Are you a professional or ameteur?

[Franko]

just a quick question here, but i wanted to get a feel for the composition of camera enthusiasts in general.

[Vegas Poboy]

Freelance is considered as a Pro without a Studio. Just in case you did not know.
I had this explained to me by a pro, not trying to be picky. I was very un-aware until someone explained it to me.

[Avalonthas]

I dont think anyone should judge themselves as a Pro...because in that case u wouldnt be. You need to be considered by someone else as a Pro based on ur work.

[Franko]

Ill try and simplify it as either: paid to photograph and photographing as an unpaid hobby.

[KennyG]

I dont think anyone should judge themselves as a Pro...because in that case u wouldnt be. You need to be considered by someone else as a Pro based on ur work.

Being a pro has to do with payment for work, not a statement of your artistic/technical abilities.

[Citizensmith]

What percentage of income do you want for someone to be considered a pro. For instance I do get paid for my photography, but it is only about 10% of my income. Maybe a semi-pro/advanced amateur would be a good category.

[tim]

I've sold one photo, and been paid to do a one off job. I don't consider myself a professional.

[liza]

While I sell my portrait and wedding photography and contribute regularly to the local paper, I don't consider myself a "professional." And that's simply because it isn't my primary source of income. My profession (for now) is teaching.

[poke]

Although I get paid for some types of photograhy that I do, I would not consider my skill level to be one that constitutes all that goes along with being a Pro.

I guess there is a very large grey area. I hope to be earning at least 50% of my income from photography within 12 months, so hopefully I will be able to give a different answer by then :D

[markubig]

i'm definitely not a pro, although my friend is offering to buy me dinner if i could shoot his father-in-law's birthday party . . . that should be about 0.0000001% of my income ;) ;) ;)

[Citizensmith]

Although I get paid for some types of photograhy that I do, I would not consider my skill level to be one that constitutes all that goes along with being a Pro.

But that assumes every pro has skill. I know two pros, freinds, who work in a town near me. Both got where they are by being able to exist for a few years whith very little income while they got established. One is a good portrait photographer. The other does landscapes. Sure she has some good photos but a lot are just because she was able to spend time outdoors waiting for the situations to arrise and not having to worry about mortages and such. In a given situation she was actually average at best when matched against other photographers.

I guess what I'm saying is some Pros are good, some are just wealthy, some are both. The wealthy ones may be not better than the average hobbyist though. Skill level is not really an indication of Pro status.

[poke]

...Skill level is not really an indication of Pro status.

I understand what your saying, and I generally agree with you. My point is that although I receive an income, I would not portray myself to people as a pro. For me to feel comfortable saying that to people, I would want to be proficient in the area of photography that I'm working, and be confident that rain hail or shine, I can turn out a quality product.

I currently work as an IT Consultant. When I visit customers, I do so believing that whatever I come up against I can resolve... either because I have the knowledge of that specific situation, or the experience to work out what has gone wrong and fix it.

When I am meeting new Photography clients, I tell them that I am just starting out in paid photography. I show them some of my previous photos ( some of the 4% that turned out :) ) so that they are not completely freaked, then apply the same professional approach and behaviour that I do with IT. It seems that when you are up front with people about what your skill level is, but then act very professionally, people still give you a go. Mind you, the sigh of relieve is visible when you present them with a decent result. :p

I can't wait for the day when I can speak to a new photography client, and have that confidence that I can produce a quality product rain hail or shine. :D... it will make the time between the shoot and the review on the PC far less stressful.

[Jesper]

There have been discussions in the forums before about when you are a Pro, or when you can call yourself a Pro.... it seems that there is no clear, fixed definition, people have different opinions on what it means when you say you're a Pro photographer.

I consider somebody who has photography as their main source of income a professional photographer.

For me, photography is a hobby, I've won a watch once with a photo but never earned money with photography.

[Volatile]

straight up amateur

[sdommin]

i'm definitely not a pro, although my friend is offering to buy me dinner if i could shoot his father-in-law's birthday party . . . that should be about 0.0000001% of my income

Wow, Mark, you're pretty rich. If a dinner costs $10, then your income must be $100,000,000. Could you spare a couple thousand or so?

[Citizensmith]

I can't wait for the day when I can speak to a new photography client, and have that confidence that I can produce a quality product rain hail or shine. :D... it will make the time between the shoot and the review on the PC far less stressful.

Something that I've been doing that helps build confidence and really makes you address what you are doing is teach. It's irregular, and on a volunteer basis for a local non-profit (the students do pay to be there). It makes you think about how to explain what you do. It makes you address in detail how you do it. It makes you consider why you do what you do. I probably learn as much as the students.

So if I teach photography but don't get paid for doing it does that make me a pro-fesh-i-nul?

[markubig]

Wow, Mark, you're pretty rich. If a dinner costs $10, then your income must be $100,000,000. Could you spare a couple thousand or so?

