera at home and just enjoy the show (that is if you actually wanting to go if you can't take pictures).

[TheHoff]

Well they're letting you into a gig for free, right? And you get to go where most people don't get to go... so give them the images as your ticket price... it sounds like you're not doing this for a specific publication so if they're doing you a favor then they expect something back, right? If you do have a specific use for the photos, I'd make sure they will clear that before bothering.

[bkothe]

Well, I am going to the show no matter what, I already have tickets. I get to shoot for the first two songs. There isn't a pit, that I can remember, but the people will be sitting for the most part and I will have room to move around up front.

I am not shooting for a publication, these will be for my personal collection. Even though these are for my own collection I still don't like the idea that they can just use the shots for anything at any time and I get nothing for it.

What do you think is a "reasonable" fee?

[TheHoff]

What do you think is a "reasonable" fee?

Letting you in for free :D but as you said, you already bought tickets. I'm not sure you can ask for a fee from a venue when they are nice enough to give you a pass and you're not actually working for publication. But what do I know...

[narlus]

Well they're letting you into a gig for free, right? And you get to go where most people don't get to go... so give them the images as your ticket price... it sounds like you're not doing this for a specific publication so if they're doing you a favor then they expect something back, right? If you do have a specific use for the photos, I'd make sure they will clear that before bothering.

the problem w/ these sorts of waiver rights is that pretty much only the major wire services or large daily newspapers can get away w/ not signing them...how many people do you know who shoot music for a living? not many, i reckon.

we are the ones being taken advantage of. and i'm talking about actually shooting for an established media outlet, not for a personal portfolio.


luckily, i haven't been in the situation to have to sign one of these onerous waivers.

[bkothe]

Letting you in for free :D but as you said, you already bought tickets. I'm not sure you can ask for a fee from a venue when they are nice enough to give you a pass and you're not actually working for publication. But what do I know...

Oh, also the agreement is between me and the bands management, not the venue. If that makes any difference.

[johnms88]

Run. Id rather send 1000 dollars to a nigerian prince.

Oh..and I doubt they will pay you after reading that.

[The Moose]

How big is the band? If they're only local then I can't say I'd agree with that and I'd rather write to them personally telling them my plans and the only reason I'm asking for the press pass is to gain better access for my portfolio for future references. If it's a more known, national or international band, then I still can't understand why they'd do this rather than pay you or just say we'll pass. Your only options, IMO, are to negotiate with them or say no and shoot from your seat.

[skifurthur]

I have only had to sign a release similar to this once and I was able to negotiate some changes...made sure that since I owned the copyright that they would compensate me if they used the image in anything but small web use. I wasn't shooting for anybody but myself for that gig.

I think it's time for all working photographers to make sure that they have alternate releases available and ready to go when confronted with a situation like this. I have found that if you act like a professional you are treated like a professional. If an agreement doesn't feel right, negotiate. If the negotiation doesn't work out for both parties, don't enter into a contract. Better to walk than to harbor anger. It's not personal, it's business.

[René Damkot]

*No way* I would sign that unaltered.

[TheHoff]

*No way* I would sign that unaltered.

Even if you really liked the band, were not shooting for publication, and were offered a free pass to the show?

I understand retaining your photograph's rights but it doesn't seem like the OP has much place to negotiate here when there doesn't seem to be a valid reason they should issue him a photo pass at all.

[londonblue007]

Even if you really liked the band, were not shooting for publication, and were offered a free pass to the show?

I understand retaining your photograph's rights but it doesn't seem like the OP has much place to negotiate here when there doesn't seem to be a valid reason they should issue him a photo pass at all.


Only if it was the Beatles, with John and George back from the dead.

Otherwise, Never. not for U2, not for Pink Floyd, not for Bruce Springsteen, no one.

[DDCSD]

Sounds like the agreements that a couple of artist's management/labels have wanted me to sign.

They wouldn't budge on the agreement, so I told them no thank you. I refuse to be used like that.

Just go and enjoy the show.

[René Damkot]

Even if you really liked the band, were not shooting for publication, and were offered a free pass to the show?

I understand retaining your photograph's rights but it doesn't seem like the OP has much place to negotiate here when there doesn't seem to be a valid reason they should issue him a photo pass at all.

There's no-one I'd like to shoot that much.

If I'd really like the band, I'd rather enjoy the show without camera.
I'd like to think my images are worth more then a free ticket :lol:

If a band tried to pull a stunt like this, chances are I'd like them less because of it BTW.

[TheHoff]

There's no-one I'd like to shoot that much.

If I'd really like the band, I'd rather enjoy the show without camera.
I'd like to think my images are worth more then a free ticket :lol:

If a band tried to pull a stunt like this, chances are I'd like them less because of it BTW.

hahah I hear you... but it almost sounds like we're valuing our potential photography for more than it is worth.

