What the heck??!!

[f stop]

I was attending an NBA game the other night with my son. I was sitting in my seat about 20 rows up taking some shots with my 30D and the 70-200 f/2.8 IS attached when one of the ushers came up and told me that I could not take pictures with such a long lens. That is the first time that has ever happened to me at any venue. No, I was not there as a professional. I just wanted to practice shooting some sports. Another usher showed me where they had their camera rules in writing and it said nothing about the length of the lens. It said no video camera were allowed and I saw several people shooting video. I was a nice boy, though and complied with their request. What's the story? What rules did I violate? Anyone have any other stories?

[skintero]

The problem may be that a lot of point and shoot cameras are now able to shoot video as well. So they assumed you were shooting video. Just a guess. My 40D doesn't shoot video, but I sure can't expect the ushers to know the difference between all cameras. They were most likely just playing it safe and making you put up your camera because they didn't know you were only shooting stills.

[jamesb84]

I would imagine it's more to do with NBA Media ensuring that only accredited persons can take and distribute images of an NBA game. I'm not going to assume that you would be so unscrupulous as to sell photos that you took from your seat, but to be on the safe side they dont allow anyone to do.

In theory, this applies to the Premier League football in the UK, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL etc. I have seen people removed from stadia here for shooting shots.

James.

[jacuff]

Yeah, it has little to do with any rules that you have broken and almost everything to do with licensing agreements.

If you want to practice shooting sports, look for little league or high school level sports. Much easier to gain access to and the techniques you learn at the lower levels apply equally at upper levels (college/pro).

[DDCSD]

You're at the mercy of the ushers. While they may be wrong, you can't really argue the point with them

You should email the team and ask for clarification of their still camera policy. Don't mention that you were told to put your camera away though. If they say that you are ok with whatever you have as long as it doesn't interfere with the other fans, bring a printout of the email with you next time. You're still at their mercy, but you might be able to convince them that you are OK shooting.

Was this a Pacers game?

[wfcs1962]

I walked into the United Center last week with my 1D mark IIn with a 70-200 hanging over my shoulder and nobody said boo to me like it would have mattered I had not so good seats but I did see guys in the closer rows shooting with long lenses and they were not media. Who knows how they think.

[f stop]

Right, Derek. It was at a Pacer game. There was an usher near me that thought her job was to make sure you didn't enjoy yourself. She was busting everyone for some reason or other.

[Thalagyrt]

Straight from the back of my NBA credential:

<snip the beginning>

Unless expressly authorized in writing by the NBA, the use, distribution, exhibition, reproduction, adaptation, display, performance or publication in any form of any photograph, drawing, account or description of the Game or any excerpt of the foregoing, taken or made by Bearer or his or her assigning news organization shall be limited to news coverage of the Game by the assigning news organization to which this credential is issued.

<snip stuff about video being disallowed>

All ownership, copyright, and property rights in the Game (including, without limitation, the statistics thereof) and in any telecast, broadcast, transmission, or recording thereof shall remain the sole property of the NBA, and no such rights are conferred or intended to be conferred or created on behalf of any other person or entity by the issuance of this credential.

<snip the end>

My family has been involved in the NBA in more ways than one since 1967, and I can tell you without a shred of doubt that these rules apply to everyone in any NBA related venue. The NBA are picky as hell when it comes to photography of any form, and that's likely why they stopped you. Even though you aren't going to use it commercially, they don't know that.

Side note, it really annoys me, because my best photography is my NBA photography, and I can't post any of that here.

[jamesb84]

Straight from the back of my NBA credential:



My family has been involved in the NBA in more ways than one since 1967, and I can tell you without a shred of doubt that these rules apply to everyone in any NBA related venue. The NBA are picky as hell when it comes to photography of any form, and that's likely why they stopped you. Even though you aren't going to use it commercially, they don't know that.

Side note, it really annoys me, because my best photography is my NBA photography, and I can't post any of that here.

I know that one...my best stuff comes from Football League and Premiership football over here, and I can't show the photos, unless they're published.

James.

[f stop]

Yeah, I get that, but then why weren't they stopping everyone with a camera? Was I the one who looked serious because I brought a more expensive / more professional looking camera?

[Thalagyrt]

Yeah, I get that, but then why weren't they stopping everyone with a camera? Was I the one who looked serious because I brought a more expensive / more professional looking camera?

Yup.

