product shoot (food)

[macobee]

Hi,

I took some Images from soem caviar which i got from a supplier as a sample, this was just done at home...., then when I showed her the pics next time, she asked me to do some product shots for them as they are setting up their website and preparing new flyers and posters etc.

here is the set I made at home: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcoveringa/sets/72157614386780847/

Off course I am very happy they ask me, but am a bit in the dark, as its my first shoot I am fine with only getting paid in free goods (hey im a Caviar lover so thats ok) but what to do, do i need a form or what stating the images are now theirs, do i still kep the rights to these images.....how and what?

if anyone can shine a softbox on this for me it would be very helpful!

Thanks

Marco

[Rubi Jane]

Marco, a very nice series! I can see why she wanted you to shoot some images for her website. Great exposure, nicely composed and beautifully styled.

As for an agreement you can mutually decide what rights she needs but I'd suggest you maintain copyright. These have stock potential if you ever choose to go down that road. Your agreement should outline her usage rights, ex. non-exclusive, unlimited rights for web & print publication. That basically means she can use the images for ever but you can sell them for stock or to another interested client.

[macobee]

Tanks Rubi, I am trying to draft up some things now and get going with this!

Thanks for your positive comments!

Marco

[Dchemist]

Great shots. You might look at Lou Manna's website (http://www.loumanna.com)

[Alleh]

Hey great photos.

Even if you do a trade make up an invoice with a dollar value you then make a separate line item for the trade value and make the total cost due zero. If you don't do that people often interpret that photography has little or no cash value. Also try http://www.useplus.com/home.asp? For licensing terms.

[macobee]

thank you thats all helpful!....so many questions for this newbie geting a bit into the business

[dreamcatcher23]

Excellent photos, well done. Best of luck in your new venture!

Don't under-price yourself. You could get day rates of $2000 here with that quality work if you're reliably consistent.

[macobee]

reliably consistent.....your giving me weak knees now...hahaha

2000@$ day rate.......thats a lot of money.....i was thinking of if its a full day, to ask for 1000$ max, keeping in mind i'd need another day of work at the computer to edit, compose, etc......

anyway thanks for letting me know....I feel a little more confident now.

[dreamcatcher23]

Yeah, well generally you don't charge for the days at computer, just like you don't charge for the days you take your cameras in for service or spend picking out a new PC - that's why "day rates" are high.

You should be confident, and certainly don't let her force you to be lowballed. Take the job for as much caviar as you can - at the end of the day it's a premium product and she'll make a LOT of money if she sells it as a result of the good photography. Then use that as a springboard to get more jobs :-)

Best of luck!

[PhotosGuy]

These might help.

3. Grant of Rights. Upon receipt of full payment, Photographer grants... (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4329570&postcount=2)

License of Rights (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=408066)

[macobee]

Thanks Dreamcatcher

Thanks Photosguy, yes it seems that that gives me a starting point, thank you very much!

[sfaust]

Just to throw in another opinion. Dreamcatcher is right on with the $2,000 per day rate. That is pretty typical for a working food photographer. In fact, one with a studio setup specifically for food photography would probably get on the order of $2,000-$4,000 per day, plus usage. For that amount, the client does expect consistency, excellent problem solving skills, the ability to take their vision and create the image as they see it, balanced and color corrected, post production skills for a variety of media and formats, etc.

While it seems like a lot of money, once you start adding in the overhead of a studio with a full working kitchen (multiple ovens, ranges, etc for simultaneous things cooking at once), high end equipment, client amenities at the studio, etc, it isn't that high after all. They aren't paying for a person with a camera, but for a person with a camera, full kitchen, lounge area, shooting area, wireless, client work area, digital processing room, heat, liability, insurance, etc.

Keep in mind the value you bring to the client, and use that to negotiate. Ie, if they hired a pro, they would easily spend $2,000+ per day. Granted, they will have a nice studio to work in, seasoned photographer, etc. So perhaps $750 per day is reasonable, and you are saving them $1,250 per day. For that savings, they loose the nice studio, gain additional usage, and a photographer that can turn out some nice images, but may not be as fast, or have all the required skills.

By required skills, I'm talking about the ability to make all foods look great. Some foods are very easy to make look good, and others are impossible without knowing the tricks of the trade. In fact, after a shoot, most of the images that makes you salivate over the food in the cookbooks can not even be eaten because of the way they are prepared for a shoot.

