Asked to do photoshoot, they're willing to pay... how much to charge?

[elbirth]

I'm far from a professional, but a while back I had helped with a photoshoot for an organization around campus at our university. Along with those photos and a few others from other things, I got a call tonight from a girl that said she really liked the photos of mine that she had seen, and wanted to know if I was available this Sunday (talk about short notice) to do some photos.

The university's gospel choir is putting together a CD to sell, and had looked around for a photographer, and the magazine's editor thought of me and called to ask if I'd be available to do it. She gave me the number of the choir's director to get the fine details from, but I left a voicemail and am waiting to hear back. She said they're willing to pay, but it's kind of a dilemma for me...

On the one hand, I'm definitely not a professional, and I've only done the 1 shoot before for someone other than myself, so it's new territory for me. For those reasons, I don't particularly feel too comfortable charging, but on the other hand, I'd hate to potentially just give them free service and take away from someone that might need to make some money off it (hey, I need a battery grip and some lenses myself;)).

So I probably want to go on and accept payment for it, but my question is... about how much would sound reasonable for it? I really have no idea how much it'd run if they had a professional doing it... I don't want to feel cheated out of my time and effort, but I don't want to break the bank for them, either.

Suggestions? Thoughts? Comments? Anything is most appreciated

[tim]

I'm in a similar position experience wise. Right now i'm shooting anything anyone likes to gain the experience, usually not charging them for it. I can't offer advice on the cost, but remember you have to cover equipment, transport, the shoot, your time to correct the photos in photoshop, and time to talk to them about arrangements. I'd be interested in the answers you get too.

[ritzwed]

In school I had an art teacher who once told me as soon as someone pays you, that makes you a professional :-)

Charge what you feel your time is worth. How many hours will it take?

But also remember you might want them to call you back for other photo jobs....

[Black Ricco]

Professional day-rates for photographers range from $1000 to $2,500 a day. The star shooters can command as much as $10,000 a day and more. You said you're far from a professional but you obviously did something they liked.


I know you'd like the work for both the money and the experience but don't seem too desperate and give your work away. Too low a figure will shake their confidence in you. Figure out how much time it will take, both shooting and post production at $30.00 an hour, and give them a quote.

[Carzee]

Go ahead and start "pushing some buttons" - sound them out with some creative portraiture ideas to see what their reaction is. In the extreme, say, give them ideas of a group shot at a airport - full of happy smiling faces. Its been done many different ways (do a choir picture search on www.alltheweb.com (http://www.alltheweb.com) or similar) perhaps once too often. Go fishing, Ask if they could provide proper stage lighting or hire it... etc. If they baulk at hiring stuff on campus or asking patrons for funds to hire a bus or other stuff, the signal they send is obvious. Once you have more of a "sitrep", you'll have your answer re them paying x or x2 dollars etc.

Actually a photo search could inspire you, challenge you to do better. Groups of faces require wide angles. Small and stereotypical props (bad pun there). Eg microphones, cliche but instant conveyance of musicianship. They wear a uniform? So much the better, now what complimentary colors are in the frame? Maybe just a plain background with color washes from stage lights or whatever. Slim down the props to an absolute minimum.

Summary; the photo on the CD should scream vocal group, fun, gospel....KISS. Just reverse engineer the result they are looking for. Let them signal what the result is going to be/expected to be.

Disclaimer: I have never done a choir shoot, but I do sing in a 30 person choir once a month, and its real shoestring stuff. IF we ever did a CD, we'd sell out maybe 29 CDs in total, 'cos I for one would never buy it!:cool:

[Carzee]

I just did a picture search myself. Not much is inspiring except this one which does it fer me:
http://www.vagabondvistas.com/IMAGES/ARCHIVES/NAMERICA/USA/Web/jpeg/gospel_choir.jpg

What it needs to make it perfect is something overtly christian. What if the lady with the glasses was wearing a crucifix brooch, necklace or earing - bingo.

[elbirth]

Thanks all so far :)

Black Ricco, I'd LOVE to make $1000 or more off this, yet I highly doubt they have anything near that for a budget since they're just a college group.... you never know though. I may start out asking if they have a particular budget in mind and go from there, I'm not sure how I want to work that just yet. The $30/hour sounds decent enough. I've already got my current equipment, and I'll be on campus anyway, so travel costs don't really exist for this, so that's nice. I could definitely put the money towards paying off what I have and/or getting new stuff though.

Carzee, thanks a lot for the excellent advice! :) I really appreciate it, you made some great points. And I agree, that photo you found would make a really interesting shot. I know one shot that was mentioned to me in particular they want is a group shot of just all of the choir members. They mentioned that "and others" so I'll find out if they have particular things in mind when I talk to the girl later today or so.

[dhbailey]

Don't worry so much about what you "should" charge, think more about what you need to charge.