I WISH I MADE THAT MUCH!!! http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gifps. . . . guess i misplaced a few zeros http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif. . . anyway i just meant to say that photography doesn't make me any money . .

hmmm, so do i need to take away zeros or add zeros. . . this always confused mehttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

[Barb42]

The IRS is probably the best judge of who is a pro and who isn't. Those tax returns tell all - at least the IRS thinks so. http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

[russellsnr2]

Hi, I am not pro or ameteur, but at the bottom (lets say ''a wish my photos were like that'',) but I would like to ask Mark a question if I may and that is how do you get the black background on your flower shots and the chess pieces shot,are they shot against a black background or is there settings within the camera that would allow the same effect.

[Kennymc]

To me a professional photographer is a person who makes their living solely from photography it's their job, their livelyhood...
A freelance, like myself, does work for more than one person but has no fixed employer and this can either be part time or as a living...
An amateur photographer is a person who takes photographs for pleasure rather than pay but can also be paid on rare occasions...
Now then, I know some amateurs who have more skill/knowledge and produce better images than some professionals so professional photographers are not based on skill or qualifications but merely on whether they make a full time living from their work...

[markubig]

Hi, I am not pro or ameteur, but at the bottom (lets say ''a wish my photos were like that'',) but I would like to ask Mark a question if I may and that is how do you get the black background on your flower shots and the chess pieces shot,are they shot against a black background or is there settings within the camera that would allow the same effect.

Hi russell -

Have a look at this link (http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/guides/floral_black/floral1.html)for the setup. Olegis linked it a while back on this thread (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48568&highlight=black+floral). i only used black cardboard, but it might be better to use black felt or similar material to avoid light reflecting off of it. I bounced a a tungsten bulb off a wall to illuminate the flowers and increased shadows in PS to really darken the background.

Good luck and have fun!

[aam1234]

Thank you Mark for the link, been looking for something like that for some time.

[russellsnr2]

Thank you for the info Mark, very interesting web site on the link.

[Carzee]

One weekend the OC tasked me to photograph our group for the 2 days and I got the same pay - they didn't inflate it, they didn't deflate it either! I got a pic published in the Army newspaper -hey- national publication!! I sent in a CD full of his res pics, and they chose a pic which was not so good. The ones I liked they must have disregarded. Oh well. At least I found out the limitations of my gear and the benefits of a light tripod vs a heavy ancient one.

But this hobbyist vs pro stuff is all relative. Most of us are using gear which would be in the daydreams of millions of wanna-be shutterbugs in China, India, Africa, and Kiwiland (;)a nation who aspire to afford little luxuries like colored football uniforms, a proper defense force and a speech pathologists for every town).


Stop Press edit: i found the newspaper's online edition and my photo is the third one down the page. WELL. The bigtime!!:rolleyes:

Here is the link (http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armynews/editions/1108/people.htm)

[twl845]

I've never been a professional anything. I have done a good job at most things I've attempted though. Photography is a hobby, although I have fantisized about learning enough to be considered a pro. My shots are better than anyone I know, but no one I know knows what they're doing. Most people I know consider it a good shot if the subjects head hasn't been cut off in the picture. I have really began to shine since I switched to digital photography, and can edit on the fly instead of waiting a week for my pictures to come back from the lab, and discovering i screwed up some how. Now most of my shots are rather good, and occasionally look professional. I'm learning all the time and having fun.

[cjm]

I am just a picture taker. If someone wants to buy a photo from me, I'll gladly take the money. I'm not really ever interested in doing photography for a living, just as I don't paint to become the next Picasso, I picture take for the pure fun of it and for a reason to use my computer after by using it as a digital dark room.

[Jon]

Got paid to do photography in grad school (and darkroom, and drafting). Shooting for myself now, but angling toward selling work after I retire. Where's that put me? I said "amateur".

[neutral]

I've been paid for certain gigs, but I do not consider my self a professional in anyway.

[JAZZ D.P.G.]

Interesting question and responses.:)

I have made money from my photography, but does not begin to rival my 9-5 income.

I have a registered business (not incorporated) that I declare my photography income in, and thankfully it is low enough, and outside the country usually, that I do not need to register to collect taxes for the government. Yet I can, and do, file returns for the write down of equipment and any presentation costs on my taxes.

Should this "sideline" take off before I'm ready to retire from the 9-5, I will have to reconsider some of the above. I am continuing to develope contacts in sports and presentation photography for when I retire. I'm still young (well, comparatively) but do plan on getting out of the 9-5 soon, with a decent income.

I am an amateur.

My work is good, and improving constantly. Lots of errors on the way:lol: :rolleyes:

Will I ever be a PRO? Don't know.

I will make money and will pursue photography, and in some sense that is pro. I will (hopefully:rolleyes: ) one day be called a pro by someone who's values I respect, and that in some sense is a pro.

I think both are required to be considered a pro.