So don't sell yourself short. While you probably can't $2,000+ a day without a really good book, proven track record, and a studio, that doesn't mean you should give it away for some caviar either. Your $1,000 a day sounds like a good starting point. But don't present it as a day rate. Rather a fixed fee for a fixed number of images which include post production, etc. That way its obvious that its more than one days work, since in fact thats what you would be delivering. Also note usage, even if you aren't charging for it, bring it up in your estimate as part of your fee (ie, included). They should be exposed to the concept of usage since that is what the industry works from (editorial, commercial, advertising, etc).

Good luck, and have fun!


If they doubt those rates, have them call a few working food photographers in any major city and ask for a quote!

[breal101]

On top of what Stephen already said you could add an additional $600 to $1000+ a day for a food stylist on a typical shoot he talks about. A photographer who can style as well as he shoots is somewhat rare and they're worth everything they might charge.

[sfaust]

Yes, expenses and usage are also added separately. That includes the stylist, assistant(s), food, expendables, etc.

[macobee]

Thanks Guys, this is all very useful info for me. I am having this shoot on Monday.....am looking forward to it, after its all donew and over with ill post you my feedback from tha day.

[macobee]

This is just a quick outtake, lots more editing to do but woud like to hear from you guys what do you think? am i worth the money or not....just be frank, dont need nice words, i need it as it is.

thank you


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3455/3359059517_43a140dee9.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3615/3359059739_d4879fd0de.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3561/3359092785_285e588a82.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3359955326_c4b0295a4f.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3359155909_65e9ed83c6.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3359170047_a249d793e9.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3645/3360002212_17aeedca8b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3574/3360034642_1210e7c067.jpg

[sfaust]

The only way to tell would be to shoot against a comp, or to follow exact instructions from the client and deliver as requested. Its easy to art direct your own images, since you tend to go with what you are familiar with, and can accomplish.

Where you start becoming of value to the client, is when you are on set shooting, and they start throwing things at you, and you take it all with stride. For example, in the first shot the logo is less pronounced than the words Export. A client wouldn't accept this since their log is the focus in that shot, and what would be needed to sell it.

They may want it lit in any number of ways, and may ask that of you. If you can't deliver it, or takes you far too long to work it out, in their eyes you may have failed. A professional needs to deliver consistently, per the AD's instructions or a comp, under pressure, while there may be heavyweights on set.

They are all good shots, some better than the others, but what counts more is consistency, reliability, problem solving, and the speed at which you can execute per instructions on the set. This is where experience comes into play, and past history and reputation. Clients, and especially ad agencies, generally aren't willing to risk their reputation with new talent on without a track record. They way try out a new photographer on smaller simple shoots, low budget, or pro-bono work just to get a feel for what they can do.

So yes, very good images. But worth the money? That's unclear until we can see how you work directed and under pressure.

[macobee]

cool....thanks for the comments, pust me into place, and i appreciate that, i know i got a way to go. thanks for your time to explain.

Cheers

Marco

[muscleflex]

nice shots - you got talent in this!
what lens do you use?

[macobee]

Thank you

erh 50 mm canon 1.4, 17-70 mm sigma, 70-300 tamron and not to forget 100 mm canon 2.8

[sfaust]

Here are more detailed comments from an art directors point of view. I didn't have time last night to add these. Remember, their job is to pick out the faults in an image to improve it. So they look very carefully. Here are comments that I can see most art directors calling just based on my past experience. Some may or may not be relevant based on its intended use, but I hope you find them useful just the same.

First image. See my comments previously on the logo and lighting. I like the image overall, and have similar shots for that same reason. Blue, black, and cool lighting is sexy ;) I can see an art director asking for more rim and edge lighting on the glasses around the bottle without changing the lighting on the bottle itself. There is a vertical line on the right edge of the upper part fo the bottle that isn't on the bottles in the other shots below. Not sure what it is, but that would be an issue with them for sure. Also, there is a dark line running down the middle of the bottle from the logo to the word export. That should have been removed in post. The hot spot at the neck should also be cleaned up as its too hot. Same with the hot spot under the word export at the bottom. If you can, I would shoot this again and work on these points. It would be an awesome portfolio image IMO.

Second image from the top. Looks like the same setup from the first shot with different lighting. The blue light looks to be coming from a cut out below the bottle, or behind the bottle. They may ask for the Beluga name on the shot glasses to stand out more, so it may have to be lit differently so it will show up better naturally, or in post. The background is kind of drab IMO and doesn't fit with the image. The bottle and glasses seem to want a clean look to them like your first image, and the legs in the background just add a distraction, and are cut off and seem to float in the air. I would guess it would be a cutting room floor image IMO.