If a band requests or hires you to you cover the show, then hell no, I'm not signing that...

If the record label or venue requests or hires you to cover the show, then hell no...

If you work for a publication that negotiates your photo passes, then hell no...

But if you're just a fan who wants to bring their camera in, and you're offered a free ticket with your pass, I'm not sure why there are so many primadonnas here :D (j/k guys... but hell yes, I'd sign that to get a pass to a Floyd show)

[skifurthur]

Even if you really liked the band, were not shooting for publication, and were offered a free pass to the show?

I wouldn't do it either for that agreement. I can buy my own ticket.

I understand retaining your photograph's rights but it doesn't seem like the OP has much place to negotiate here when there doesn't seem to be a valid reason they should issue him a photo pass at all.

And if the OP disagrees with the release they can try to change it, live with it or decline it and not shoot. Everyone has their own level of comfort with a contract. Every business is different.

[skifurthur]

Only if it was the Beatles, with John and George back from the dead.

Otherwise, Never. not for U2, not for Pink Floyd, not for Bruce Springsteen, no one.

U2 doesn't have that sort of release, nor does Bruce Springsteen. Don't know about Pink Floyd...lol.

[TheHoff]

And if the OP disagrees with the release they can try to change it, live with it or decline it and not shoot. Everyone has their own level of comfort with a contract. Every business is different.

But see, that is what I'm saying -- this isn't a business. He is just a fan. There is no money changing hands and no publication is buying the photos. If the OP requests a pass for personal use photos, they are nice enough to allow him to photograph the show, then what leverage does he have to negotiate with? They are the ones giving him something for free and asking to use the photos in return.

No big deal to me but it seems most others here are approaching it as if they were contracted for this job or doing the photography as a business endeavor.

[skifurthur]

But see, that is what I'm saying -- this isn't a business. He is just a fan. There is no money changing hands and no publication is buying the photos. If the OP requests a pass for personal use photos, they are nice enough to allow him to photograph the show, then what leverage does he have to negotiate with? They are the ones giving him something for free and asking to use the photos in return.

No big deal to me but it seems most others here are approaching it as if they were contracted for this job or doing the photography as a business endeavor.

I agree that there isn't a compensation exchange here. Even when I don't have an exchange with anyone, it's still my business. I take concert photography for my living. So, it is paramount to control the images I took. If they won't negotiate, I won't shoot the show. There have been a few times that I shot for myself and later sold those photos to the band or record company because I market and network myself and create the opportunity.

Perhaps the OP is just a fan in this situation. If that is the case then, indeed, they have little to negotiate with.

Even when I go to a show I am not working at I take mental notes on staging and lighting so I can further my business if I do end up shooting them at a later date.

[DDCSD]

But see, that is what I'm saying -- this isn't a business. He is just a fan. There is no money changing hands and no publication is buying the photos. If the OP requests a pass for personal use photos, they are nice enough to allow him to photograph the show, then what leverage does he have to negotiate with? They are the ones giving him something for free and asking to use the photos in return.

No big deal to me but it seems most others here are approaching it as if they were contracted for this job or doing the photography as a business endeavor.


The problem is that the band/label will potentially use the photos to make money. Lets say the OP gets a great shot and the band uses it on t-shirts and posters and sell $10,000 worth of merchandise because of that photo. Do you think it was a good idea to give away all the photos for the "privilege" of photographing the band? What about the other photographer that lost business because the band was able to get a free shot?


The funny thing is, it always seems to be the lower-mid-level national bands/labels that try to pull this crap.

[TheHoff]

The problem is that the band/label will potentially use the photos to make money. Lets say the OP gets a great shot and the band uses it on t-shirts and posters and sell $10,000 worth of merchandise because of that photo. Do you think it was a good idea to give away all the photos for the "privilege" of photographing the band?

Definitely not. And in the case where you are good enough to get that $10k shot, you shouldn't be doing any shows for free (ala skifurthur above).


What about the other photographer that lost business because the band was able to get a free shot?

True, but to me there is a distinct quality difference between what a pro like Mr. Damkot will turn out vs. what a casual fan will give you. That is like saying a GWC at a wedding will take away from the pro's print sales -- only if the pro is mediocre enough to be confused with GWC.

[londonblue007]

U2 doesn't have that sort of release, nor does Bruce Springsteen. Don't know about Pink Floyd...lol.

These were examples.... And Pink Floyd doesn't tour anymore.... and probably never will again. And, I have thought about this, I would take this sort of agreement to shoot pink floyd. just cause i wouldn't care, i have the photos for me to use and print in my house. so there.

[bacchanal]

That reads pretty much like a "shoot and burn" contract except that you get personal use of the photos instead of pay.

Hmm...I'd probably say no thanks to that...unless it were maybe a Green River reunion show or something.