In the meantime, I am one happy PHOTOGRAPHER. :D And that is all that counts.:lol:

[exposingmyself]

"i am whatever you say i am" :cool:

[Rubbahumpy]

if you dont have a holga you can never be a pro

[Carzee]

Well here is are some answers. I especially wanted to know where the word amateur originated. Was it some enthusiast named Mr Amateur? ;)


Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif
http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif One entry found for amateur.
Pronunciation: 'a-m&-(")t&r, -"tur, -"tyur, -"chur, -ch&r
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive

Etymology: French, from Latin amator lover, from amare to love


1 : DEVOTEE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=devotee), ADMIRER (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=admirer)
2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

synonyms AMATEUR (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=amateur), DILETTANTE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dilettante), DABBLER (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dabbler), TYRO (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=tyro+)mean a person who follows a pursuit without attaining proficiency or professional status. AMATEUR (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=amateur+)often applies to one practicing an art without mastery of its essentials <a painting obviously done by an amateur>; in sports it may also suggest not so much lack of skill but avoidance of direct remuneration <remained an amateur despite lucrative offers>. DILETTANTE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dilettante+)may apply to the lover of an art rather than its skilled practitioner but usually implies elegant trifling in the arts and an absence of serious commitment <had no patience for dilettantes>. DABBLER (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dabbler+)suggests desultory habits of work and lack of persistence <a dabbler who started novels but never finished them>. TYRO (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=tyro+)implies inexperience often combined with audacity with resulting crudeness or blundering <shows talent but is still a mere tyro>.


I think I found my answer; Lover. I'll agree to that. It defines me anyway. Working from that premise, is this really a case of shallow 'physical attraction' or a deep bonding love? Well, this particular tree will be judged by its fruit...:cool:

[Moments]

It is always interesting reading these posts. I have to say that a Professional Photographer is some one whos profession is Photography. This question is just as bad as the debate between paid professional firefighters and volunteer firefighters. The paid firefighters acknoledge the volunteers but do not consider them as equals, and the volunteers consider themselves as equals since they do the same thing. I guess we all have to live with lables.

I am a pro and have been for the last 21 years as my entire incone has come from being a photographer. I have been employed by others in the past, I have worked as a freelance day shooter, and I have my own studio now.

A freelance commercial photographer usually is one that does not have thier own studio, but earns thier living from photography. In the wedding trade, a freelance photographer might have a day job, and shoot weddings or other events on the weekends, so it might not be thier profession, just an additional source of income. So the word freelance can mean different things.

An advanced amature might earn some income from photography, and might shoot few weddings, jobs, portraits etc, but has another source for the majority of thier income.

An amature is someone who does photography just because they love it. I think that is how we all started, isn't it?

[soupdragon]

I am not even as good as amateur.

[MadTony]

I have been doing it as a hobby for years, but this January, I started selling photos as a means of making money while in school. I have made almost $1000 in the last 4 months, but I am not considering it my long-term primary source of income, since I will be working as an engineer starting in August. I guess that makes me an advanced-gray-area-ameteur-semipro? Haha. I do it for fun, so that makes me a hobbyist.

[russellsnr2]

Hi. I asked the question HOW TO in this part of the forum can I ask you to look at this & give your views on my first attempt.

[Skip Souza]

All the Pros that I have known all had their own street corner :rolleyes:

Oh, Professional Photographer. :oops:
If I were a pro I would starve to death. I'm not even an accomplished amature. I shoot for my own enjoyement and share occasionally with others. I hope that I get better with practice.

[Michaelmjc]

I wouldn't say I'm professional, but I do get paid for my pictures.

I edited your picture for you. Remember to use rule of thirds when shooting something like that. I adjusted the color and cropped it for you. Not a bad shot.

[rdenney]

I prefer the term "commercial" when people get confused about "professional". It means that one's photography is done for pay.

"Amateur" means that one's photography is done for the love of doing it.

"Professional" means that one has professed to the world that he or she is available for hire.

None of these have much to do with skill, though the unskilled may find that if they profess their availability, nobody comes calling, resulting in commercial failure.

Thus, I am an amateur who has done considerable commercial work. But I have been a professional only for brief periods, and long ago.

Rick "who doesn't see these options in the poll" Denney

[aam1234]

I prefer the term "commercial" when people get confused about "professional". It means that one's photography is done for pay.

"Amateur" means that one's photography is done for the love of doing it.

"Professional" means that one has professed to the world that he or she is available for hire.

None of these have much to do with skill, though the unskilled may find that if they profess their availability, nobody comes calling, resulting in commercial failure.

Thus, I am an amateur who has done considerable commercial work. But I have been a professional only for brief periods, and long ago.

Rick "who doesn't see these options in the poll" Denney

aam "who thinks Rick Denney speaks words of wisdom" 1234

[Medic1]

You should add experienced amateur.....amateur alone makes it sound like a noob.

Nothing wrong with being a newbie...just that I am sure some of the folks on here that clicked amateur have been doing this for a long time

[Longwatcher]

At this time I am a Amatuer Professional Freelance Photographer.
I have not mastered being a professional freelance photographer yet, so therefore I must be an amatuer. Because I love being paid as a free lance photographer.

I must be a professional because I have made myself available for hire.

Definately freelance, Although I have a studio in the home, it is portable, so I don't really think that counts and I mostly sell my work to others to resell.

But what I am and at least 95% if not 100% of this forum should be and that is

PHOTOGRAPHERS 8) 8) :) 8) 8)

and that beats someone who is not any day.


Just my opinion, feel free to ignore.