I like the style and feel of the third one. Lighting looks good, etc. They only issue I can see an AD taking with the image is that the Logo is hidden in all the bottles. They would probably have the angle and bottles adjusted enough to see the logo prominently while still keeping the same feel to the image. Also, there is a air bubble in the bottle in the lower right that would have to be fixed.

The fourth one is technically fine, but to me personally isn't visually interesting. Lighting is very basic, composition is busy, and nothing really stands out. It might be fine for a generic catalog shot, or cropped to fit some layouts.

Fifth image. Focus appears off to me. The object that is in focus is the shell just about in the middle. The caviar and foreground fish are out of focus, so its telling the viewer that the important object in the image is the shell. IMO, it should be the fish in the foreground, or the fish/caviar in the background.

Sixth image, the crop on the right side isn't symetrical. For an image like this, they are very picky that its perfectly symmetrical is thats the intent of the image. The crop at the bottom is also a little tight on one piece of candy and it gets cut off. Easy enough to just square it up right when shooting. Picky I know, but I've run into stuff like this all the time.

On the second to the last, they would need the reflection on the top logo cleaned up as it obscures the logo. Thats a definite no no. They might also ask for something in the background rather than a black void. Even if its still dark, a hint of something is generally better than a complete void. Both of these would be very easy to fix.

In the last shot, I can easily see an art director asking you to clean up the reflection of the cover on the bowl. Ie, not move it, but clean it up so its smooth. Also clean up the rim of the bowl so that there isn't the dark spot right in the center. And on the cover in the foreground, most would want those reflections cleaned up as well as its too busy, not spot, etc. The glass in the rear, they might ask to see the entire rim rather than a silver. If you set this shot again, you can judge for yourself how easy it might be to clean up those details on the set without changing the lighting on everything else.

[macobee]

sfaust thank you very much i very much appreciate this kind of critique......i know i still have a lot to learn and do so because you guys give me a chance to learn!

Thanks you!

[tcphoto1]

I hope that you have everything in writing before you start the project. It is imperative that you have a signed contract containing a detailed description of the images to be shot, how they will be delivered, use of images, term of use and payment details. Once these items are agreed upon, it is time to plan the shoot and make sure that everyone understands what is expected of them.

[Rubi Jane]

First off, overall I think you did a good job! For me, generally the highlights seem a little uncontrolled, making them distracting rather than accentuating the subject. Highlights can help make the whole image pop, they can also overwhelm an image.

Glass, especially with labels that need to be precisely lit can be a challenge. I came across what I thought to be an excellent tutorial video regarding lighting still life shots. Lots of good info provided and setup of the shot from start to finish. I'll see if I can find the link - it might offers some insight for you.

I agree, consistency, creative variation and problem solving play a huge role, especially if the AD has a preconceived image in their head.

[macobee]

Thanks Tcphoto and Rubi Jane

[Rubi Jane]

Here's the series of videos that you might garnish some tips from.

ProPhotoLife.com (http://www.prophotolife.com/video-library/)

Browse through the videos and check out the studio lighting ones. They reduce glare on a watch face, use mirrors and offer up a number of tips. They do a good job of showing the result of modifying the light step by step so you can see the effects, then they recap it. Bottom line, I think it serves a good lesson in problem solving when shooting studio product shots, and before you can problem solve you need to see what the problems are.

Hope the videos offer some tips for you.

[macobee]

Thank you very much appreciate this all a lot!

Marco

[splitslim]

I think you have some fantastic shots macobee. I've been taking a look at your work for a while now and see fantastic potential in your talent for capturing great food images. I like some of these, but not all. I think the series you showed on the first page was more impressive then this one.

Keep experimenting and trying new things. You have talent, now show everyone!

[macobee]

Thanks Splitslim :) much appreciated

[imagesbybarbara]

Can you tell me how you have your studio flashes set up? GREAT WORK.

[macobee]

hi Barbara,

I was using flash strobes, canon 430EXii to be specific, and the lighting set ups changed conastantly depending on wjhat we were shooting, there is no one sure fire way to set your lighting if you shoot chocolate, reflective bottles, tabletop stuff and then whole set ups as well.

[imagesbybarbara]

Thanks!