[TheHoff]

These were examples.... And Pink Floyd doesn't tour anymore.... and probably never will again. And, I have thought about this, I would take this sort of agreement to shoot pink floyd. just cause i wouldn't care, i have the photos for me to use and print in my house. so there.

Ah we agree. Thanks for coming to your senses.

[jacuff]

So here's my question... How many pixels are in a 300dpi high resolution image?

[TheHoff]

hahahah... most people consider 720p television to be high resolution, so 720 pixels on the long side, 300dpi? Sounds about right :D

[bkothe]

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Yes, I am a fan and I am shooting for my personal collection but I am also trying to gain more experience so that someday I can be considered professional and make money from my work. I don't plan on making it my career but I would like it to be a serious hobby/side business. I've been published in a entertainment newspaper in Ohio and I was very happy about that.

I totally understand what TheHoff is saying about a fan getting free admission and a photo pass but I want to consider myself as more than just a fan who wants to take some pictures. If that were the case I probably wouldn't have questioned the agreement. Even though my shots may not be at a professional level I still want to be treated professionally and I won't let them take advantage of me. If they won't change the agreement then I just won't shoot. I'd be more than happy to give them low res copies and if they want high res then we can talk compensation. But if they insist on high res without any sort of compensation then it's just not worth it.

[bkothe]

hahahah... most people consider 720p television to be high resolution, so 720 pixels on the long side, 300dpi? Sounds about right :D


I thought the exact same thing. They didn't specify how large the images actually need to be. ;)

[bacchanal]

I really don't see what you have to gain here (besides some personal photos). If you want experience, there are plenty of opportunities to shoot which allow you to also keep your rights. If you shoot these photos and love them...you'd obviously want to use then in a port or something. If you shoot this and don't do a good job...well, who benefits there?

To me the issue here isn't so much compensation as it is you losing your usage rights on the photos. If you can get approval from them in writing in advance of the shoot that allows portfolio use and web display, then it might be worth it.

[TheHoff]

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Yes, I am a fan and I am shooting for my personal collection but I am also trying to gain more experience so that someday I can be considered professional and make money from my work. I don't plan on making it my career but I would like it to be a serious hobby/side business. I've been published in a entertainment newspaper in Ohio and I was very happy about that.

I totally understand what TheHoff is saying about a fan getting free admission and a photo pass but I want to consider myself as more than just a fan who wants to take some pictures. If that were the case I probably wouldn't have questioned the agreement. Even though my shots may not be at a professional level I still want to be treated professionally and I won't let them take advantage of me. If they won't change the agreement then I just won't shoot. I'd be more than happy to give them low res copies and if they want high res then we can talk compensation. But if they insist on high res without any sort of compensation then it's just not worth it.

Cool, then treat this like a business and if this were your business and you wouldn't sign it as given, then follow your instincts. Your original post was more from the POV of a fan.

[jacuff]

I thought the exact same thing. They didn't specify how large the images actually need to be. ;)

Yeah, but the thing about that is though, if they expect higher resolution (even though you could fulfill their agreement at a much lower pixel count), the chances of you getting hired in the future could go down. Take the professional high road and just don't shoot it. You've paid the admission already, enjoy the show.

[DDCSD]

Definitely not. And in the case where you are good enough to get that $10k shot, you shouldn't be doing any shows for free (ala skifurthur above).

True, but to me there is a distinct quality difference between what a pro like Mr. Damkot will turn out vs. what a casual fan will give you. That is like saying a GWC at a wedding will take away from the pro's print sales -- only if the pro is mediocre enough to be confused with GWC.


Obviously the band/label knows that there is a chance that the GWC will put out something worth using, or they wouldn't waste everyone's time making him sign this release.

I honestly think there is a better than average chance that someone who has a clue to what they are doing can turn in a photo that could be potentially worth something.

Have a look at the threads that I have started in the PA section. I've shot exactly two concerts from the pit, and two from the crowd. I certainly think that my photos are worth more than a $20-30 ticket.

A wedding photog has to get a bunch of great shots, not just one. While I agree with your premise. Your comparison isn't all that valid. Honestly, depending on the lighting, a GWC can get lucky and get one great shot at a concert. Its not a guarantee, but it is very possible. The reason that people like Rene get the big bucks (;)) is that they can turn out multiple great shots at any and every show.

[skifurthur]

:cool:Let's hear if for Rene getting the big bucks!:lol:

[bkothe]

So I wrote back to the management and told them I would not sign the agreement without some changes. The changes I mentioned were that I would give them low res, not high res, if the wanted a high res photo we could talk compensation per photo at that time and that I retain all rights to the photos.