Do you have a job? What does it pay per hour? Is that a good amount for you to live on? Someone mentioned $30/hour. That's a very reasonable rate. In my self-employed work as music teacher and instrument repairman I charge $40/hour. Out of that I have to pay my health insurance, save anything I can for retirement, and support a family of 4 (my wife works too). Oh yes, self-employed people pay the full 15% social security payment. Employed people who receive W2 forms pay only half of that, or 7.5%, while their employer pays the other half.

I AM NOT A TAX EXPERT, NOR HAVE I PLAYED ONE ON TV, so take this advice for being worth what you have paid for it:

If you earn income you can then deduct all your expenses, including computer equipment, photo equipment (expensive lenses become more attractive and affordable when they become business expenses which you subtract from any income you earn from your business) mileage to and from photo shoots, paper supplies for printing pictures, memory cards, and thousands of other things. Anything you can reasonably claim is necessary for your business.

The IRS gives you a certain number of years in which to show a profit, after which they can declare your business a hobby and not a real business and make you pay for all your previous deductions.

If you receive payment, you will have to file a Schedule C (profit or loss from a business) along with your income taxes, as well as form SE (for the payment of the self-employment social-security tax) and the form for depreciation/amortization of equipment. It sounds daunting, but it's not. Keep great records and you can do your taxes in a couple of hours. Perhaps pay for an accountant to help you get your record-keeping setup properly at the beginning (or read some books on it). Keep your receipts organized and write them down at least once a month so you don't end up with a year's worth of bookkeeping to do at the end of the year. Oh yes, if your income tax withholdings from your main job won't be enough to cover your main income taxes plus the taxes you'll owe for this additional business, you'll have to make quarterly payments of your estimated tax liability.

This might sound like overkill advice in response to a fairly simple question, but if you are paid by an organization, they will need your social security number. They must by law file a form 1099 for each person/business they pay $500 or more to in a single year, so the IRS may well find out about you. When they do, if you haven't kept your tax nose clean and dotted every i and crossed every t, it can be expensive and quite bothersome.

By the time you have figured out all this extra time that running a business entails, boosting that $30/hour to $40/hour may be wise.

On the other hand, if you already have a good job which withholds money for income taxes, and this is really just hobby income, you could consider lowering the rate to $20/hour and getting more work. Just make sure you don't price yourself so low that you resent your involvement in the project, or so that the clients think your work is worthless. When people pay more they think they get better quality. When they pay less they sometimes think they get cheap junk. The actual quality of the item may not change, or may actually be reversed (i.e. the less expensive item may be higher quality) but people will rarely admit that.

[Carzee]

What about the State gov't and Union red tape? Is your artistic license current?

[Az2Africa]

I agree with Carzee about the coffee!!

[Az2Africa]

:mad: I agree with Carzee about the coffee!!

[IndyJeff]

First thing you need to do is figure what is the minimum your willing to do this for. Second, you need to think about what they are doing with this image. Their using it on a CD so, your looking at commercial rates.

Now given the fact that this is a college, your college, how much of a discount did they give you on your tuition? Give them the same discount. They aren't doing this with the idea of losing money as a goal are they? Probably not, they are wanting to raise funds with this project.

Granted they won't have a budget like Motown Records but, they are expecting to pay something. Who is producing this CD? Are they giving the group a freebie or cheap rate? They will have expenses, which they expected, your just one of them.


Get yourself in the drivers seat before you go any further. Sit down and come up with ideas for the cover shot. Scout around your locality for a nice little white country church. Envison the shot, several of them, and present them with ideas. Anyone can shoot a snapshot of the choir standing up singing, be creative. Make them want to pay YOU!!!!

[mdm]

You don't want to do this for free. Charge em till their gums bleed. Your time and equipment are not cheap. If they want you make them pay. Go high and let them talk you down.

[elbirth]

<snip>

Thanks for all that info... now you've got me worrying about taxes and the IRS coming for me :o:eek:

Right now I kind of have a job. I currently work for my father, who owns his own screen printing business. I help pack/ship signs/t-shirts/whatever he prints and also do the layouts and design work for much of the artwork that gets printed. I don't get paid enough to go buy a house/apartment and live off of, so having a photo job that would take away from my current making a living isn't really likely to happen.

Up until this year, for the past 2 years I also worked in computer tech support on campus at my college, making roughly $8/hour since I was a student employee and not an full-time employee.

Although I'm 22 years old as of today, I've never had a high enough paying job to where I had to file my taxes or anything like that, so I've never gone through that process as of yet. If it comes down to it, my dad can help me with filing them, though, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I really hadn't considered something like that, as I was just looking at the "job" as doing a favor for someone, but they were giving me some money to make it worth my time :)


Carzee: as I mentioned in my initial post, I'm just a hobbyist, so I have no licenses or anything...

[Vegas Poboy]

Since you're just starting off and don't really know the business I would use this as a guidline.