[dawiyo]

This is going to ruffle some feathers.
This is not directed to anyone in particular including the OP or anyone else wanting to take photos from their seats.
__________________________________________________

I'm glad they stop people from using their cameras.
Just think, someone takes a shot, posts it on Flickr, and a photo editor sees it.
He contacts you to use the photo.
You just took away business from a professional making a living.

The ushers/organization is just trying to protect us fellow photographers.

[Thalagyrt]

This is going to ruffle some feathers.
This is not directed to anyone in particular including the OP or anyone else wanting to take photos from their seats.
__________________________________________________

I'm glad they stop people from using their cameras.
Just think, someone takes a shot, posts it on Flickr, and a photo editor sees it.
He contacts you to use the photo.
You just took away business from a professional making a living.

The ushers/organization is just trying to protect us fellow photographers.

I think pretty much everyone who shoots sports professionally will agree with you on that. :)

[northpointphoto]

+1 for what DAWIYO and Thalagyrt said.

If they didnt have rules about cameras then anyone could show up, sit in the stands with a long lens, and get shots and sell them to different agencies.

I know this is possible because I was shooting a NCAA lacrosse game last year and my friends camera was laying on the ground next to me during half time. I heard this very fast clicking and I thought it was his camera firing and picked it up. the clicking didnt stop so I started looking around. Sitting behind me in the first row of the stands was a guy with a D3 and a 600mm lens shooting the game.

[Jon, The Elder]

That is why I shoot Horses. Nobody with any brains does what I do, so nobody interferes with my shooting. Simple, just change your preferred sport......

[PhotosGuy]

Nobody with any brains does what I do, :D And you were offended when I said, "I don't do 1 horsepower!"

[clarence]

This is going to ruffle some feathers.
This is not directed to anyone in particular including the OP or anyone else wanting to take photos from their seats.
__________________________________________________

I'm glad they stop people from using their cameras.
Just think, someone takes a shot, posts it on Flickr, and a photo editor sees it.
He contacts you to use the photo.
You just took away business from a professional making a living.

The ushers/organization is just trying to protect us fellow photographers.

I think pretty much everyone who shoots sports professionally will agree with you on that. :)

+1 for what DAWIYO and Thalagyrt said.

If they didnt have rules about cameras then anyone could show up, sit in the stands with a long lens, and get shots and sell them to different agencies.

I know this is possible because I was shooting a NCAA lacrosse game last year and my friends camera was laying on the ground next to me during half time. I heard this very fast clicking and I thought it was his camera firing and picked it up. the clicking didnt stop so I started looking around. Sitting behind me in the first row of the stands was a guy with a D3 and a 600mm lens shooting the game.

If a photo editor prefers the pictures taken from a ticket-buying hobbyist sitting in nosebleed seats over the credentialed professionals sitting courtside, it sounds like the pro's should be worried about the collective quality and value of their product more than what the fans are bringing to enjoy 2 of our favorite hobbies... sports and photography.

Did you all start off as pro's from Day 1, or did you shoot your first games from the stands?

[Thalagyrt]

If a photo editor prefers the pictures taken from a ticket-buying hobbyist sitting in nosebleed seats over the credentialed professionals sitting courtside, it sounds like the pro's should be worried about the collective quality and value of their product more than what the fans are bringing to enjoy 2 of our favorite hobbies... sports and photography.

Did you all start off as pro's from Day 1, or did you shoot your first games from the stands?

At least with the NBA, licensing agreements prevent any publishing agency from using photos from non-credentialed photographers, and it's very easy to pick out a photo that was taken by a pro because there are literally two places said pro would be sitting, under the basket on each side, or in some arenas, center court side opposite the team benches. If any publisher uses a shot from a fan with a camera, the publisher will be sued and the league will win, no questions about it. Fans can bring in cameras with lenses under 6 inches long, even if it's a 1Ds III, and usually won't be stopped for shooting. If you come in with something like a 70-200 or 100-400 though, you can definitely expect to be told to put it away.

Considering that my father is the president of basketball ops at the Heat, and has had one of the most well known NBA careers spanning 1967-2008, I was pretty much able to come in as a credentialed shooter from day one under mentorship of Victor Baldizon, the official Heat photographer. Go ahead and look him up, he's a very prolific sports shooter with a career spanning 38 years, and an extremely nice man; definitely a true pro in every sense of the word. It's kind of funny how he's ended up following my father's career from Los Angeles to New York to Miami.