They responded saying that the low res photos would be fine and that they would only use the photos for promotional use and that I would get credit. She said that they do not have budget to pay for their own artists photos and that there would be other photographers there anyway and asked that I do not sell the photos. I don't have to sign anything and I get the pass. I guess they ask people to sign that agreement in case they get someone who doesn't know better.

[skifurthur]

So I wrote back to the management and told them I would not sign the agreement without some changes. The changes I mentioned were that I would give them low res, not high res, if the wanted a high res photo we could talk compensation per photo at that time and that I retain all rights to the photos.

They responded saying that the low res photos would be fine and that they would only use the photos for promotional use and that I would get credit. She said that they do not have budget to pay for their own artists photos and that there would be other photographers there anyway and asked that I do not sell the photos. I don't have to sign anything and I get the pass. I guess they ask people to sign that agreement in case they get someone who doesn't know better.

And the lesson is:

Everything is negotiable in life.

Congrats on standing your ground and providing them with an alternative that both parties can live with.

[DDCSD]

So I wrote back to the management and told them I would not sign the agreement without some changes. The changes I mentioned were that I would give them low res, not high res, if the wanted a high res photo we could talk compensation per photo at that time and that I retain all rights to the photos.

They responded saying that the low res photos would be fine and that they would only use the photos for promotional use and that I would get credit. She said that they do not have budget to pay for their own artists photos and that there would be other photographers there anyway and asked that I do not sell the photos. I don't have to sign anything and I get the pass. I guess they ask people to sign that agreement in case they get someone who doesn't know better.

I must say, I'm very surprised. I've tried to do that a couple of times and have been told in both cases "sorry, that's our policy".

Glad it worked out for you!

[René Damkot]

to me there is a distinct quality difference between what a pro like Mr. Damkot will turn out vs. what a casual fan will give you.
:o Why, thanks....
Don't know if that;s necessarily true however;
You should see some of my discards ;)

The reason that people like Rene get the big bucks (;)) is that they can turn out multiple great shots at any and every show.

:cool:Let's hear if for Rene getting the big bucks!:lol:

I wish ;)
PA photography is not what I make money at...

So I wrote back to the management and told them I would not sign the agreement without some changes. The changes I mentioned were that I would give them low res, not high res, if the wanted a high res photo we could talk compensation per photo at that time and that I retain all rights to the photos.

They responded saying that the low res photos would be fine and that they would only use the photos for promotional use and that I would get credit. She said that they do not have budget to pay for their own artists photos and that there would be other photographers there anyway and asked that I do not sell the photos. I don't have to sign anything and I get the pass. I guess they ask people to sign that agreement in case they get someone who doesn't know better.

Glad it worked out for you!

Quoted for truth!
Good outcome.

[The Moose]

Well done on negotiating with them. I wonder what they would have said if you didn't want to give them the photos. You've already paid for the ticket to go as a fan :lol: Have fun mate.

[hooookup]

I was in a similar situation some time ago and was asked to sign an agreement somewhat like that. I crossed out the entire thing with a red pen and wrote "Photographers does not consent to these terms and will not abide by them." I showed the publicist the paper and told her that I would not be covering the event as long as we were forced to sign such garbage. She told the venues management that all of the media were up in arms about this and we were about to walk. They came back apologized for the inconvenience and tore up all of the agreements and let us shoot without restrictions.

[bkothe]

The show was great! As expected. I shot up front and center for the first three songs. I continued shooting from the sides for a while then went to my seat in the balcony for a bit. I then went back down to shoot more from the sides. There was another guy with a pass sitting up front who was shooting film. I was impressed although I didn't get any contact info so I don't know what his shots look like.

I finally finished, last night, going through the shots that I took at the show. I was upset because I could have had some really great shots. The lighting was much better than I was shooting for. It wasn't till near the end when I really started messing around with all of the settings and that's when I got some better shots. I was able to drop down to 400-800 ISO because there was so much white light.

I was some what pissed at myself for not paying attention to focus at the beginning of the show when I was up front. He kept coming to the edge of the stage but I was so worried about shooting that I don't realize that I was not actually focusing on the artist but more of the guitar or the mic. I could have had some great shots during the first three songs had I realized I was focusing on the guitar or the stage or his knees and not his face.

Oh well, I continue to learn with each show what I should pay attention to. Next time I will pay more attention to what I am actually focusing on. You can see the final collection here: http://www.briankothephotography.com/JoeBonamassa/

Some of what I felt were the better shots are:
http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4577.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4332.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4498.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4583.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4340.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4492.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4343.jpg

http://www.briankothephotography.com/joebonamassa/html/content/bin/images/large/JB_20090307_4622.jpg

[OrbitalDeath127]

Congrats on the success man. I'm about to go to a show really soon myself and I was interested in getting a press pass. I have no experience shooting concert photography but would like to build up my portfolio. How exactly did you ask the management the first time around for the press pass?