1) Speak with the director and see exactly want they want.
a. Group Shots
b. Head shots
c. While performing or studio setting

2) What is the photos going to be used for ?
a.CD covers
b.In house Pamplets
c.Advertisement / Promotions / web
d.Will there be any private usage?

3) How do they want them delivered?
a. CD only High Res
b. Prints
c. CD & Prints

4) How many singers?

5) Expected turn around time.

If you feel you can fullfill what they're looking for then first tell them you want to draw up a proposal first and will get back with them in two days. This gives you enough time to figure out the following.

1) Getting together a written contract
2) Cost estimating of pre production time
3) Production time
4) Post production time
And delivery of product.

Know this may seem alot to process but dealing with churches can explode into something way bigger than you ever expected. So this can help you launch a major / minor career into photography. Churches is a great way to start or promote.

Now to basically give a ballpark to start I would go from $75 -$125.00 an hour to start plus an additional $50.00 for a low res CD that's good enough for web use. After that all of the other factors come to figure in. In the past I've sold the file for $25.00 to $50.00 each with photo credits. This is when I was starting out, I've been tweaking my pricing to the market average since then. Remember it's only profit after expense & salery to yourself have been paid. :)

This is only a recommendation :)

[elbirth]

well, I talked to the choir director earlier and found out that actually all they're looking to do is take a group picture of all 50-60 people, on the steps of our planetarium, which is a popular place to do things like this, and they've got all of that taken care of.

They just want the single shot, which is going to go on the cover of the case for their CD. From what I gather, the entire setup is rather unprofessional, and I don't think the recordings are going to be anything more than setting up a couple microphones and recording them with no post-editing, etc... they offered $50 for the single shot, and I'm going to get a CD as well, so I'll have a copy of the final product. I figured since that's all I'll be doing, $50 for my first ever sold photo isn't too bad.

[Vegas Poboy]

well, I talked to the choir director earlier and found out that actually all they're looking to do is take a group picture of all 50-60 people, on the steps of our planetarium, which is a popular place to do things like this, and they've got all of that taken care of.

They just want the single shot, which is going to go on the cover of the case for their CD. From what I gather, the entire setup is rather unprofessional, and I don't think the recordings are going to be anything more than setting up a couple microphones and recording them with no post-editing, etc... they offered $50 for the single shot, and I'm going to get a CD as well, so I'll have a copy of the final product. I figured since that's all I'll be doing, $50 for my first ever sold photo isn't too bad.

Make sure you get Photo credits inside cover of the CD & if Possible an extra cd cover for your portfolio.
Good Luck

[IndyJeff]

For $50 I would shoot 5 images and deliver one. If someone has their eyes closed or are making a goofy face, too bad, that's not your fault. A reshoot will be another $50 gentelmen.

And definately get a signed license agreement allowing them to use the image for a cd cover for 1 production run, nothing else. If they want other uses, then that is another subject...and price.

[elbirth]

Yes, I definitely want to try to get an extra cover, it'll be the start of my portfolio for jobs I've gotten paid for :)

And I plan on taking several shots anyway, for that exact reason. I'm going to try to prevent that from happening by giving them like a 3 second count before I take the photo, but there'll inevitably be someone doing something.

Also, another reason I'm not really disappointed in just $50 for the shot, is they've got someone that's going to post-process it and prep it for the cover. They want the images the same day, so what I may do is simply bring my laptop with me and when I'm done, download the photos to my computer and either use the JPEGs I shoot, or convert the RAWs (I'll shoot RAW + JPEG) and burn them a CD and hand it to them. Quick, simple, no major effort on my part, and I get a few extra bucks.

[mdm]

No credits on cover, tax trail. be careful.

[jukas]

Also, another reason I'm not really disappointed in just $50 for the shot, is they've got someone that's going to post-process it and prep it for the cover. They want the images the same day, so what I may do is simply bring my laptop with me and when I'm done, download the photos to my computer and either use the JPEGs I shoot, or convert the RAWs (I'll shoot RAW + JPEG) and burn them a CD and hand it to them. Quick, simple, no major effort on my part, and I get a few extra bucks.

Even if it's $5 or $500,000 have a contract clearly stating what you are providing, what you expect and their useage rights for your images.

No credits on cover, tax trail. be careful.

They are only required to provide a 1099 if they pay him more than $500 in a single year. Even if they did, and he had to list the 1099 on his income tax (probably a 1040ez from the sounds of his financial situation) the amount it would effect his tax is extremely negligable (less than $10). Definately get photo credits on the cd.

[lost]

The IRS will not worry about 50 bucks. Definitely try to get the credits for the cover. My family has owned a tax business for 40 years and I worked there for 5 and been on many audits. Not a single auditor has ever pulled a CD case and asked if my client got paid for the picture. LOL J/K Keep track of your expenses from now on. If later on this year a high paying job comes along you will want to deduct all expenses related to your "Photography Business".