My shots are strictly licensed for distribution among the family members of basketball ops, including the players. I might be able to get a release on a few shots to post them here but I can't say for sure.

To be quite honest, at this point my shots are nearly on par with the pros and in some cases better than the newspaper photogs who often come in and blast off 10 FPS burst shots in hopes of catching the right moment, not that there's anything wrong with that approach; it works fine some of the time but it makes post processing and choosing images a nightmare. I've been around the NBA my entire life and due to that I've become pretty good at predicting moments and action. I hardly ever use the burst mode at all as I just can tell what's going to happen and shoot it when it does.

Sometimes things heat up a bit and it's easy to get distracted from shooting the game and just kinda sit there watching, forgetting I'm on the court with a camera, haha. ;)

I'm clearly an exception to the typical methods of getting in to sports photography due to my family's involvement in the league and consider myself extremely lucky for that. Building a portfolio with the Heat and working with Victor will be an amazing way to open doors into other venues and areas of photography, possibly putting me on my way to a professional career, something I would truly love.

[jamesb84]

Did you all start off as pro's from Day 1, or did you shoot your first games from the stands?

As I'm sure everyone who is a pro now will tell you...we started at the bottom and worked our way up. Every one of us...except Thalagyrt...lucky so and so.

James.

[Thalagyrt]

As I'm sure everyone who is a pro now will tell you...we started at the bottom and worked our way up. Every one of us...except Thalagyrt...lucky so and so.

James.

I'm still not a pro though, I'm just shooting with them. Still learning every day. Some day I'll get paid for it, I hope.

[clarence]

Considering that my father is the president of basketball ops at the Heat... I was pretty much able to come in as a credentialed shooter from day one.

Yes, but the original poster doesn't happen to be the son of a NBA coaching legend.

He is a sports fan and an amateur photographer.

He is not trying to sell his pictures.

Nor is he attempting to "take away business from a professional making a living."

He is a paying fan in his assigned seat, supporting his team, and in compliance with the rules published on the Team site and the Stadium site:

http://www.consecofieldhouse.com/fanguide.asp
Camera/Video Equipment
"Still" cameras are permitted at Pacers and Fever games. League rules prohibit video cameras.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/security_030320.html
As always, video cameras, coolers, food, laser pointers, large signs and banners, large bags, bottles, pole-mounted flags and signs, weapons, cans, horns, missile-type objects, artificial noisemakers and items of a like nature are prohibited. No bags/packages larger than 16" x 16" will be allowed. Still cameras will be allowed at Pacers’ games.

[Thalagyrt]

He is a paying fan in his assigned seat, supporting his team, and in compliance with the rules published on the Team site and the Stadium site:

http://www.consecofieldhouse.com/fanguide.asp
[/size]

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/security_030320.html

Those aren't really the full rules. There is a certain lens length that is allowed when it comes to SLRs, and I mentioned that earlier, the generally known rule is 6 inches. The 70-300 DO is probably a good choice for being discreet at NBA games. ;)

[clarence]

Those aren't really the full rules. There is a certain lens length that is allowed when it comes to SLRs, and I mentioned that earlier, the generally known rule is 6 inches. The 70-300 DO is probably a good choice for being discreet at NBA games. ;)

"generally known rule"?!

Please inform the security screeners, ushers, and webmasters at all college and professional arenas about your personal interpretation. :rolleyes:

Thanks for finally solving this age-old frustration of what lenses are allowed when a website states "Still cameras are permitted" and "Still cameras will be allowed at Pacers’ games".

The 40D is a still camera.

[Thalagyrt]

"generally known rule"?!

Please inform the security screeners, ushers, and webmasters at all college and professional arenas about your personal interpretation. :rolleyes:

Thanks for finally solving this age-old frustration of what lenses are allowed when a website states "Still cameras are permitted" and "Still cameras will be allowed at Pacers’ games".

The 40D is a still camera.

I know the 40D is a still camera, that is not the point. They limit your lens size. It's a NBA regulation, not an arena regulation, and the ushers sometimes seem to not understand it and/or interpret it very selectively. I've seen one person get away with a big camera and the person next to them get the boot for using something smaller. The NBA and some of the people it hires tend to be pretty ridiculous about their interpretations of everything. If you want, I can get the official league rules regarding cameras and clear it up entirely, but it'll take a few days.

I'm not trying to get into a flame fest here, so stop trying to make it into one. Again, the regulation is no longer than 6 inches on the lens.

Also, I said NOTHING at all about NCAA or any college sports. I am talking strictly NBA.

[clarence]

They limit your lens size. It's a league regulation...

If you want, I can get the official league rules regarding cameras and clear it up entirely, but it'll take a few days.

I'm not trying to get into a flame fest here, so stop trying to make it into one. Again, the regulation is no longer than 6 inches on the lens.

No flaming intended.

Search around... this question has come up repeatedly. Lots of opinions about "generally known rules" but no consistent, authoritative reference.

I'd love to see "the official league rules regarding cameras and clear it up entirely".

In the mean time, I'll continue to follow the stadium and team policies posted on their websites.

[Thalagyrt]

No flaming intended.

Search around... this question has come up repeatedly. Lots of opinions about "generally known rules" but no consistent, authoritative reference.

I'd love to see "the official league rules regarding cameras and clear it up entirely".

In the mean time, I'll continue to follow the stadium and team policies posted on their websites.

Fair enough. :)

I'll shoot an email off to media relations and ask about the actual league policies regarding shooting from the stands, and I'll post back when I have a clear answer.

[Thalagyrt]

I haven't gotten anything back yet, but I re-read the regulations that I was able to dig up and it appears that I was combining the local venue regulations with the league regulations. From what I gather after looking into it further it varies from venue to venue and isn't entirely league wide. What I was citing was a regulation from the American Airlines Arena.

If there's a league regulation about lens size and cameras that overshadows venue regulations I'll let you know, but it seems I was a bit mistaken! :oops:

I do know for a fact though that the NBA licensing on photos does not vary. If you're within venue regulations and are taking the shots strictly for personal use, you should be clear, but if you sell them watch out, it could be very bad. ;)

Edit: Hah, we said the same thing at the same time.

[clarence]

Thanks. But anything more than an e-mail reply would be appreciated... a website reference or a PDF would be great. Something that could be printed and brought to a game to clarify the policy. Again, this isn't about media relations, pro credentials, or publishing rights. It's about paying fans adhering to "still cameras are allowed" policies posted on nba.com, team, and arena websites.

It's a NBA regulation, not an arena regulation

Then why does the NBA regulation vary so wildly for various teams and arenas across the league?

Here are the first 5 teams I found camera policies for... all on nba.com ...all different:

http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/gameexp_faq.html
What is the camera policy at a Raptors home game?

Camera flashes may not be used at any time during games. Video cameras are permitted, however NBA policy strictly prohibits the use of still photos or video footage for commercial purposes without the express written approval of the NBA head office.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/contact/fan_guide_a_to_z.html
Cameras/Video Recorder Policy
Cameras are permitted for Cavaliers games. The camera policy for other events is determined by each show. Video recorders are not permitted inside Quicken Loans Arena for events and Cavaliers games.

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/news/faqs_aboutteam.html
CAMERAS/CAMCORDERS
Only small personal still camera equipment with a three inch lens or smaller may be brought into Charlotte Bobcats Arena.

http://www.nba.com/rockets/season_ticket_holders/Season_Tickets_Holder_FAQrsqu-152668-822.html
Cameras containing lenses (not to exceed 4 inches in length) with no flashes may be allowed for some events. Video cameras and audio recorders are prohibited in Toyota Center unless specifically approved.

http://www.nba.com/celtics/tickets/garden-information.html
No cameras or recording devices are allowed.

[Thalagyrt]

Ack, did the forum just bug up? About the policies, your best bet when going to a venue would be to print out the regulations from the venue's site, and if they give you crap, show them that. That still won't necessarily stop them from stopping you though.

Storytime:
I had a new security guard try to stop me from going into a restricted area that I have access to even with my credential on, and she got into a huge argument with four other ushers/guards about it. They told her to back off, and she wouldn't stop mouthing off at me and the other guards. She turned out to be really nice once the air cleared, but she'd already made her mistake, and since it took the head of security coming over telling her to can it in order for her to back down, I have a feeling she won't be at that post again. Give someone a bit of authority and they think they're god and will mouth off at people without realizing that it could be the wrong person to mouth off at. End result, the son of the president of the team was detained for 4 minutes by a 1st day security guard. Since that happened to me, I'm pretty sure it can happen to literally anyone.

I'm not trying to come across as some elite jerk, and I apologize if this story can be taken that way, but I really couldn't think of any other way to word that story. Talk to me for a while and you'll see that I'm strongly opinionated but when it comes down to it I'm just another regular person. :)